Rucsac for difficult trips; suggestions welcome

[jmac]

Hello,

I need a new pack and am struggling to find anything on the market to suit my needs. I would welcome suggestions from the gear freaks. Firstly I will outline my wish list, then list a few packs I've looked at and dismissed, then list a couple that look a bit like what I'm after, for your consideration. I hope this request for opinion is an acceptable use of this forum?

Firstly, I'm looking for a simple pack for doing complicated Tasmanian off-track trips. It will spend a lot of it's time in the scrub. It will spend a fair chunk of it's life lugging a packraft over mountains. It will also therefore spend time strapped to the deck of a packraft. It will also be pressed into service for ski-touring and mountaineering. Hence, I need a pack that is:

Approximately 80 litres, not too broad or tall. (It will be bashing a lot of Tassie scrub.)
It must be quite light. Preferably well under 2kg.
Strong, but not too strong. I am willing to sacrifice durability for weight saving.
Simple, strong harness. Emphasis on simple. I do not want a complicated harness, no matter how adjustable or comfy; the risk of failure is too great.
Single compartment, top loading.
Not water absorbent. It's going to be thrown into rivers and be out in rain-sodden scrub. No water-absorbent foam or features wanted.
Top pocket. No side pockets or back pocket (a back crampon/snow shovel holder is acceptable. Likewise a few attachment points or daisy chain are acceptable, but not lots of fancy attachments that will hook onto scrub.)

What I've dismissed already:
a) The entire ranges of MD, Kathmandu, Osprey, Deuter. They are fit for purpose; just not my purpose. I need less marketing add-ons and more durability in horrid scrub.
b) The Macpac Torre. Too heavy and disappointingly fancy harness.
c) The WE Mountain Expedition. Too big and heavy with fancy harness.
d) Aarn. I don't think all the fancy counter-balancing will work for me in the scrub.
e) Golite. Some interesting ideas, but I don't quite think they fit my needs.
f) One Planet. Good gear but nothing in my size range that isn't too heavy. (The Alpine Stilletto looks good but too small.)
g) Gossamer Gear. Hmm... looks like it will tear apart in a few days of Horizontal and baeura.

What I've looked at on the web and am still curious about:

Summit Gear Alp 70. Fractionally too small?
Arc'teryx Nozone 75. Maybe fractionally small? Any comments?
Arc'teryx Bora 80. Good size but the shape looks a bit top-heavy.
Black Diamond Mission 75. Maybe fractionally small and harness too tizzy?

I would welcome input from gear freaks who understand my needs as outlined. I know there are heaps of other manufacturers I should investigate. Thanks in advance for your ideas.

Cheers,

John

[norts]

Under 2kilos with an 80L capacity is a tough ask.
An 80l pack means that it has to carry a big/heavy load so the harness will need to be more robust.

I havent used tthem but have looked at them in Jolly Swagman
Lowe Alpine TFX Expedition - I think thats the one in Swagman. 2.2Kg 75 l it's been sitting in there for quite awhile.
http://www.lowealpine.com/eng/prod_app_ ... 4&type=man

Also the WE Karinji , pretty bomb proof but up in the 3 kg class

Roger

[Gusto]

That's a tough ask.

Your criteria is a little confusing to me as you fear the risk of a failure from ' complicated fancy' harnesses, yet you are willing to sacrifice durability with lightweight fabrics.


My first line of thought would be not to discount the W.E. packs due to their harness system. Because you can actually attached their traditional one piece hip belt to their pack. I would have thought that the WE Outbreak with UniFit harness would come close to what you want http://www.wildequipment.com.au/backpack_detail.php?Code=WEOB .

I also think that the Summit Gear range of packs would be well suited. They specialise in canyoning gear. So their fabrics are tough and well suited to water. How about this one http://www.summitgear.com.au/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_10&products_id=366

I'd also look towards the basic industrial OP packs too. such as this perhaps http://www.oneplanet.com.au/outdoor-ed-rucksacks/hr-nylon.html

It's worth contacting http://www.twinneedle.co.nz Their website is partially down at the moment. But they usually have a 'Build you own' Rucsack design. Their gear is tough.

