Rainshell Jacket design

[wayno]

to a certain extent i am repeating information thats been said here before but I"m picking up regional trends in rain jacket design that i've seen commented on outside of this forum.

and i'm starting to think along the following lines

Don't trust american reviews...
I've just ditched my columbia peak to peak jacket, it had rave reviews everywhere but the jacket wasnt being sold down under at the time, so i bought one without being able to try it on... and it had the classic flaws of most american designed jackets that I"ll outline below.
very few american jackets compare to the best jackets designed in europe and some down under
down under make some of the most rock solid jackets around
the northern hemisphere have refined lightweight jacket design more
a lot of the american jackets have a poor cut, too bulky in the body, inadequate hoods for severe weather.
often the jacket just isnt designed well to be easily move around in, tight in some places loose in others.
american jackets are more likely to be designed for overweight people
venting, don't believe all the hype on the latest breathable membranes,, the best way to make a jacket breathe is to open it up.
jackets with pit zips. core vents, vented pockets are far superior for breathing than the most breathable shells without venting...
there are good waterproof zips that can keep the water out pretty well in severe weather if you have to close the shell up but sweat will be one of your biggest problems walking in a shell...
unless you're consistently walking a a severely sub zero environment, vents are your best answer for breathability.
having said that membranes vary a lot in breathability when they arent saturated with water on the outside. some cheaper brands can use membranes that dont breath anywhere near as well, making vents even more important
the best northern hemisphere jacket companies

Haglofs
Montane
Rab
Arcteryx
Mountain Equipment
Mammut
The North Face and outdoor Research (but only their most expensive designs, the rest is mediocre.)
Westcomb (read nothing but good things in reviews, but mainly from americans so the jury is out)

there may be other brands but i havent seen enough positive comments to rank them alongside the above companies.

Mont, One Planet and Earth sea sky come up as two southern hemisphere companies making well designed jackets if you like a more heavyweight garment. although their breathability isnt as good as lighter weight garments and some of the expensive northern hemisphere garments
there are other heavy duty brands that are hunting brands like Swazi or Huntech (stopped trading), suited to people bush bashing, i'm not familiar with other hunting brands. but they are an option, a lot of overseas brands just arent designed for heavy duty bush bashing.


and yes most northern hemisphere jackets are too short for a lot of peoples liking, you often have to get a southern hemisphere jacket, there are other southern hemisphere companies that are aping what is going on in the northern hemisphere, they are using good materials but the design still falls a bit short of the best northern hemisphere designs.

places like scandanavia and britain have some of the most consistently worst weather of populated places in the world where outdoor gear is made, those places seem to be great laboratories for getting design right... if you walk regularly in those places you will often be walking with your rainshell with the hood up and done up tight to keep the elements out. and I think the design there reflects that. Europeans havent succumbed to obesity as much as Americans yet and the designs reflect that..
not that all americans are fat, but they have compromised too many of their designs for average americans rather than fit long distance walkers for the sake of selling more.

the following is common sense to experienced bush walkers but in the past I havent been thorough enough when i've tried on coats. and made bad choices

if you're able to get hold of a jacket to try one on before buying, put it on, do it right up. move around, do the hood right up and see how much you can move your head around, does the hood still let you move your head freely and keep covering your face?

move your arms around, crouch down with your arms forward like you would at a campsite or getting something out of your pack, can you move freely? is there restriction?
stand up put your arms above your head. does the jacket ride up? is there restriction of movement again?
pull the coat out at teh waist. do you think it comes out too far? will it just let too much air in on a cold day?

how heavy is the coat? are you bush bashing? or going to be doing a lot of rock scrambling? do you think the fabric is heavy enough to stand up to it?
are you never going to bush bash or do little rock scrambling? you're not going to need the heavier jackets
how often will you walk in bad weather? that also determines how heavy a jacket you will need, whether the collar stops under your chin or closes up to your nose. whether you will need a stiffer brimmed peak on the hood, and a hood that closes down to cover most of your face or not.

dont let me put you off a jacket designed a certain way, if you arent interested in spending a lot of money and you're not interested in a lot of walking in bad weather you wont be so fussy on design, but if like me you've spent a lot of time living in a badly designed jacket in bad weather you're probably needing a better designed jacket if you're not totally easy going
theres a big variety in what you can get on the market in design quality and price
and the well designed jackets are seldom cheap. the designers know they are sought after by serious outdoors people and they know they can charge a premium for that. and often do... maybe buying second hand is an answer to affordability if you want to get around the high prices or holding out for an especially good sale.

i'm not saying i've given a definitive list of the top brands, there are a lot of brands out there, some lesser known but still extremely good, they dont sell as much gear because of price and they don't have the massive marketing budgets of the big companies.

