Bushwalking with running shoes

[corvus]

The US Army did the work on the shoe weight, I think I'll defer to their research. After all, you have to lift that footwear every step - you might not notice it, but weight is weight.

The place where boots come into their own is physical protection from scrapes and puncture wounds. No contest there, although there are certainly stronger soles about than KT26's.

Interesting to note that current pics of US military show them wearing boots
corvus

[photohiker]

Interesting to note that current pics of US military show them wearing boots
corvus

I think the research was about footwear weight, not style.

Not sure I'd want to go to war in sandshoes either

[Tony]

Hi Brett,

Good to see this thread resurrected from the electronic dead. Worthwhile reading again.

Some experimenting and the result has been my opinion has not changed.

1. Comfort, frankly I can not see what people get excited about over light footwear. For walking boots weight is rather meaningless to me and I wear Scarpa SL so I am on the heaviest end of the scale. I walked from Burnie to Smithton on a fund raiser in runners and recently did the fifty-four kilometre hike to Frenchman Cap and back and true-fully I can not relate to the tiring heavy boot argument. In my experience it is hogwash. What gets me is walking on boney ground in soft soles shoes. My arches pack in and my feet get bruised.

I agree with you on your first sentence but one of the main reasons for wearing lighter shoes is that research has shown "that heavier foot wear can increase the energy expendure by 1.9-4.7 times greater than that of a kilogram of body mass, depending on sex and walking speed. (Holewijn, 1992)", for a lot of walkers this could make a big difference to the enjoyment of bushwalking. If you have or anyone else have any information that proves your "I can not relate to the tiring heavy boot argument. In my experience it is hogwash" point than I would love to read it.

2. Twisted ankles. Honestly for me to recommend anything but high cut boots would be setting someone up for a badly sprained ankle. Some people never have a problem but with even low cut boots I can tweak an ankle, never had a problem with high cut boots but with shoes yes.

Unfortunately the scientific evidence that I have found in research on this topic (the results which I have previously posted ) does not support you views "that anything but high cut boots would be setting someone up for a badly sprained ankle" . again If you or anyone else have any information that proves your views could you please send it to me or post it on BW-T, and again I would love to read it.

I also find some of the traditional boot myths tiring.

Tony

[Macca81]

high cut boots do NOT prevent ankle injuries (other than scratches and scrapes). the idea of a high cut boot in regards to sprains, is that it will minimise swelling due to the compression.

i have walked in both boots and runners, and i can honestly say that i have had more sprains while wearing the boots. i have hyperflexible ankles so getting a sprain is not unusual for me, having it actually hurt, thats unusual (on that note, im suffering from a sprained ankle that i got last monday night, and its still painfull...). the advantage of the boots is that when i do get a bad sprain, i dont have the swelling that usually goes with it.

[photohiker]

research has shown "that heavier foot wear can increase the energy expendure by 1.9-4.7 times greater than that of a kilogram of body mass, depending on sex and walking speed. (Holewijn, 1992)",

Thanks for the quote Tony, I couldn't find the link last night. Here is a link to the article hopefully I will find it next time...

Macca81 confirms my thoughts on the subject. If you are prone to sprains, choice of footwear won't prevent them. Seems if you are so afflicted, it might be a good idea to strap your ankle regardless of footwear.

[Tony]

Macca81 confirms my thoughts on the subject. If you are prone to sprains, choice of footwear won't prevent them. Seems if you are so afflicted, it might be a good idea to strap your ankle regardless of footwear.

I agree, research has shown this is probably true.

Tony

[dancier]

One trip I did a couple of years ago, I was in the company of one of Tassie's well known landscape photographers. His build was quite similar to my own (long and lean) except he was fitter than I was (and I wasn't unfit) He pranced around like a mountain goat, hauled a heavy pack, etc etc. All on KT26's

Sounds like a guy I met at the Bright backpackers in Vic a few years back. He was a landscape photographer but came down from Darwin because it was too wet and hot in January. Bare foot Bob I called him, he didn't own a pair of shoes and could walk anywhere at twice the speed of anyone else, especially up hills, a true mountain goat and at least 65 years of age.

[Ent]

Hi Tony

Thanks for you reply. Believe it or not I did experiment with alternatives to boots and that is what I found. Scientific evidence is simple physics, how many times and how high you lift your foot by the factor of footwear weight and surprise surprise you use more energy Does this mean tiredness? Well I am not going to surgically trim my feet down to say size eight from size twelve so my guess is I am use to the weight. Remember the post is about my experience, I am not trying to convert the world to any idea of what I think is perfect Honestly I am happy in any decent footwear and can see no merit of saving weight to trade off protection. I regularly walked forty kilometres a day when backpacking around in Europe and never once did I say, "oh better wear my light weight shoes today". I used to alternate my footwear and only wore my shoes in preference to boots when "That looks like a nice place better drag out my best casual dress gear". Four month experience so from my perspective the "heavy tiring boot" argument is hogwash.

