Kathmandu Juggernaught's Finances

[walkon]

Read in the little Melbourne paper today of Kathmandu's first half year financial statement. Net profit up $10.7M(10.7%), total sales up $157.6(10.5%), Aussie sales up $96.8M(14.8%). From the looks of this, they are one retailer that will still be supplying products to the outdoors community for awhile.

I know there's a lot of Kathmandu bashers on this forum and some of their points of view are valid. The pricing structure and returns policy irks quite a few I people I know. But lets face it, returning a product because you've changed your mind does cost money, though if a product is faulty I've never had a problem with a Kathmandu refund/exchange. Their pricing stucture... I'm not going there as it sucks but obviously it works for them. Quality of gear is variable to, though I only buy what suits me from any shop so that's par for the course from any retailer too.

So everyone should rejoice that this Aussie company, well they are from NZ so that means we can claim them as aussie, is doing alright.

[wayno]

if you shop around especially online overseas you'll get better quality for a better price and or better value for your money.... Kathmandu just copy what other brands are doing with varying success in the quality of what they produce. the materials they use are some of the best, the designs are relatively average to below average.... a lot of people still want to buy from bricks and mortar shops for whatever reason, because they can see and touch the goods. or ignorance of whats available in online shopping or some psychological factor to do with physically going shopping or being impulsive in a shop...

[Hallu]

The problem is Australia or NZ still haven't got a strong community of people who will review Kathmandu gear in practical websites. You see reviewers in blogs, yes, but they're not organized into well known websites. Most American and European brands have reached a point where you can just google a product and see what it's like. It's also progressively the case for some well known NZ/Aus brands. For Kathmandu it's hard to find reviews, and there's none on their website. So because they're the only ones in that price range, people buy their products blindly... It's also very hard to find foreign brands at good prices in Aussie stores. So thanks to the pretty liberal import policy (no taxes for an order < 1000 $) passionnate bushwalkers do as Wayno does. To make a difference to Kathmandu's policy, it would also take occasional bushwalkers to do the same. But Kathmandu have big and beautiful stores, they know their business, and they know their targets : mostly families.

[wayno]

Its just another chain store brand like mountain designs or macpac.

[wayno]

A lot of people dont shop around . U see them dressed head to toe in a chain store brand. Like sheep. Amazes me when northern tourists buy kmandu down under when they have superior brands of their own.

[walkon]

I find it funny that most people's main issue with kathmandu is the price of their products in relation to the perceived quality. If they can sell their lines for the amount they do, well good luck to them.

Wayno I suggested the same in regards to macpac/mountain designs recently to someone and nearly had my head taken off. All the chains have some really good products and some crap which they probably make the highest profit margins on. It really depends as to what level that you rate your past time as to which retailer is more suited to you.

[wayno]

you could still do worse than those brands. i prefer to spend my money on the companies that originate designs, not the ones that plagiarize them and try to charge similar amounts. Thats just my choice, but most people wouldnt realise which companies do which, and thats life. You make a decision on the information you have at the time....
Theres already been threads on this forum with people discussing the controversies over the brands mentioned before...
first world problems?

[walkon]

I recently bought a jacket from Marmot, when I looked at the tags at home I saw it was made in Bangladesh. Was it made ethically? I dont know though personally I doubt it. I wouldn't have bought the jacket without research if I had known. On a recent trip to Malaysia I saw an aussie couple haggling over a $4 tshirt, which was I rip off of a well known brand, and when you think about it it leaves a sour taste in your mouth. Keeping the poor downtrodden. Hey now I think about it where do kathmandu, macpac, mountain designs and the like make their gear.

[wayno]

off the top of my head the only major outdoor clothing brands i can think of that manufactures outside of asia are Westcomb, made in Canada, and Patagonia, made in South America.
Arcteryx used to be made in canada, now made in a range of asian countries, not sure if any of the manufacturing still happens in Canada..
you name the asian country and its probably producing outdoor gear,, almost every bit of Mont Bell gear i have seems to be made in a different country... Philippines, Laos, Vietnam, Thailand....
as for ethics, various companies make various claims on ethical manufacturing....
of course theres plenty of cottage industry brands manufacturing in western countries.

[Gadgetgeek]

Mountain equipment co-op (the famous canadian store) has its gear made all over the world. However they do take great pains to make sure that gear is made is a way that is not only high quality, but is beneficial to the local economy, and also assists in aiding communities. They have brought products to market that have not followed those paths, or have been unknowing knock-offs, and they have made corrections. Its not a perfect system, but they are openly trying and detailing their efforts, not just a mouse line on the bottom of the web page.