I also would have thought that Cactus Gear would have something that fits your requests. http://www.cactusequipment.co.nz/online-shop/packs--bags/78

If you still can't find anything good from them, then all those brands above except WE have a full custom option if you talk to them.


Good luck

[iGBH]

I also would have thought that Cactus Gear would have something that fits your requests. http://www.cactusequipment.co.nz/online-shop/packs--bags/78

Cactus was the first that came to mind for me too. I have the Deep Winter, its features are probably not what you are after but Cactus's design principles of simple and tough sound like they would suit your needs.

[blacksheep]

If by difficult conditions you mean remote , life and death sort of thing, then consider the macpac ascent. No moving bits, been used everywhere...we never see these back in our customer service centre.

[nq111]

Black Diamond has the fancy harness that it sounds like you don't want.

First thing that sprung to my mind was the arcteryx bora (then noticed on your shortlist). Going to be over 2kg but for what you want I think you may need to settle for that.

Also maybe look at the Gregory packs - simple harness load haulers.

Otherwise if you have the cash what about a custom job from McHale - you can have just the materials and features you want?

[alliecat]

Here's a couple of possibilities you might not be aware of.

Crux from the UK - designed for mountaineering: AK70 is 70L + 7 in the lid. I have the ak57 and love it. It's light, tough, simple, and comfortable on me. it does have side pockets but they are small (they don't catch on scrub in my experience) and made of the same material as the main body, so definitely not fragile.

Cilogear - also for climbers/mountaineers: cilogear packs. You can get them in full dyneema which is pretty tough (and pricey).

If money is no object, you can get Dan McHale to build the perfect pack for you. Good luck making sense of the website though.

Good hunting!
Alliecat

[Nuts]

It's a shame that the Stilleto isn't big enough John, iv'e never carried anything bigger, I'd imagine they would either get wide or tall.
I had my scout and gear for 12 days in a slightly smaller pack (not much lightweight stuff but a few compromises) however the blades were outside. I have since bought a mungo for attempt three..

... so I can't help much, hope i don't start a flow of ultra-light opinion

This u-tube vid, youv'e likely seen, it does make a difference. I did try other ways but this really did make the most compact (inside pack) sized raft bundle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1knHmqDrPeM

I toyed with the idea of a drybag + harness =pack, there are some nice ones around, probably not the best walking pack.

ps.. beware if shopping online, some manufacturers haven't mastered litre conversions it seems.

[quicky]

Have you considered Osprey packs?

Very well made, very popular among the more 'lightweight' hikers, as they don't want to sacrifice durability and comfort just for the sake of weight - this pack is 1.14kg for size medium.

I have an Osprey Talon and love it, and some of my good friends just purchased an Exos. They couldn't speak more highly about them. They've taken them off-track in all sorts of scrub, and they are yet to complain.

The packs are very 'practical-based' and extremely user friendly...and comfortable.

I'd highly recommend the Exos 58 for what you are seeking. I know you may be thinking that it is too small in volume, however, remember, that there is no standardised method for measuring pack volume. In saying this, the Exos (and Osprey in general), are quite roomy for their sizing. They also have other lines made specifically for men or women, however I believe the Exos will be comfortable for all genders.

Here is the link if you're interested
http://www.ospreypacks.com/en/product/s ... ht/exos_58

Here is a pic from their site...

Exos 58

Exos 58.jpg (46.74 KiB) Viewed 21260 times

Definitely worth considering in my opinion.
Jase

[Nuts]

Sorry quicky, I do have that pack and it is great! everywhere except in Thick scrub.. it may last a week or two (depending on your needlecraft)
edit: which is likely ok

[Mountain Rocket]

Yeah you have set quite a hard set of requirements for yourself. There is going to have to be a compromise somewhere!

I think by far the closest thing would be a HMG Porter pack. It is ~72L, has a simple harness, made from hybrid cuben fiber which is both waterproof and extremely strong (great for scrub, not so great for abrasion). They are also top loading, single compartmental and have daisy chains to boot. Oh yeah and it is ~900g.