[stuey69]

Some nice thoughts in there Wayne.
I've had a range of rain jackets/overpants over time, but in recent times I found Mountain Hardware and frankly, I like their stuff.
Not cheap, but effective, and afterall, that's the name of the game.
Keep those reviews/thoughts coming, always interesting.

[wayno]

havent had that much experience using mountain hardware clothes , but they do have their devotees...
i'm not automatically writing any brand off i left out. its hard to cover them all. I"m throwing out some of the names that seem to stand out to me...
i wouldnt totally write off various other brands but i'm also leaving out some that have sparked contentious debate in the past, some brands that have had their own posts in the past to do with that contention.

[Stibb]

So why exactly did you ditch your Peak 2 Peak?
I got the impression from your earlier posts that you really liked it and you were recomending it a few times when people asked about rain jackets..

Mr Stibb have one too and he couldn't be happier. It hasn't been used extensively but it has seen several full days of sweaty walking in pouring cold rain and sleet and I was very envious when he was dry and comfy at the end of the day. Yes, it is a short jacket but that is the way he wants it. I bought it for $175 which is great value IMO. I'm upgrading from a totally worn out Mountain Equipment to a Power Peak (the ladies version of Peak2Peak) soon.

[wayno]

the hood wasnt big enough, possibly partly because my long neck ate into the available space.. the more i used it, the more i realised its limitations, i didnt use the hood a lot to start with, but when i did have to use it more, i wasnt that happy with it, maybe i'm fussy..... its not a hood i'd want to have to spend a lot of time using....
it wasnt that i couldnt get the hood up..., if i looked down the hood would ride back on my head too much for my liking and i had trouble twisting my head very far.... it may not be a problem for people with shorter necks, the design is supposed to cope with someone who is 5 foot eleven and that is how tall i am, but it is probably more for someone who is more of a normal built five foot eleven. but for this issue i would have kept the jacket. i'm taking the chance to get a jacket with a higher neck line this time as well for better coping with severe weather.

[wayno]

i had the first version of peak 2 peak it didnt have a helmet compatible hood. the new version has a helmet compatible hood, which may address the issue of the hood but i cant get hold of one to try on to confirm in advance. so i'm opting to go for a montane jacket instead. the peak 2 peak is more generic cut, baggy in the body, that wasnt an issue for me really but i've decided to go for something less bulky in cut this time as well.

[wayno]

i think i also made the mistake of not scrutinising the jacket enough because the reviews were so good.
i have had it a while, so it wasnt so bad i was put off with it quickly, the hood was borderline for what i needed.... and it took me a while to wake up to that... without the reviews i ay have given it a bigger grilling when i first tried it on and decided it wasnt for me...
i guess its like boots dosnt matter how good everyone else says they are, if they don't fit properly its all academic...

[wayno]

you see in this pic,, the hood looks like it fits this gent OK
I didnt have so much space to play with with my hood. large size should be big enough for me bu wasnt .

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CFwVJu3jdro/T ... 020129.JPG

[wayno]

i'm not convinced that i've ever owned a really well designed jacket. i've been happy to different degrees by what i've owned in the past or disatisfied over time depending on the jacket.
someone more experienced than me in reviewing jackets believes americans are more likely to be wearing a baseball cap in their jacket than using the hood and he thinks a lot of their designs are more suited for people walking the dog than bushwalking...
he says american hoods dont stand up to severe weather as well the brims dont tend to be as stiff and are more likely to flapp around in the wind, and the arms are shorter and more likely to ride up as you move.
the best reviews for jackets i'm reading regarding cut are coming more from europe. european reviews of american jackets often arent flattering.., i'm a lean build, i'm less suited to the bulky american jackets. and more suited to the more trim designs which the europeans make more of...

[Stibb]

If you ditch it because it doesn't fit you, fair enough. But, I wouldn't necessarily dismiss it as flawed in design because of that. It fits my hubby perfect and although he's not the skinniest guy around it fits him (and work) much better than his old Helly Hansen (Danish) jacket. I've had a Haglöfs jacket before and never liked the fit. There are lots of (good) brands and models out there and it is a matter of finding what fits you (which is not always easy!). I usually find Columbia clothes in general fit me better than many other brands. So, if you say their design is flawed...