That said, I think that the power of the internet is putting the little cottage guys in the same league as the big dogs, since reputation goes farther than marketing. Also once you hit the level of specialization that most of us here are at, beyond the coleman two burner and walmart tent, the research that gets done allows little companies to be compared favorably along side big ones. For the guy who doesn't know or care, there are plenty of BCFs and BassPro shops to suit. But now I can get semi-custom gear at near retail price, and with a bigger profit margin for the maker. To me that's a good deal. The labor intensive nature of clothing manufacture means that we are probably a bit farther away from that for most clothing, but to be honest, I'd rather pay a little more for better clothes. If that can be done off-shore in a responsible way, I'm all for it.

[walkon]

I was just researching a whole stack of hiking suppliers on workplace conditions and I've got to say Mount equipment were impressive. So were patagonia and kathmandu amoung others. Marmot talks it up but at the moment I can't find if they actually check working conditions and I havent found if the are on any valid bodies that promote fair work conditions yet.

Probably should be on a new thread, I think I will keep correlating and put it up

[Hallu]

The difference between Kathmandu and let's say, MacPac, is the size of their store, at least in Melbourne. Kathmandu stores are enormous, like a supermarket, while MacPac have regular small shops.

[wayno]

from what i've seen kathmandu have moved into bigger shops even though they arent necessarily stocking that much more gear, it's just more spread out. I wonder if theres a psychology to bigger shops. perhaps people are more likely to purchase in a big shop? you're paying more rent so why else would you move into bigger premises, i've seen them move to a bigger shop during the recession in an area that was struggling to find tenants for all the shops... macpac shops dont seem to have a shortage of gear in their smaller shops, its just more packed in and arguably a similar amount of stock to some of the kathmandu shops at least.. i've been to kathmandu outlets shops and they just pack as much as they can into a shop that may be smaller than their retail shops... oops did i admit i've been into a kathmandu shop?
mountain designs are like macpac, a massive amount of stock crammed into the available shop of more modest size than kathmandu shops... The north face shop take the spread out model except in their outlet shop which takes the crammed model.... Bivouac are somewhere in between. personally i'm primed for a deal and i'll hunt it out as much as i can and buy from whereever to get it... i dont think i'm swayed from big shops. I research the gear for its quality and will buy from any small back street shop or online shop if i find it at a good price... in queenstown, most of the players use the spread out shops, except one which really packs everything into a small pace but their prices are the best and the quality is just as good, if i need anything in queenstown, first place i go is the crammed shop. i quite like it, i see them as a bit of an underdog without the advertising budget and pulling power of the big players but they are doing their best to foot it with the big boys and they are selling good gear, the top does look cramped an a bit untidy. no flash vendor displays but the flash shops arent going to make a jots bit of difference when you're using your gear... what may make a difference is the gear you bought regardless of which shop you bought it from... its a shame more people dont shop around and just go to the big flash chain stores by default... theres plenty of information available on the internet to enable you to look for other options and not pay for the massive high street rental prices in your purchase price. you buy online overseas and you are virtually getting wholesale prices.. torpedo 7 seem to be the only big online site down under, just have to be aware the brand quality can vary a bit. they are doing massive business too and expanding at the rate of knots, they also own R&R sports in NZ who have bricks and mortar shops... the other sad fact is that the big chain stores killed off the independant shops that often had superior service and knowledge

[blacksheep]

Wayno it is an untrue argument that Kathmandu do not design product. They have talent there, and as I said 12 months ago, I think they are the only ones investing and growing their R&D teams and processes (as opposed to the other domestic verticals). They are using more innovation than their competition- this coupled with core business lines put them in a powerful place. Keep watching, and as I said also 12 months back, buy shares if you are a shares kinda guy- they will win for a while longer still, (especially as the money behind their biggest "me too" may be under a tad more stress nowadays)

[walkon]

If I have an issue with a manufacturers product I sometimes email them explaining why and how their product can be made better. Often its just a slightly different cut, stitch here or a bit of extra material there. Kathmandu would have to be one of the most responsive in their communications back and sometimes an extended dialog re alterations. Still havent received any free gear from them though

[wayno]

whats unique about recent kathmandu designed gear that hasnt been done elsewhere?

