No affordable good brands in Australia/NZ ?

[Hallu]

Hi everybody,
I'm pretty new to serious hiking : I'm from France and have hiked as a teenager mostly through the Pyrénées, the Alps, or the Massif Central. Only day walks, even though some were pretty serious stuff (like 7 hours and 1000 m climb). Now that I'm in Australia, with all the National Parks and the vastness, all the camping grounds and opportunity of overnight walks, I'm buying backpacks, tent, sleeping bag etc...

And then it means being struck as all French people who come to Australia : what the hell is wrong with the prices here ? Yes there's good gear, but you always have to pay the price, to wait for huge sales, to hunt for the new oversea good online shop with great prices, because there's one important thing missing : there's absolutely no company that sells good affordable hiking gear (I don't consider a 100 $ sleeping bag or a 200 $ tent "affordable", it may be to Australian standards, but that's precisely because the prices are so high here).

In France and now in Europe, Quechua, a subbrand of Decathlon, who sells mostly sport gear, made a huge boom by selling affordable camping/hiking equipment : their stuff is pretty good quality, cheap, ingenuous (they're the one who invented the 2 seconds tents), and they inspired lots of people to go hiking, because it's now affordable. Why isn't there such a thing here ? I have many French friends in Melbourne, and most of them buy a crap-load of Quechua stuff any chance they're in France, because there's no delivery to Australia, and no equivalent here.

To me, there's a huge gap here in Australia : if you pay 50 $ for a tent, 60 $ for hiking boots, or 20 $ for a sleeping bag, you're sure to get garbage. Hell, the closest thing to Quechua is Kathmandu and their prices are about 4 or 5 times as high, without the ingenuity. Now don't get me wrong : Quechua products aren't top of the line product, not at all, you probably won't be impressed. They're just good and affordable. And in Australia if you want good, you need to pay the price, or go hiking with your tennis shoes and a belt-less shoulder-murdering backpack. So if any of you is feeling like creating a new company similar to Quechua in Australia/NZ, you have my blessing... or if you know one that we missed, please point us in their direction.

Some example of Quechua products :
-50L backpack : http://store.quechua.com/sac-a-dos-forc ... 72706.html , 40 €... try to find a similar product for this price here, tested by a friend who do some pretty serious hiking in Australia and NZ.
-A 0°C sleeping bag at 60 € : http://store.quechua.com/sac-de-couchag ... 06710.html (no it's not down filling of course)
-Some water proof hiking shoes at 37 € : http://store.quechua.com/chaussure-arpe ... 69356.html , I tried them at Mount Erica in Baw Baw NP in June, with 20 cm snow at times... My friends had their feet soaking wet, I was barely moist after 4 hours of deep mud and snow.

[wildernesswanderer]

Well what you linked to I would not classify as good gear. It depends on whether you want to take a $50 tent or $20 sleeping bag on the overland track or into the Victorian high country in mid winter. Hilleberg for example are the same price in Europe as the USA, quality cost money no way around it but if your not looking for that type of gear you will find summer gear that is cheap if you look around Anaconda is cheap and well not my type of gear but would be fine in summer heres a example

http://www.anaconda.com.au/Product/Camp ... -Dome-Tent

[wayno]

quality of outdoor gear varies massively, if the brand hasnt been given a decent review in any reputable outdoor publications or websites, I'm unlikely to buy it..

[Hallu]

I expected these kind of reactions, but please don't focus on "I wouldn't take this gear on a serious hike", it's obvious most people in this forum are experienced hikers and wouldn't buy this kind of stuff. My point is, if you look at anaconda, the first price for a hiking bag is 110 $, even worse for a hike tent. Why is there no descent hiking product at prices/quality similar to what Quechua's doing ? Of course you wouldn't take a Quechua sleeping bag for a 6 day hike in the mountains, but for overnight hiking, it's enough, and that's my point : a lot of people stop at overnight hikes, and feel the need to see decent gear at decent prices, they don't want to buy gear that could also very well endure 6 days in the Andes under a blizzard whereas they just want to do an overnight hike at Wilsons Prom' or in the Victorian countryside.

[wayno]

its been discussed before on this site.... locally made qulality products have higher overheads than products made overseas..
a lot of the distrubutors for products made overseas have a monopoly on distribution and put big markups on the products. they claim they have to recoup their costs for marketing and distribution etc but it doesnt stack up to scrutiny.... a lot of people are buying their products online overseas and try and get around the blocks many companies put on selling overseas through online stores... in one year personal packages shipped to Aus increased by 30%
its not just a problem in the outdoor industry.... unless there is parallel distributor importing the problem will probably always exist
plus its hard to tell what is a decent price with so much of the market hyper inflating retail prices and offering "massive discounts"

[Hallu]

Well in terms of costs, Quechua's "solution" is to manufacture in China, but to have quality control done in France (because quality control in China is horrible). It's strange that with so many people hiking in Aus/NZ, there hasn't been enough competition among distributors to have cheaper products, and it's even stranger nobody created a company to fill the void.

