FF Vireo as Stand Alone Half Bag

[stry]

As a result of Moondog's enduring enthusiasm for this concept, and following a bit of research, I am considering trying the Vireo as a longish half bag. For me, the Vireo seems to offer definite benefits over the PHD half bags and the WM Tamarack, mainly being much slimmer.

I am not a believer in carrying additional clothing to compensate for an insufficiently warm bag. However, if I can save a bit of weight with my bag by wearing in the bag some of the clothes which I am already carrying, that could be a good thing.

I always have thermal top, 100 fleece, and a down jacket. The jacket is mainly for around camp and "just in case" wear. The fleece usually serves as part of my pillow, but I can probably deal with that if necessary.

The Vireo is available in two versions, the UL and the Nano, of which the Nano appears to have heavier, and presumably more robust, fabrics. Given that this will be used stand alone, with no liner, I think I would be happy to carry an extra 50 grams for the added durability.

Any thoughts ? Anyone ? Alternatives that I may have missed ?

And please don't introduce quilts to the discussion. I have tried long and hard to find any thing about quilts that suits me and my usage and have failed. I don't want one

[Moondog55]

Link to the Vireo

http://featheredfriends.com/down-sleepi ... vireo.html

[Chezza]

stry, what's your usage - mountaineering or walking? Have you compared lofts to make sure your down jacket is going to be warm enough?

Never used a half bag, but the Vireo looks like a brilliant idea. Sort of the best of all worlds - half bag, quilt, sleeping bag. I do prefer quilts for hiking in, but it looks ideal for alpine climbing (of which I know precisely nothing).

[stry]

No climbing or extreme use Chezza. Usage would be walking in Victoria and possibly Tas only. I have warmer options if needed, but am always looking at anything that will lighten the load without sacrifice.

My intention would be to use a WM Flight or a PHD Ultra pullover, both of which I already have. I always carry one or the other, plus a 100 fleece and a light or mid weight thermal top.

I have a warmer jacket, but If circumstamces made it necessary to step up the jacket or carry extra clothing for the Vireo to work, I would simply take a warmer bag.

Considering that the weight difference between lengths would mean only a 40 gram penalty if sized to cover my shoulders, it may well be a better idea to simply size it for normal length and boost with the jacket.??? The differential fill (between head and foot) is a clever but simple idea.

[Moondog55]

Even without a down parka [ I do think you need a hood for this to work in colder conditions] as a stand alone bag it will handle most Australian conditions short of snow camping so paying the small weight penalty makes sense.
A girth of ~1600mm lets you wear a substantial parka inside it so it's a very flexible system.
I did look at it myself but took the cheaper option at the time

[stry]

How about a mandarin collar on whatever top I wear, plus a silk balaclava ???

I have a WM Meltdown, which has a hood, but if it was cold enough to carry that, I would also have a warmer bag.

[Chezza]

Definitely size it to go over your shoulders, or you might not be able to cut out drafts when you need to, at least not without compressing your down jacket.

I can't see loft figures. As a start, I'd want to make sure the loft of my down jacket + the loft of the upper section was approximately equal to the loft of the bottom section. That would be a decent baseline to start experimenting from. In all my hours of trawling the internet looking for a way to lighten my sleep system I have not come across another equivalent for the Vireo, so if it works for you, it is probably one of a kind.

While it looks great for a mountainside bivy, it looks hot and sweaty in potentially warmer weather in a normal shelter. That's the reason I prefer quilts - I sleep warm and being abe to vent effectively on a warm night is vital.

But you said not to mention quilts, so I won't

[Moondog55]

At least a decent beanie

[stry]

Definitely size it to go over your shoulders, or you might not be able to cut out drafts when you need to, at least not without compressing your down jacket.