I have the Porter which is basically the same pack but in a smaller capacity and I am very happy with it.

[jmac]

Roger, Gusto, iGBH, Campbell, nq111 and Alliecat, Nuts and quicky, thank you very much for your ideas. There are some interesting suggestions there. I'm feeling much more optimistic about finding a decent pack now!

Roger, back in 1983, when I moved into a share-house as an 18 year old, my mother generously gave me some money to buy a proper bed. For my health. After she left town I splurged the bed money on a Lowe Expedition, the most awesome load carrier I'd ever seen! (And so with a great rucsac but no bed, I slept on a lilo for a couple of years, to my mother's dismay.) The Lowe replaced my classic H-frame Mountain Mule, that I'd got at 15, and which was utterly destroyed by scrub by the time I was 18. But that Mule got me going, got me through my first few summers of river and mountain and scrub trips. The Lowe too, was a beautiful friend. I did heaps of OT guiding with it, and countless thrashfests, but eventually the Big Blue M.F. was knackered. So the Lowe TFX Expedition excites me a little bit, but only a little bit.

The Karinji is too heavy. Not on my short list, but thank you.

Gusto, I'm sorry for being unclear about durability. I don't mind if my rucsac shreds slowly over a few seasons through abrasion and wear and tear (because I will always use dry bags inside), as long as it gets me home, but I don't want an unexpected major harness failure, as experienced by my friend with his WE Mountain Expedition on our trip to Vanishing Falls 2 summers ago.

Yes I'm familiar with the OP Educational packs, they are great, I have one; too small for big trips. And their big strong packs are heavier than I'm willing to buy.

Twinneedle's site was indeed dodgy, but I will try again.

Cactus Equipment looks interesting, the Deep Winter looks almost perfect! Just 10 litres too small.

iGBH, that Deep Winter does indeed look simple and great. Reminds me of my old late 1980s Berghaus Cyclops Roc. I loved that pack.

Campbell Blacksheep, I still have and love my early 1990s Ascent, and it gets dragged out occasionally when I'm feeling a bit retro, but it's not big enough for long mountain trips with boats. I did actually rip a shoulder strap out of it in NZ in approx '93, and called in to the Macpac factory in Christchurch for repair on my way to the airport. Great service, great pack.

nq111, I agree about the look of the harness on the BD Mission, which is why I was hoping for user testimony. Nice looking sac though. I l had looked at the Gregory gear and been uninspired. They look bloated. Thoughts?

I was quite excited by the McHale website. Their philosophy for harnesses and materials looks great, but the actual sacs look like they don't understand scrub. Pockets and tizzy bits hanging off. And extra zip compartments at the bottom. My current big pack is a custom job, so I'm not ruling out a custom job though!

More thoughts to come, but thanks so much, I've been brought up to speed on a lot of great new gear already!

Cheers, John

[quicky]

Yeah you have set quite a hard set of requirements for yourself. There is going to have to be a compromise somewhere!

I think by far the closest thing would be a HMG Porter pack. It is ~72L, has a simple harness, made from hybrid cuben fiber which is both waterproof and extremely strong and great for scrub (not so great for abrasion). They are also top loading, single compartmental and have daisy chains to boot. Oh yeah and it is ~900g.

I have the Porter which is basically the same pack but in a smaller capacity and I am very happy with it.

+ 1 on the Porter pack. Awesome choice.

[jmac]

Nuts, you have a good grasp of my needs and uses. It's a battle but I want to get everything within. Nothing hanging off. Maybe the Stilletto will do it. I'm always looking for other gear shavings.

Quicky when I was guiding a lot, Osprey was the brand my clients had the most trouble with. Poor construction quality, designed half a world away by people who didn't cater to my needs, it seemed to me. I can't see it happening unless a lot has changed. Sorry.

[jmac]

Robert H, thank you for the HMG. I will investigate.