On the bright side, we're starting to get price competitive general online stores (books, DVDs, etc...), like Europe/America. Fishpond offers cheap prices and free delivery, and Amazon has Australia as its next target. I think it's only a matter of time before the same thing happens for hiking products.

[Moondog55]

Cost of shipping is still a major factor tho.
I have looked at some products from the brand you mention, I would not bet my life on them, I would not bet my life on most of the stuff from Anaconda either.

[roysta]

Hallu, let me lay it out simply for you.
I've seen Quechua gear in several countries overseas and frankly I don't rate it, it's low end and it's cheap, end of story.
Remember where we are, Australia, other side of the world, and yes, gear can be expensive.
So, if you're astute, like some of us here. you'll buy online from the USA or the UK.
You're in Australia now, not France, so get used to it.

[Moondog55]

Heck mate you think Australia is expensive?
That is the price you have to pay for living here.

Go spend some time on New Caledonia or Tahiti or the highlands of Nuigini and see what expensive really is

[etrangere]

..... its hard to tell what is a decent price with so much of the market hyper inflating retail prices and offering "massive discounts"

Wayno you hit the nail on the head there. That has to be my number one peeve with the retail industry.....its just so dishonest and shows a complete lack of morals. Perhaps before the internet it was a case of the bliss of ignorance, but now we know better and its infuriating.

[Franco]

Just one comparison
Australia has 2.8 people per square kilometer, France has 116.
Does that help you a bit ?

Ok i'll make it a bit more obvious.
Australia has 23 million people

France has 63 million in an area 11 times smaller...
Now go to the US and see just how expensive France is...

BTW, aprox figures

[roysta]

Now go to the US and see just how expensive France is...

That sentence about sums it up.

[corvus]

If you want cheap and cheerful gear check out this site you can buy a "hike tent" for as little as $39.95 and I think a sleeping bag for a bit over $20.00
http://www.oztrail.com.au/ProductGroup/ZZZ001.asp
You should also check out K Mart or Big W they also have cheap gear, so it is available and I think about the same "quality" as the brand you are quoting.
corvus

[Hallu]

Well I didn't expect so much animosity, but anyway.

It doesn't have anything to do with density of population, look at Canada or Scandinavia. I think Wayno is right : Australian companies claim it's expensive both to produce here and to import, but in reality there's just no one do stand up and create a company with competitive prices. Same with internet : it's so expensive here, and mostly limited in download, whereas if you look at Sweden, a low density country, they have cheap unlimited fiber optics everywhere. And in France it used to be expensive until an ISP just came and said "screw this I'm offering unlimited high speed DSL with TV and phone bundle for 30 € a month" and it worked beautifully, included in terms of quality. That's what would be great here for hiking products : someone specializing in offering something midway between cheap fragile gear (like Big W and K mart stuff) and high end expensive quality products

And to answer to corvus, I should have mentioned it earlier but I've tested some of the material from Big W or cheap tents at 50 $ and comparing to Quechua unfortunately it's not the same quality, it's way lower. Again I'm not saying Quechua is top of the line, it's good quality for money. I'd be more than glad to pay less for hiking gear and more to National Parks in order to preserve Australian biodiversity or to maintain walking tracks for example.

[Franco]

Lets have a look at just one tent ..
Quequa T3
3 person tent , fiberglass poles,polyester fly, 4.6kg 55 euro, about $66
http://store.quechua.com/tente-t3--id_8057313.html


Anaconda jindabyne
http://www.anaconda.com.au/Product/Camp ... -Dome-Tent


similar shelter, 3.4 kg $55 , normally $109 , but no need to rush to buy it...
Don't take too much notice of the weight, they are never accurate.

As stated above the Quequa stuff is mostly standard Chinese factory stuff, so yes shops here can and do those for similar prices it is just not many in a forum like this would want to use that gear.

[ULWalkingPhil]

I do believe in regards to hiking gear we are being ripped of here in australia. Ive seen poor quality gear more expensive in Australia than quality gear from overseas and not to mention the lack of choice here compared to overseas.

[roysta]

yes shops here can and do those for similar prices it is just not many in a forum like this would want to use that gear.

Two solid quotes in one night Hallu, hope you're taking this in

[Franco]

I do believe in regards to hiking gear we are being ripped of here in australia
Yes I have been reading comments like this for years yet with this wonderful opportunity for someone to make a mozza out of it by doing a better job I still have not seen any takers.
How come?