[Empty]

A lot of people dont shop around . U see them dressed head to toe in a chain store brand. Like sheep. Amazes me when northern tourists buy kmandu down under when they have superior brands of their own.

Had to laugh when I read this. Just back from a two day walk and a quick inventory of my clothing suggests that I am one of those sheep. Apart from my undies, hat and shoes I am Mr Kathmandu. I could be one of their catalogue models if I had a better head.

Not too unhappy about it either. I have literally flogged some of their clothes over many years and never had a problem. One polar fleece gets dragged out as soon as the temp drops every year for the past 11 and it shows no sign of letting up. It has outlasted many other brands hands down. Just bought some of their top of the range socks and they are by far the best hiking socks I have owned.

I live in the country and it is a choice of Kathmandu or snowgum. I only buy their clothes and only during the sales and I cannot fault anything I have bought with their name on it.

More power to them I say.

[DarrenM]

whats unique about recent kathmandu designed gear that hasnt been done elsewhere?

That's R&D keeping an eye on what works and replicating good design features from other gear. Having bought quite a range of Kathmandu products over the years, I find some of it works exceptionally well, and has stood up to quite a beating.

Once again it's important to me to hear exactly what experience you have with the specific brand and why you are posting about it being inferior without giving examples.

Not interested in "experience is anecdotal from conversation"....

[wayno]

peaks on the raincoat hoods are floppy, a decent peak in my book needs enough rigidity in it to stop flapping about in the wind and keep the rain off your face better.
i havent seen them with drain flaps inside the storm flaps to reduce rain getting in..
down jackets,, i've found other brands make warmer down jackets for the weight with higher loft down, pack dowdn smaller, like mont bell a sub 400gm jacket with baffles in the compartments. lighter shell material. mont bell has much bigger ranges of down jacket design esp for really cold weather... mont bell also make lighter rainshells with good features.
they dont have the same range of fleece materials as other brands with more recent fleece materials, lighter and warmer, like rab or montane, mountain hardwear, the north face....
synthetic insulated jackets weigh twice as much as montbells...
i've seen various other brands put a lot more design into better cut for moving around in... the brands i've already mentioned plus arcteryxs and mountain equipment.
havent seen any of their rainshells mixing up different fabrics to maximise on weight saving and strength where its needed

as i've said before you can still do much worse than kathmandu, their gear can still do the job. it depends how much you want to buy better gear as to whether you'll buy it or not...
i have kathmandu polypro thermal underwear, it's perfectly good clothing.
but its not my brand of choice when i'm walking any distance in the outdoors.
i've had issues finding pants that fit me as well as other brands,
theres far better softshell materials on the market and range of softshell material than kathmandu use.. i've got outdoor research, rab, marmot softshell gear and the material and fit and features is far better than what i've tried at kathmandu shops.'
thats all i can recall off the top of my head.

[blacksheep]

Saying there are examples of more innovative products is one thing, and of course it is obviously true, but from there you leap to saying they have no design, only ripping off other brands- that is untrue and unfair.
I am not a customer of theirs, but I think they are moving forward faster than most.

[walkon]

I'm not a kathmandu knocker, I've owned their products for years and havent really had any problems with it. Though I would say you can get better stuff elsewhere. That said, today I went to four different outdoorsie retailers and they had the best products of them all in most of what I was looking for, yes they were the dearest. I'm doing the OT next weekend and didn't have the time to drive all the way into the city, cost of two hours travel plus tolls plus carparking fees, so I just paid up. Would have liked slightly different cuts on the clothes I bought though I know that I have to go to three different shops to get exactly what I'd prefer. Not bad really.

Wayno the polyprop is kathmandu's base model of thermal wear and their top range of thermals have been good for me on extended trips. Though I prefer merino thermals from elsewhere to sleep in. Actually the best thermal pants kathmandu have have are great as they have an opening in the front of them which makes it easier to have a leak in and not many others have thatat all. I agree that there are better products that others make though as one stop shop its not bad.

[DarrenM]

Ok, so first thing, thanks for your reply Wayno.

So I've deduced that you only have the polypro thermal underwear and like most of us find it ok for average use.

The Jackets...My wife owns Northface, Macpac, Marmot and a Kathmandu Shells, all of which are targeted for very similar use and conditions. I can also add Paddy Palin to the list. Her Kathmandu Jacket is used to commute in the rain on her bike. It has a slightly softer inner hood material compared to the others but has performed no differently whatsoever while riding at 30kph in the rain.