The YouTube link of Nuts reminds me that the pack I'm replacing appears here and there in YouTube too. If you're curious of my kind of trip t's the Big Yellow Taxi in this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tY2zqBpwN8I

There's a Part 2 if your interest is held:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=relmfu&v=LPDjHWCTBKc

Cheers, John

[nq111]

R
nq111, I agree about the look of the harness on the BD Mission, which is why I was hoping for user testimony. Nice looking sac though. I

I like the harness (at least on the mercury 75) - just it sounded like you didn't want the moving arrangement.

[blacksheep]

I know you may be thinking that it is too small in volume, however, remember, that there is no standardised method for measuring pack volume.

Of course there is, but no standardised accountability for truthfulness in quoted volume.It is an absolute, and absolutes are very measurable. Some just don't. I can send a pic of how this is done if you'd like..

[Tony]

Of course there is, but no standardised accountability for truthfulness in quoted volume.It is an absolute, and absolutes are very measurable. Some just don't. I can send a pic of how this is done if you'd like..

Hi Cam,

That would be great if you would post a pic of how MacPac measure pack volume.

Tony

[jmac]

Once again, thank you all for your ideas. I am close to a decision in favour of the HMG Porter Expedition as suggested by Robert H. Maybe a bit small, but I'm keen to try it.

Plenty of good images of it in use here:

http://blog.hyperlitemountaingear.com/

Thanks again,

John

[quicky]

Quicky when I was guiding a lot, Osprey was the brand my clients had the most trouble with. Poor construction quality, designed half a world away by people who didn't cater to my needs, it seemed to me. I can't see it happening unless a lot has changed. Sorry.

No apology necessary jmac. I've been through one earlier Osprey that was of poor build too. However my recent experiences have been quite different. It's good to know (even more so for the OP) the experiences of others, especially when people like yourself have been immersed in things like guiding etc. and have had the ability to capture the issues of massive cohorts!

[stu]

edit

[doogs]

If by difficult conditions you mean remote , life and death sort of thing, then consider the macpac ascent. No moving bits, been used everywhere...we never see these back in our customer service centre.

I bought one of these yesterday for a lot of the reasons that Jmac has stated. I hope you don't take offence Cam but I may well reduce it's weight slightly by removing some gear loops that could get caught in the lovely Tasmanian scrub, which I am unlikely to use.
And at $199.50 on sale at the moment it is a bargain

[Mark_O]

Hi JMac,

Rarely post but thought I would as I am always on the lookout for something similar for my own needs. I still mean to catch up with you oneday but since emailing each other I haven't stopped off in Launceston at all. Look forward to catching up with you oneday soon though. Certainly let me know if or when you come to Hobart.

Can't say what will work for you but can say what the theoretical ideal pack for me would be with a bent much more towards packrafting rather than just off-track (Tas style) walking. Unfortunately I haven't found anyone who makes it though.

At work we have four HMG packs (2x Porter & 2x Expedition) with the four harness sizes that HMG make as we we're keen to find the right pack for work and personal packrafting trips/expeditions in Tas and were potentially looking at a small fleet of them. I had them all customised to include the 'Southwest' pockets for carrying PFDs, paddles, helmets, etc although I would probably recommend against the pockets for Tassie. The reason I say this is that I think the pockets reduce the packs inherent waterproofness. Even with fully seam sealing them inside and out we haven't found the packs as water resistant as we had heard from other experienced packrafter's reviews who dont have the pockets. With the HMG I was looking for a PACK that could act as a serious drybag rather than a drybag that could act as a pack. That said the cuben blend material is fantastic at not absorbing water - an extremely important consideration that I have learnt the hard way on a couple of packrafting missions using canvas and cordura packs. The HMG packs are great BUT above a certain weight are certainly not as comfortable(!) as my heavier Macpacs (Ascent XPD, Torre, Ravine & modified Pursuit). I carried 22kg in a HMG XPD earlier this year on the South Coast Track for work - I would have much preferred my Ascent initially but after a number of days when the pack was more like 18kg the HMG was fine. If you are in Hobart and wish to see the HMG packs in the flesh just let me know and I will see what I can do as if you are interested in going that way you need to get the pack harness and volume size just right - something that is hard to do online. Personally I would like to see a redesign of the HMG harness to be a little more comfortable with heavier weights but obviously UL packs are deliberately not designed for heavy loads.