[maddog]

I do believe in regards to hiking gear we are being ripped of here in australia.

MSR Hubba Hubba at one of the larger Australian retailers = 499.95 AUD

MSR Hubba Hubba at a well known American retailer = 329.95 USD

Neither organisation make or add any value to the product - both are mere traders.

With the AUD and USD at close to parity. I agree with Phillipsart- the great Australian rip off. But no need to take advantage of local opportunity - just bypass local retail until they adopt equivalent pricing.

Cheers

[Franco]

So how come no US retailer has moved into Australia and set up their own shops here ?

I have already pointed out that charging more and ripping off are two totally different things.
Remember that Gina Rinehart can get labour for $2 a day (or so she thinks) the problem with that is that it may work in Africa not so much here.
The same is if you want to have American prices you need American cost of doing business...

Talk is cheap...

[Mountain Rocket]

This discussion has been had many, many times.

Here is the latest thread: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10600
And a quick search brought up this thread from 2008: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=472

[wildernesswanderer]

Australia's are not getting ripped off so to speak.

I'll tell you reasons why

The first is that a importer of goods needs to set up a business, that means they have overheads, import tax, shipping, warehouse costs, phone bills, electricity costs, staff costs, they need to back the products with a local warranty and after all that they need to make a profit. Then they sell this to the retailer and the retailer needs to also have a markup on the product so they can stock it and they have overheads too. Whether you want to support Australian businesses is then up to you.

Second reason: Simply put it is supply and demand, the wonderful US of A has a population of over 311,000,000 people, in fact NY city alone has a population of over 8,000,000 people. When you have that size of population it's a much more competitive market, you have to have more stock and you order more stock from one manufacturer at a time, hence bigger order, better pricing, cheaper shipping. So Australia has a population of 22,000,000 Importers can not afford to carry a heap of stock to have it sitting there, it costs money to do so and therefore they can't buy in bulk and therefore can't get a cheaper price or cheaper shipping and when they do get stock overseas it costs more as shipping to Australia may as well be shipping to Antarctica, we are to far away.

Ao when you think Australians are being ripped off because we get charged $100 more on a piece of equipment think about all of this and then make that call.

I know the cost of importing as I was going to be a importer of a camera that you can'g get here but after counting all the cost and the low volume I would be importing, even not selling though retail and letting people buy direct I would have had to charge $250 more than what I could ship it from the States for, as such I didn't set it up

There is way more than a strong dollar for pricing.

Just saying

[Strider]

So how come no US retailer has moved into Australia and set up their own shops here ?

I have already pointed out that charging more and ripping off are two totally different things.
Remember that Gina Rinehart can get labour for $2 a day (or so she thinks) the problem with that is that it may work in Africa not so much here.
The same is if you want to have American prices you need American cost of doing business...

Talk is cheap...

Spot on Franco.

[maddog]

Remember that Gina Rinehart can get labour for $2 a day (or so she thinks) the problem with that is that it may work in Africa not so much here.
The same is if you want to have American prices you need American cost of doing business...

Yet despite the dreams of Gina, Australian mines in producing something of value (commodity exports to the world), are able to profit despite international commodity pricing and high wages. Meanwhile those rent-seeking import licence holders and poor beggar me retailers, decry 'excessive' minimum wages and 10% GST impositions to justify the 50-100% pricing difference of on-sold foreign manufactured commodities, with no mention of their outdated business model and poor management standards.

The problem that the import to retail sector has is that if it does not start producing something of value (ie good service and/or low cost) it will soon no longer exist - the consumer is happy (and able) to bypass their offerings. Pity nor patriotism will save them from their fate.

Cheers

[Moondog55]

Franco; Patagonia has had several goes at retail here in Australia.
They retail here at a considerable margin over the same retail in EU or the USA, so there is something going on other than the small volume of sales.
Rents and overheads are part of the problem but partly I think it is an unrealistic expectation of profit.
it is the same reason why we pay $5- for a cup of coffee that costs 38 cents to make. taxis cost so much more than trams or trains etc

[wildernesswanderer]

And lets look at coffee, I have a favourite cafe in Melbourne I go to, they source their beans from all the best coffee regions in the world bring them back to Australia, roast them and then make my coffee out of them, sure the coffee may cost 38cents, but they provide a cafe for me to go to, baristas to make it and a atmosphere and service I like. That all adds up to a service, a service that I'm willing to pay $4 a cup for. I buy their beans and drink it at home for much less than the cafe charges but I still go to the cafe as well as I chat to the guys there and it's a nice place

I support service more than anything, if a retailer can provide me with a reason to buy their goods I will buy them, sure I don't want to throw money away but good old fashion service can make me spend in a shop instead of the internet.