This particular Jacket retailed for $599....our purchase price was $199. Another topic

Another good review of the Jacket (Nerius jacket) - http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?page_id=333048





Down Jackets....we own but not Kathmandu so I wont comment on until we have used them....Comparing to Mont Bell maybe an unfair comparison.

Fleece Jackets...The ones we have are basic and have been used extensively for years in the Backcountry and daily use around town. They work. My wife has one that is over 10 years old and is still going strong.

We have a fairly big range of Hiking and casual wear and the current shorts I use for work have lasted as long as my Hard Yakka and King Gee work wear.

I have been using a small Kathmandu daypack very heavily (3-4 days a week) as my MTB and trail running pack for over 8 years straight. Not a single issue, durability or otherwise.

If you are sensible about what you are comparing to I think you will find the gear for the most part works and is reasonable value for money if you are smart about when you purchase.

I understand you don't always need to buy a piece of gear to pick out the things you don't like about it by looking at it in store. Some of your points are completely valid but I want people to build opinions on any brand through personal experience in the outdoors, not in a shop, and certainly not hearsay. As for not finding many reviews for the gear online?...Maybe those that own Kathmandu gear can give some more personal experiences with them.

[wayno]

i use rainhsells in winds up to 100kph+ and kathmandu doesnt cut it compared to my montane shell. but thats me as i said i'm not writing off kathmandu gear, it can do the job. but there is better gear out there if you want it...
i have various other bits of kathmandu gear, fleeces, i've had kathamndu rainshells. i have their windfleeces. but i dont use it for my longer trips , for various reasons, its not as good as the other brands i use IMO
depends what you're doing and where you're doing it in NZ i can be above 2500m and or in severe weather and every other type of weather and i want very good gear and i choose other brands.

[wayno]

no shortage of people buying overseas through online shops as well.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/small-busines ... d=11229486

[GPSGuided]

I have an old Kathmandu fleece vest from at least 10+ years ago and it fits great and is warm. Very well made and lasting the distance. Last year I was in one of their stores and one of their senior employee picked it out straight away. My impression is that their quality is no longer as they were and the design and features are more middle of the road for volume sale. Obviously their gears work (most), but my objection to them is their pricing strategy. Mark up to fair retail pricing by 20% may be ok but grossly marking up by 100% and more is just ridiculous. Claiming 60-80% sale reduction is just blatent dishonesty.

[wayno]

+1 GPS guided
kathmandu split off from Alp Sports who were originally making serious outdoor clothing for serious walkers and climbers, you'd see people using it high in the mountains. So they had a good pedegree to start with, today the clothing is targeted a lot at back packers and outdoor travellers in general.. clothing is designed to be stylish as opposed to being primarily for people thrashing it in the back country.
Bivouac also split off from Alp Sports and they took on the mantle of providing the top end quality climbing and walking gear...
there was obviously a difference of philosophy inside the company requiring the split, cant recall if jan cameron was involved with alp sports.

[DarrenM]

Obviously their gears work (most), but my objection to them is their pricing strategy.

Agreed, and it seems to be coming a common strategy. What surprises me is the general consumer's inability to see it for what it is. I guess outdoor types shop around for gear and understand the sale cycles, not dissimilar to petrol cycles.
We don't like it, but we know how it works.

The second point is trying to figure out why people continue to try and make comparisons to high end specific gear when it is clearly not the target market. Nothing wrong with the gear for it's intended use.

[wayno]

i wouldnt make the comparison if it wasnt for the fact you can pay a similar or better than the kathmandu sale price and buy other brands and get better quality and or value for your money

[DarrenM]

Well Wayno, you have given me an idea. I really do like the idea of testing gear that is of lesser quality and or value in the publics eye. As you do, I like to spend time in the Backcountry here in winter in sometimes pretty horrendous blizzard conditions. I always buy decent high end gear for that reason and have a range of shells that work well.

I'll look into getting hold of some gear that fits the category and use it snow kiting, snowboarding, skiing and general backcountry shenanigans throughout the season. I'll give some honest thoughts and reviews....it could go either way!

[icefest]

I know some kathmandu equipment may not appropriate for what I do, nevertheless they do have some good designs in-store.

Namely:
The gaiter under-foot lashes with steel wire and hypalon. (Tougher where it matters most, but still tightenable on the sides)
Their rebanding of the fire maple stove. (not in-house design but not bad quality)
The plastic bag liners (people who hike very little don't need an expensive cuben fibre drybag, and it has checkers on it)