I tend to chop and change for different length trips and the type of packrafting/off-track walking involved. With a major bent towards packrafting MY ideal pack would be either a Macpac Ascent XPD (with fewer straps) made out of HMG's cuben (although not white as they get seriously dirty and stained) OR a HMG Porter/XPD with a decent large padded waist belt although my current set up comes close to my perceived ideal pack for shorter (packrafting) trips.

Most of my packrafting trips are 5 days or less with a focus on the river environment and less on the scrub walking and longer trips that you are obviously keen on and good at. I, and now at least five of my friends, use Watershed Animas drypacks with modifications. For each of these I have added a removable sleeve that allows a reasonable waist harness to be utilized instead of the crappy waist band. A couple of us use BD removeable hipbelts which I really like whilst my wife uses a more padded Ascent XPD hipbelt. Others use a variety of other removeable day and a half pack hipbelts. I have also added a large simple cordura flap on the back of each Animas that allows PFDs, throw bags, helmets, paddles and sometimes drysuits to be carried. All of the modifications can be removed and stored inside the pack when on the water depending on the length of the trip. Watershed packs are 99.99% waterproof (much more waterproof than a Pelican case from my experience) although they are susceptible to punctures from abrasions and full-on scrub and so mine has lots of Aquaseal dots over it. Despite its dotty appearance it has never leaked on a river. The latest models are made out of an even tougher material than mine. Would predict that my Animas with modifications weighs 1300-1400g. I have other Watershed bags that I use personally and professionally for ww kayaking, rafting and sea kayaking and I love them and cannot go back to traditional roll-top 'dry'bags. The Animas is only 54 litres so for longer trips Like yours I think the 80 lt Westwater would be reasonably ideal for me as I could probably fit things inside that I have to carry on the outside of the smaller bag. If we start doing major packrafting trips for work I will go down this route with the necessary home modifications. I have carried up to 26 kg in/on the Animas for a day during a walkout but again it wasn't comfortable. However around or below 20kg I have found this set up to be ideal. One of the main reasons I have gone with the smaller 54lt is to force myself to go UL and ensure that the packraft once loaded remains agile. As you know a larger bag will seriously hinder this unless packed and attached very carefully.

I and friends have used also Macpac Ravines packrafting as I love the simplicity of the design. Unfortunately I have found that it (and similar packs) absorb and carry a surprising amount of water making them very cumbersome on and around the water. A very experienced friend has recommended the Arc'Teryx Naos as a suitable large volume pack for the sorts of trips we do. I haven't looked into them but it might be worth checking them out. He though was sponsored so got it free and had the model pre-side zip, hence more water resistant than the current model. They are heavy though - well over your 2kg limit. For non UL and non packrafting trips though I find my Ascent XPD (not the standard hipbelt model) to be a good compromise as it is pretty indestructible but again it is not light.

Sorry I cant be more helpful. I am sure I haven't solved your dilemma but hopefully the discossion has been useful. I look forward to hearing that you have found the perfect pack - let me know what it is!

Regards, Mark

[Gusto]

I am suprised at the suggestions of HMG packs. I have never seen or used them, but I would have thought that anything made of Cuben would be inapropriate for thick scrub. Even Cuben Hybrib material. Surely a dyneema fabric would suit Jmac's needs better.

It would seem the this thread is now leaning towards Cottage manufactuers. In which case it's worth mentioning http://www.zimmerbuilt.com/ . You'd need to contact them and send them the criteria that you're interested in.

[Mountain Rocket]

Hey Gusto, have you used/seen the hybrid cuben stuff? It is seriously tough and stacks up against thick scrub really well.
I think the advantage of dyneema x is much better abrasion resistance but then it has other trade offs (absorbs water, etc).

[jmac]

Once again thank you all for your thoughtful comments, particularly Mark, for your highly informative essay! Just as I was poised to order the HMG Porter Expedition, your comments on comfort have me hesitating. I don't need anything until mid January, so there is time to consider. Indeed, the Big Yellow Taxi still thinks she's coming out with me. I haven't the heart to tell her it's over.