A bit off topic but it's interesting to read everyones thoughts on pricing in Australia.

[Mark F]

The Quechua gear is of a similar quality to that offered by Anaconda's Denali brand and Kathmandu as Franco points out. It is functional and suitable to the French/European conditions for 3 seasons walkers - remember that in Europe there are not extensive bush bashing trips and middle of the road gear works quite well. In the mountains the French tend to use refuges rather than camp.

As already pointed out there is also a far larger market in Europe compared to Australia and this has several ramifications. There are fewer barriers to getting decent sized production runs and so the lowest possible prices. The brands do not see a big enough market in Australia to justify setting up their own distribution systems direct to retailers or I suspect shipping direct from the factory to Australia. Thus we have far higher costs in the double shipping and handling and have a series of importer/distributor/wholesalers taking a cut. These represent a considerable portion of the price differential and I didn't notices prices tumbling as the AU$ went from 70c to $1.05 (pure profit). Anaconda, Kathmandu etc are direct importers but price up to the perceived maximum and then play the 40%-50% discount game whereas many os retailers keep the margins reasonable and don't offer the huge discounts. You may also find that being far more seasonal the way the market works in Europe is more akin to the ski industry here, where retailers buy for the coming season at one of the big trade shows 6 months or more ahead. This is a much cheaper distribution system as there is little stock in warehouses; it is manufactured and shipped to the retailer and the retailer takes the risk on selling it - when they run out, that is it for the season.

If you want to explore the upper end of gear sold in France check out http://www.auvieuxcampeur.fr which is the largest upper end chain like Paddy's or Mountain Equipment. Remember that these prices have 19.6% VAT in them rather than our 10% GST so use 15% as the exchange rate conversion (100 Euros = AU$115) to get to the underlying price.

[Moondog55]

I'll happily pay $5- with the atmosphere and service, the trouble is that price becomes the benchmark for coffee with poor service and no atmosphere.
one of the reasons I shopped for many years at Bushgear was that despite the rude service and arrogant attitude was the really good advice on gear, technique and how to bushwalk well on a minimum budget, that represented value for money.
I still have no money but the shops now offer little value in terms of advice and expertise for a lot of their customers and think that partly is why a lot of people are buying O/S

[Franco]

MSR Hubba Hubba at one of the larger Australian retailers = 499.95 AUD

MSR Hubba Hubba at a well known American retailer = 329.95 USD

Ok, lets have a look at that.
For a start MSR is a Seattle based company. They used to have their tents in the US , how come they are made in Taiwan now?
Was MSR ripped off by American workers ?

So, is the HH at $500 really a rip off ?
Lets equalise it a bit, that is take the 10%GST off because the $330 US is a tax free price.
(buying in a USA shop you would pay $330 PLUS the local TAX)
So now we are down to $450.
The guy that sells you the $330 HH in the US, assuming he is a senior employee, gets $14 per hour, so he has to work for 23.5 hours to buy it.
The Aussie "senior" person gets $20 (plus) per hour, so 22.5 hours later he can buy that tent.
Now just for fun lets pretend that the Aussie guy works some extra Saturdays to buy that tent.
Now he is getting $40 per hour (SAT double time) , 11.5 hours later he has the tent.
The US guy still needs to work 23.5 hours because he gets no double time on Saturday..
So here we are , I just proved to you that in the US the HH at $330 can cost you more than twice as much in work hours than here at $450.


So who is getting ripped off here ????

BTW...
It doesn't have anything to do with density of population, look at Canada or Scandinavia
Canada is more expensive than the US and believe me folk whinge about it there too, oddly they are not interested in having US wages or US style health system..

SCANDINAVIA ???
You can buy a Hilleberg tent made in Estonia by a Swedish company cheaper (in dollars) in the US than Sweden.
Why ? because Swedish people work ,earn their money and live in Sweden.
Americans would love to have Swedish wages...


Now go and find me a local plumber that works (here) for Mexican wages, I can do with one.

[photohiker]

So how come no US retailer has moved into Australia and set up their own shops here ?

Because, among other problems with low margin retailing in Australia, it is the manufacturers and distributors who call the shots on price, not the retailers.

Manufacturers do offer different prices to retailers in Australia compared to other markets. To blame it mostly on freight is nonsense. If you follow the activities of Kogan you can see that they are able to rip a large hole in the artificial price controlled consumer electronics environment on a frequent basis.

If the local retailers could buy at the same price as US retailers (+ reasonable freight) I think this argument would evaporate. That's never going to happen, but at least we are able to find out about the price differences and act accordingly. Thank you internet.