I do wonder why it is not sold down here though? I remember asking about it at Mountain Design when it was still very new and they could quote a price then ($300+ something) but i still haven't seen it around.

[wayno]

sale on tday only for columbia but you'll need a mail forwarding company or friend to ship it from the states

http://www.altrec.com/columbia/womens-peak-power-shell

[wayno]

columbia have had the peak to peak and peak power in aus but only from time to time....
mainly they have their older gear selling down under, i wonder if they just use it as a dumping ground for that purpose.
those jackets have been out for a while now and have moved onto version 2 but still little sign of version 1 down under so dont expect much from columbia regarding the latest gear

maybe i'm being elitist about gear design,,, or i'm reading too many elitist reviews from people who want gear designed for fit lean people. but american gear does tend to be designed more to cope with obese people. a fair few reviewers tend to be of the lean mean variety and perhaps expect other outdoors people to fit into their category
i'm mainly in the lean category because of fussy eating more than any other reason, i used to pack and extra 20 kilos once apon a time and may have looked on american gear more favourably then....
so maybe i should adjust my statements, if you are generously proportioned you may want to pay more attention to american brands
its not uncommon for american sizings to be one size bigger than their european sizing counterparts, ie a medium american is a large european and asian sizings can be even more sizings out , so i dont want to get too involved in recommending asian gear as good as some brands like mont bell are i'm not familiar with their sizings and i know a lot of people like their gear...

[blacksheep]

You've thought about this, so it's interesting that you suggest One Planet are making some of the better rainwear pieces in Southern Hemispere. Which ones that they are making do you recommend?

[wayno]

part of what i'm saying is from reading a range of feedback from various people in public forums and private conversations on brands in general, i can't categorically state models from all the brands i mention, its opinion, if we start talking individual models this could descend into a disection of individual models
i mentioned the peak to peak because i can speak from my experience and someone wanted elaboration,
if i mention individual models of jackets others are more familiar with i cant speak with authority that that level. i am reiterating my understanding of what others have mentioned , in the case of one planet I cant give comment on individual models of one planetoff the top of my head.
again this is a massive subject , and yes its subjective and speculative .

[blacksheep]

do they make rainwear other than the Wangi they have supplied for commercial use?

[wayno]

dont they?

http://www.oneplanet.com.au/outdoor-ed- ... wangi.html

[Mountain Rocket]

dont they?

The answer to blacksheeps question is obviously no.

[wayno]

cam. i'm not an expert on each and every model made by the various companies. and whether they are for public sale or not.
i'm offering my impressions,

[wayno]

dont they?

The answer to blacksheeps question is obviously no.

cams original message was actually "they don't make raincoats"

that was my answer to that question then he changed it after i posted my response to ask about whether they made coats other than to commercial people rather than post it as a seperate response.

so it doesnt actually read correctly as per the original thread
i should have quoted the original message

[iGBH]

I've taken advantage of Cam's generous Christmas sale offer to Bushwalk members to pick up a Macpac Prophet XPD.

A very worthy mention in this thread if we are talking quality southern hemisphere jackets. Design for my needs is A1.

But Cam, if i can ask - how many XXL Prophet's have you sold? I'm 183cm and weigh 80kg, so not small. I'm getting the medium as even the large (which is my normal size in most brands, and even the resolution jkt) is massive on me. I'm amazed given the amount of extra material on the XXL that you can afford to offer it at the same price!!!

Reminds me of a sleeping bag Kathmandu once made (think it was called the snow goose?). It was designed as a lightweight bag or alternatively second bag for cold conditions. The first batch we received were 2.3 metres long - not including the hood!!!

[Ent]

A friend has a very old Goretex rain jacket that I have long admired for it length, cut and robustness. I checked what brand it was and it was made by One Planet but I have not seen One Planet rain gear in shops myself but then One Planet does a lot of industry grade gear for major corporate clients so maybe it might of come from that area. Not sure how old it is but must be quite old but in excellent condition despite years of use. Longevity and One Planet tend to go hand in hand with more than a few AKING packs in regular use and well loved by their owners.