I take your point on our slightly different emphases Mark, yours on rivers as wild places, mine on wild places including rivers. I see the beauty of the Watershed packs, but feel I need more of a river-capable rucsac, rather than a bush capable dry-bag, as it were.

On my first trip down the Franklin in January '81, we used domestic garbage bags with a knot in the top to keep our stuff "dry". Gear has certainly progressed since then. I might send a message to Mr. Zimmer. Maybe he can pull a rabbit from a hat for us. I don't have anything radical planned for this summer, just a nice relaxed wander in the country north and east of Bathurst Harbour. Maybe I could settle for a smaller pack this time, 70-75l perhaps.

It's been a stimulating discussion so far. Thank you all. I'll report back again soon.

Cheers, John

[quicky]

It would seem the this thread is now leaning towards Cottage manufactuers. In which case it's worth mentioning http://www.zimmerbuilt.com/ . You'd need to contact them and send them the criteria that you're interested in.

+1 on Zimmerbuilt. Add to that, Chris is a really nice guy, and will bend over backwards to help you.

[stu]

I still think the Lowe Alpine TFX Expedition 75:95 is worth a look John.
I have only used mine twice thus far (Frenchmans area / Folded Range) but it seems to be a pretty comfy ride.
If you are considering similar dyneema packs the chunky large load carrying capacity of this harness system might be suitable for you.
It also cinches down pretty well for smaller loads...will see how it feels on the POW's in a few weeks; sure to have a massive load for that one.
Good luck in your search & a happy retirement to old yella

[cams]

...I was quite excited by the McHale website. Their philosophy for harnesses and materials looks great, but the actual sacs look like they don't understand scrub. Pockets and tizzy bits hanging off. And extra zip compartments at the bottom. My current big pack is a custom job, so I'm not ruling out a custom job though!
...

Just some comments in relation to this. I have a Mchale LBP. You can get it made with whatever features you want. I like my packs without bits hanging off like you so in its most basic form mine strips down to harness, roll top closure, daisy chains and little plastic loops where side compression straps can be fitted. If you don't want "standard" features like water bottle holders he will substitute other features cost wise for them. If you don't want a bottom zippered compartment just say so. It will probably reduce the price. The options I got were hip belt pockets, side compression straps, single pocket lid, front pocket and a water bladder pocket that can attach to the side outside the pack, under the lid or inside as per the standard position.

I originally bought mine just for backpacking which it was probably going to be overkill for. However, I've since mainly used it for carrying my climbing rack so it has been used nearly every weekend since I got it a bit over a year ago, carrying nice sharp metal bits and being dragged around rocks. It is holding up fine. It weighs between 1.1kg and around 1.8kg depending on how it is configured.

The biggest downside was the time that it took. His communication wasn't very good at the time that I was doing it. My reasoning at the time for spending a bit (or a lot in some cases) extra was that I didn't want to go through 3 different packs buying in from overseas until I found one that fit nicely. I'd much rather get one with the exact features I wanted and was custom fitted to me first time. Although, some of the other options mentioned here either weren't available or I wasn't aware of them at the time. Let me know if you have any other questions about his process.

[blacksheep]

Of course there is, but no standardised accountability for truthfulness in quoted volume.It is an absolute, and absolutes are very measurable. Some just don't. I can send a pic of how this is done if you'd like..

Hi Cam,

That would be great if you would post a pic of how MacPac measure pack volume.

Tony

Sorry Tony, I only remembered this today...

We call our device "the voluminator" (patend pending, registered trademark, all rights reserved, copyright, etc etc)



The packs are filled to maximum capacity with hard platic balls (which do not compress and are small enough and fluid enough to fill all nooks and crannys).
The packs are then emptied into the Voluminator, where we take a measure...

and the volume is determined.


As I said, a meaured absolute. Our 60litre packs are 60 litres...strangley some other "60L " packs on the market seem a lot smaller....

In quoting volume we fill and count in all external pockets in our packs, but extendable stormthroats are not filled or included (ie: only to top of sack).

So, another mystery solved....now confess, who thought to quote litres we filled the packs with water? I know I've heard this theory more than once