I can't see loft figures. As a start, I'd want to make sure the loft of my down jacket + the loft of the upper section was approximately equal to the loft of the bottom section. That would be a decent baseline to start experimenting from. In all my hours of trawling the internet looking for a way to lighten my sleep system I have not come across another equivalent for the Vireo, so if it works for you, it is probably one of a kind.
But you said not to mention quilts, so I won't

Yeah - I thought about the loft in the upper section. I need to be sure that my light jacket plus bag balances up with the more heavily insulated bottom part of the bag. Have sent an email to FF for help. I don't want to carry the heavier jacket if I can avoid doing so.

And smooth on the quilts Chezza, but I'm not biting Key words in my OP were "me and my usage"

At least a decent beanie

MD - I always have a beanie or down hat, but keeping them on my head through the night is a challenge.

Perhaps I try the silk balaclava, and if that doesn't work, I could swap the beanie/hat for a stand alone hood with a bit of upper chest and back coverage ??. Might be a bit hot during the day when I would normally use the beanie is all.

Also I don't expect to use this at the claimed limits of its capability. Experience tells me that I would be a little cool if I did that.

[Moondog55]

FF ratings are considered realistic by most reviews I read

[stry]

I don't doubt that the ratings are realistic for most, but I seem to be more comfortable operating at a bit higher temp than most manufacturers ratings, particularly those manufacturers who quote limit of comfort ratings.

Usually I prefer to minimize additional clothes in the bag, which may explain my personal temp rating, but in the Vireo I would obviously be wearing more than I usually do.

I'm guessing that for me the Vireo with the right jacket should be good to 0 or a little less. Anything better would be a bonus. "Good" for me is a cosy nights sleep, not even a slightly cool one

[Moondog55]

Me too and myself also Stry, I need a sleeping bag and clothing at least 10 degrees warmer than most people I know.
Are you contemplating a SB cover or bivvy as part of the system?
Have you tried a tie tape on the down hat?

[north-north-west]

Re the beanie at night: get a Buff. Use it as a hood over the beanie. As long as the edge is up to the crown of your head, it'll stay in place overnight. Might not work as well with down as you'd probably lose a fair bit of the loft.

[Moondog55]

Or buy a scrap of fleece and some nylon or polyester ripstop and make a windproof balaclava
Windproof balaclavas are VERY warm
Alternatively simply an add-on hood for you existing jacket
The Uniqlo parka will be on sale soon I imagine and that could be another cheaper option also

[stry]

Re the beanie at night: get a Buff. Use it as a hood over the beanie. As long as the edge is up to the crown of your head, it'll stay in place overnight. Might not work as well with down as you'd probably lose a fair bit of the loft.

Hadn't thought of using a buff. I've got one somewhere. Might even be sufficient head cover on its own.

Or buy a scrap of fleece and some nylon or polyester ripstop and make a windproof balaclava
Windproof balaclavas are VERY warm. Alternatively simply an add-on hood for you existing jacket
The Uniqlo parka will be on sale soon I imagine and that could be another cheaper option also

Hadn't thought of that either - I have a windblock beanie somewhere. But the real winner in that suggestion MD is that I have a detachable hood from a Polartec Windblock jacket. Not U/L, but I can fix that by not weighing it If necessary I can try that, and if the results are good I could look at a lighter alternative. I also have couple of old PaddyMade ear bands made from a double layer of Polartec, which would work very well with a chin strap/tie - could simply pull them over a beanie. Long roll down beanies are another option, but mine is in merion and although very cosy and comfortable, is quite a bit heavier than fleece.

Are you contemplating a SB cover or bivvy as part of the system?

I have a Pertex "Bivy" which is really a sleeping bag cover. I carry it only occasionally (220+ grams), and I just like the belts and braces approach of having something in reserve in the event of tent problems, massive condensation, or something else hitting the fan. I wouldn't plan on using the cover as a regular part of the system, only as backup. It hasn't yet been used in anger.

In response to my email, FF have suggested that the concept should work fine at my anticipated temps with my PHD pullover, so it's probably crunch time.