While I respect the trend to lighter gear it does not come without some trade-offs. For serious off track wanders my Paddy Pallin Vista jacket and pants get packed despite the weight penalty in my McMillan pack. I look at a lot of outer-shell wear and there in my opinion there appears to be confused or flawed thinking with some of the models. Montane for example aims at lighter weight and generally comes up with some good designs that appear to be “stolen” by other brands. No issue with Montane’s approach but for serious off-track walking a jacket using a mixture of heavy and light fabrics can be quickly damaged in the lighter weight panels even though it would on tracks give many years of excellent use. Indeed when taking my Shadow in goes the Montane gear as not only lighter it takes up less space so I can use a smaller and lighter pack.

A good example of sensible jacket design for off track walking is the Paddy Pallin Vista jacket made in ProShell Goretex. The basic design has been refined over many years. Sadly, in PP’s push towards mediocrity of fashion and travel wear this classic is no longer made. But on the good news front is Mountain Design has been gradually improving the cut of their Stratus jacket so I brought one to try out. It is the lower level Performance version of Goretex but looks to be ok but I have not used it in anger. I also brought the matching MD pants that are a very basic cut with say the Mont ones being so much better in cut but rather average in stitching quality. The special pricing was comparable with overseas’ pricing so looks like at least MD is prepared to match it with the USA mail order companies. Both jackets have the same weight material throughout so can handle the intrusion of scrub and unplanned encounters with rocks. However, they are not light by any definition so not going to be darlings of the UL converts.

In my humble opinion, a current example of flawed thinking is the MacPac Hollyford. As mentioned on more than a few threads this jacket has not covered its maker in glory. It appears to be a traditional design so weighs a fair bit. No issue with that but then it uses lighter weight panels so compromises its intended use as a scrub hound jacket. Ignoring the huge poor quality DWR issue I think part of its poor breathability is the many layers of panels it uses in parts of the jacket. At least three if not four layers in some parts around the chest. This means eVent must struggle to breathe in say the chest pocket area with an inner and outer pocket. Remember the back is normally compromised by a pack so other areas of the jacket must take on the task of venting. The chest pocket design is very poor due to the difficulty of accessing maps and such stuff with a pack on. In all a rather confused design, assuming it is was indeed intended to be a “traditional” NZ tramping jacket rather than some strange hybrid design.

Hunting around only the MD Stratus can be found in the Goretex material based on a traditional design. Sure there are a few traditional design jackets from other brands but they come in lesser known fabrics and my experience with some of these fabrics and membranes is not good. I like the Wilderness Wear design but the membrane they use lets them down as does it in NZ made jackets I have. Also in one Wilderness Wear jacket after a few uses the tape is falling off. Based on that experience WW is no longer on my shopping list.

I do hope that PP wake up and understand their roots and get back to selling some serious off track walking gear. Sure, by all means, stock and sell the lighter weight gear as probably for a sizable part of the market such gear is better suited. But I do feel that people heading off track will increasingly struggle to get gear that will cope. I currently cannot find any decent long sleeves shirts that can handle a scrub bash and my old ones are gradually failing after many years of excellent service. I hope that the Stratus works out for me.

Cheers

[blacksheep]

Cam, if i can ask - how many XXL Prophet's have you sold?

actually they make up 5% of sales...clearly these guys are not mountaineers, but I agree, the fit is generous (especially if not layered with primaloft or down jacket for cold weather use).
Hope you enjoy it.

[slparker]

Ent,
Interesting post. It makes me wonder has anyone tried a waterproof layer with a scrub cover over the top ( like canvas or cordura?).
My british army mates swear by wearing their waterproof layer under a shirt or similar, you could get away with a thin breathable waterproof layer ( like paclite/ active shell) with a scrub armoured outer layer- replace the cheap scrub top when it wears out.... Beats replacing a $400 shell every time yu slide across rocks or fall into scoparia.
Never tried it myself, although have worn king gee tradies pants when battling scoparia... Just not fun when wet, maybe a heavy cordura would be the ticket.

[stuey69]

You can get the Wangi, just contact OP and they'll reveal how to get it.
I have no idea about their specs or if they're any good.
I have several jackets including an OR Furio, which is my "rough it" jacket, but the best fitting jacket I've ever owned is the Mountain Hardware Beryllium.
This is 3 layer Pro Shell and I save it for wide tracks (NZ, South America, alpine altitude etc).
The hood is so helmet compatible with a terrific brim.
They don't make them anymore and I'm so glad to have it.

[wayno]

mountain hardwear shifted from gore tex to their own membranes conduit and then dry-q, they may have just renamed their clothing range, there should be a similarly designed garment as the berylium, question is, which one...