Twisted ankles is more common in boots than shoes Tony with a high cut boot I have never torn or twisted an ankle. Shoes I have, and extremely badly twice. Based on a sample size of one big person I hold such research as in the same light as bleeding a patient.

Tony I made it clear this was my experience and surprising as it seams I hold that if you are built like the proverbial brick outhouse maybe boots make sense for bushwalking. I twisted an ankle in low cut footwear and hobble back and then went out the next day in high cut boots and got to my destination and back, I then took my boots off and went for shoes and hobbled to the toilet and back so badly that my friend offer to come to my aid. I have seen someone else take a tumble and then walk out, I am sure without boots it would have been a job for the big yellow taxi.

I have no problem with people wearing what they want to but for me not wearing boots is asking for serious trouble. Come to think of it I see a lot of ice skating boots, ski boots, etc but have not spotted shoes Maybe I am not looking hard enough. Then again we will never agree on light weight walking poles either

Cheers Brett

[geoskid]

Oh, for goodness sake
Wear what you want to wear, and change if it is not working for you! Done!!
Tony's signature statement is pretty apt

[Son of a Beach]

My wife is currently watching the first part of "Anne of Green Gables". I noticed out of the corner of my eye that Anne (with an "e" - which I gather is important) sprained one ankle and twisted the other all in one afternoon. I tried to see what style of footwear she had on, and it looked like boots to me, but I don't think they were lace up. It was difficult to be certain though.

PS. I've just explained this post to my wife, and she tells me that Anne's boots were "button-through". I'm not sure what that means, but I'm guessing that this entire post was not really relevant to the discussion at hand after all. Sorry for wasting your time.

[north-north-west]

Wear what works for you. End of story. For me, it all depends on terrain and weather. Barefoot, sandals, walking shoes (not runners) or boots.

My one concern about people going bush in shoes - especially in Tassie - is their greater tendency to dodge bogs. (NB: this is based on observation, it's not necessarily a universal rule.)

[under10kg]

My one concern about people going bush in shoes - especially in Tassie - is their greater tendency to dodge bogs. (NB: this is based on observation, it's not necessarily a universal rule.)

Yep I agree with this. I wear runners and if the mud is not too bad I walk around it. Only if it is bad do I walk through it like on the arthurs plain.

Then again, boots cause a lot more damage on fragile vegetation when off track compared to runners.

The only thing I got against runners is that they wear out pretty fast so the cost becomes a factor if you like the more expensive runners.

[Macca81]

Twisted ankles is more common in boots than shoes

i dont think anyone said that....

Tony I made it clear this was my experience and surprising as it seams I hold that if you are built like the proverbial brick outhouse maybe boots make sense for bushwalking.

i am built in such a way... i wear boots because i find them comfortable, regardless of where i am or what im doing. i also wear runners, because i find them comfortable etc etc etc.
i dont think my being 52cm from shoulder to shoulder (im only 176cm tall) has any bearing on a need to wear boots or not.


scavenger and geoskid are onto something i feel... wear what you want to wear! everyone needs to stop trying to convince each other that they are right, and everyone needs to accept that they are right for themselves.

to finish, id like to leave with a quote from Brian Cohen (monty pythons life of brian): [i]"Look. You've got it all wrong. You don't need to follow me. You
don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals!"[/]

[Tony]

scavenger and geoskid are onto something i feel... wear what you want to wear! everyone needs to stop trying to convince each other that they are right, and everyone needs to accept that they are right for themselves.

to finish, id like to leave with a quote from Brian Cohen (monty pythons life of brian): [i]"Look. You've got it all wrong. You don't need to follow me. You
don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals!"[/]

I could not agree more, we should wear what we want to, like and feel comfortable in, what I have learned from my studies into backpacks is that perceived comfort etc is probably more important than anything else.

Tony

[Son of a Beach]

"Look. You've got it all wrong. You don't need to follow me. You don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals!"

I'm not

[Macca81]

we knew that already nik

[andre35]

Thought i'd put my two cents worth in.... Not sure if many of you out there have ever considered military boots for bushwalking? I'm in the Army and can testify that the issued boots are terrible but there are some quiet good aftermarket boots out there. Here's a few that i've used, both boots and shoes, and my views on them.
http://www.altama.com/products/17-Origi ... Speed-Boot
Great for long stomps in flat,dry conditions also excellent for running. Terrible in the wet

http://www.platatac.com/bates/bates-m-9 ... 024450/w1/
Excellent for steep rocky climbs, good grip and hard wearing. Take a while to dry once wet though.

http://www.thenorthface.com.au/securesh ... ductID=652
Great shoe, good comfort and traction. Not as hard lasting as a boot though.

http://www.merrell.com/US/en-US/Product ... Ventilator
Excellent shoe that lots of us are using overseas, both this and the goretex version.