Strayed a little from the half bag idea, but not that far, as the warmest part of the Vireo is the lower half, and the more lightly filled upper half should reduce heat loss by providing one piece of insulation from shoulder to toe. Probably better for me than a pure half bag, and should let me use a lighter jacket than would be possible with a half bag.

FF also confirmed that the materials in the slightly heavier Nano are more robust than those in the "stops out" U/L. That suits me, and saves some $$

I have I missed anything, or am I good to go ???

[Moondog55]

I would say
"Go with it" and keep us informed
Now the nights are cooling off I should take my bivvy set-up out to the Brisbane Ranges and give it a try in earnest

[stry]

Geez, I hate choices.

The U/L is 60 grams lighter than the Nano and has slightly higher spec down, for an increase of US$60. Very tempting, but it also has a WPB shell, with which I still can't get 100% comfortable in a sleeping bag application, notwithstanding the ongoing improvements in WPB technology.

So - ordered the Nano. That should still be a saving of over 300grams, plus the weight of my silk inner, which wont be used in the Vireo.

Got some physical issues with travel at this time, so might have to test it on the deck or in the shed when it arrives. Temps down to around 6 so far this year, so the the deck should be indicative.

I will report back, but don't hold your breath

[Chezza]

Go on, TOFTT.

[Moondog55]

Anybody that want to explore the half bag idea without the huge cash outlay can go to Rays Outdoors or Katmandu and buy a kids mummy bag. $50- normal price 150GSM insulation polyester shell and 900 grams all up Nominal temperature rating 14C to 10C
I tried one on at Rays yesterday while buying kids underwear for the tadpole and it was the correct size except for the foot box, but if you have feet smaller than size 11 you should be OK

[Moondog55]

We've been holding our collective breath now for a while
Anything like a progress report on how the combination is working for you?

[stry]

It's arrived. It looks good. The progressive/differential fill makes for a reassuring plump footbox. I don't bust stuff, so maybe should have coughed up for for the U/L.

Physical issues are still stopping me going far, so not used in anger - yet. Might get serious and test in the shed - forecast minimums of 2c to 4c for the next couple of nights, which would be about right.

[Moondog55]

Commiserations on the physical issues; i keep forgetting I'm no longer 18YO and just ripped the muscle attachment to my pelvis lifting a big double glazed window and I'll be out of action for another week or so; I guess it's lucky for me I don't have a seasons lift pass this year
I still haven't tested my own half bag in cold weather either

[stry]

OK - Vireo and down pullover sitting on table to remind me. Tonight should be cold enough - forecast 2c.

Thanks for the reminder

[Moondog55]

Don't forget the warm hat

[stry]

OK - as promised. I screwed up the science a little by sleeping in the shed. Estimated minimum was only around 5c, although it dropped to 2c outside the shed.

I'm not repeating the test on the deck or elsewhere in the yard

Wore my usual sleeping attire of long sleeved thermal, spare dry socks, and jocks. Added only a down pullover. No head gear. All worked very well. Some coolness down my back from time to time, but I would attribute this to lack of collar and lack of hood, which means it is far more important to pull the neck drawstring snug.

No cold feet. No cold legs. Also no cold hands. Adding the down top seemed to compliment the differential fill nicely to make for uniform insulation over the entire length of the bag.

In my normally carried gear I would have a micro fleece top, gloves, often a down vest that layers under the pullover that I wore, dry long johns, a silk balaclava and a beanie of some sort. If I had need to resort to using this usually carried back up clothing, I think a comfortable night would be had BY ME at around 0c.

Worth noting is that the length was adequate, but only just. I am 5'7" and my Vireo is the mid length. I occasionally had my feet against the end, but was always able to wriggle a bit and readjust to decompress the down. Given the minimalist thrust of the product marketwise, the minimal length is probably a plus, not a minus.

In short, it will do what I bought it for and save me approximately 400 grams and a little packed volume. Any one considering a purchase would be well advised to take care in selecting a length appropriate to them. FF provided helpful advice by email on the length.