Maybe this helps, or at least something else to consider, as an alternative to anyone looking for new boots? I've used all these extensively throughout Tasmania and all over the world. My best bit of advice- choose the footwear to suit the conditions, boots or shoes. Anyway that's my say, take it however you like....

[nakedape]

Hi Adam,


With footwear do not believe that wearing heavy boots stops ankle sprains, that is a myth, the lighter the foot wear the less energy used, the most important thing with footwear is use what is most comfortable for you or what you are most comfortable wearing.

Tony

While I agree with much of whats been said, I'd steer well clear of this advice - have a chat to a podiatrist or orthopedic specialist and you'll soon realise that support is the main aim of the game. Get yourself a pair of good quality, well fitted boots - then have a bunch of fun out in the bush!

[bushrunner]

Hi Adam,


With footwear do not believe that wearing heavy boots stops ankle sprains, that is a myth, the lighter the foot wear the less energy used, the most important thing with footwear is use what is most comfortable for you or what you are most comfortable wearing.

Tony

While I agree with much of whats been said, I'd steer well clear of this advice - have a chat to a podiatrist or orthopedic specialist and you'll soon realise that support is the main aim of the game. Get yourself a pair of good quality, well fitted boots - then have a bunch of fun out in the bush!

Sure but "support" can mean a bunch of stuff. Generally speaking support is provided by the midsole design, not by splinting the ankle with rigid materials. Our bodies tend to work very well with ankle joints, removing or limiting them is not necessarily a great idea. Personally I like a highcut boot but I like the ankle area on the highcut boot to be very flexible so that my legs can function properly.

This debate is a perfect example of what people have been saying about differing views and opinions. Get all the advice you can stomach then buy what best suits you.

[Tony]

Hi nakedape,

While I agree with much of whats been said, I'd steer well clear of this advice - have a chat to a podiatrist or orthopedic specialist and you'll soon realise that support is the main aim of the game. Get yourself a pair of good quality, well fitted boots - then have a bunch of fun out in the bush!

While I agree with "get advice from a podiatrist or orthopedic specialist" could you please provide proof "that support is the main aim of the game" I could not find any evidence that boots are better when I tried. All of the evidence that I found pointed that boots do not stop ankle sprains if you have any evidence that proves this wrong please post it as I would love to read it.

Tony

[ollster]

All of the evidence that I found pointed that boots do not stop ankle sprains if you have any evidence that proves this wrong please post it as I would love to read it.

Tony

I have personal experience, does that count? I've got weak ankles, and my Scarpa SL-M3 boots have stopped me from rolling my ankles on numerous occasions - my foot cannot rotate past the "point of no return". They are pretty stiff and quite high cut. My previous boots were Scarpa Trek Pro (I think) and were not as stiff, and consequently I rolled my ankles a couple of times last year.

For me bushwalking without these heavy duty boots would be a recipe for disaster. I call bullcrap that boots don't make a difference - they do. Not to mention the protection from punctures that 2.8mm leather provides.

[sthughes]

Couldn't agree more ollster.

[north-north-west]

While I agree with much of whats been said, I'd steer well clear of this advice - have a chat to a podiatrist or orthopedic specialist and you'll soon realise that support is the main aim of the game. Get yourself a pair of good quality, well fitted boots - then have a bunch of fun out in the bush!

While I agree with "get advice from a podiatrist or orthopedic specialist" could you please provide proof "that support is the main aim of the game" I could not find any evidence that boots are better when I tried. All of the evidence that I found pointed that boots do not stop ankle sprains.

I still find this claim bewildering.
You cannot prove the point either way, because you're dealing with 'what ifs' - "I sprained my ankle wearing boots, but what if I'd been wearing shoes?" sort of thing. All you can do is accept or reject anecdotal evidence - which generally supports the boots are better contention.
I have pretty strong ankles (would that the rest of my joints were as good), but there are still certain walks I won't do without boots because I want the extra support and protection they offer.

[Ent]

All of the evidence that I found pointed that boots do not stop ankle sprains if you have any evidence that proves this wrong please post it as I would love to read it.

Tony

I have personal experience, does that count? I've got weak ankles, and my Scarpa SL-M3 boots have stopped me from rolling my ankles on numerous occasions - my foot cannot rotate past the "point of no return". They are pretty stiff and quite high cut. My previous boots were Scarpa Trek Pro (I think) and were not as stiff, and consequently I rolled my ankles a couple of times last year.

For me bushwalking without these heavy duty boots would be a recipe for disaster. I call bullcrap that boots don't make a difference - they do. Not to mention the protection from punctures that 2.8mm leather provides.

Exactly what I have found with exactly the same boots that you have referred to (mine are Treks not Pros which are stiffer but still have the lower cut style). For tricky ground the SL's rock though the Treks are ok in most other ground conditions.

Cheers