Boots - help finding previous discussion re high vs low

[andrewa]

I tried a search, but failed. Maybe a "boy's look".

Daughter #3 wants some bushwalking boots. I'm pushing for low walking shoes, but wife (#1), who has dicky ankles wants high boots. I'm sure I found a discussion on here somewhere, but can't find it.

HELP.

A

[north-north-west]

It's your daughter who has to wear them. How about finding out what she prefers? Or what fits her best?

[andrewa]

Thx NNW,but I'm wanting to push he low cut light weight versions, and need some backup.

A

[north-north-west]

And if they don't suit her she'll hate walking and the time, money and effort will have been wasted.

[ryantmalone]

Thx NNW,but I'm wanting to push he low cut light weight versions, and need some backup.

A

I really don't want to sound rude here, but this is not your choice, and she should not be pushed into wearing a particular cut of boot because it is what you believe.

I grew up my whole life wearing big boots. Sure, they are a bit heavier and offer stability, however I am about to walk next weekend for 5 days with trail runners. The reason I am doing this is because I did a day hike recently wearing runners, and I enjoyed how lightweight they were. Truth be told, the trail runners that I got are damn comfortable, for what you get in comfort, you sacrifice in ankle stability.

The choice needs to be your daughters. These are her feet, her ankles, and her enjoyment that you are talking about.

[wildernesswanderer]

The right shoe is the one that you choose yourself. She needs to pick her own shoes that fit well and are comfortable.

[wayno]

also depends what sort of track she's walking on.... and how much experience she has walking on those tracks, the rougher the track and the less experience, i'd say start with boots at least mid height, they arent as restrictive or as heavy as full height...
i think shoes are for the more experienced or when your trails are smooth ones...

[Tony]

I tried a search, but failed. Maybe a "boy's look".

Daughter #3 wants some bushwalking boots. I'm pushing for low walking shoes, but wife (#1), who has dicky ankles wants high boots. I'm sure I found a discussion on here somewhere, but can't find it.

HELP.

A

Hi Andrew,

Try this thread Bushwalking with running shoes

There is some good discussion in it.

Below is one of the post I did on high vs low boots.

The best advice I can give is get her a proper fitting pair of shoes or boots that your daughter feels the most comfortable with.

Tony

Re: Bushwalking with running shoes

Postby Tony » 11 Jan 2010, 12:08
After the comment ' that boots do not stop ankle sprains any more that low top shoes do' by a Podiatrist who gave a talk about foot care at my last Canberra Bushwalking Club meeting, I have spent the last week researching the web to see what I could find out.

I typed 'boots vs shoes, ankle sprains' into google search engine and came up with many articles and research papers that talked about this issue.

Many of the articles spoke about that boots are better for avoiding sprained ankles, but I felt that this was a personal view as the articles not actually have any hard data to support what they where claiming, A lot of the articles where from boot manufactures and shops. After delving deeper into google and refining my search a bit I found some research papers that have looked into High top shoes (boots) and low top shoes and there effects on ankle sprains. I could not find any research projects into boots vs shoes with respect to bushwalking but there are several studies with basketball players, American foot ball players, soccer players and one comparing army recruits wearing boots and three quarter length basketball style shoes.

I am not sure if these results from studies into ankle injuries from sport and military training can be compared to what happens while bushwalking, my opinion is that it probably does go close.

Here are some conclusions, abstracts and some selected paragraphs from some studies.

Prevention of Acute Ankle Ligament Sprains in Sport

Martin P. Schwellnus

Clinical studies

The factor in footwear design that has most frequently investigated is the possible role of high-top shoes in reducing the risk of ankle sprains (Petrov 1988). The results from three studies indicate that, in the absence of additional taping or external support, wearing high-top shoes does not reduce the risk of ankle sprains. Indeed, in one study, the wearing of low-top shoes resulted in a lower incidence of ankle sprains compared to high-top shoes (Rovere et al. 1988). In two recently published meta-analysises, it was also concluded that the role of footwear in the prevention of ankle sprains was not clear (Quinn et al. 2000).

In summery, although a protective influence of footwear is suggested from the results of biomechanical studies, footwear without additional support from taping and bracing does not appear to have a strong influence on the risk of ankle sprain. The potential negative effect that footwear may have on the proprioceptive function of the foot requires further investigation.


Effect of High-top and low-top shoes on Ankle inversion

Mark D. Ricard, PhD; Shane S. Schuties, PhD, PT, ATC; Jose J. Saret, MS, ATC

Conclusions: The high-top shoes were more effective in reducing the amount and the rate of inversion than low top shoes. Depending on the load conditions, high-top shoes may help prevent some ankle sprains.

This is from the introduction

High-top athletic shoes are frequently to augment ankle support because they may provide increased resistance to inversion. The increase cost of these shoes may be justified if they decrease ankle injury rates. Not all studies, however, support the finding that high-top shoes may reduce the potential for injury. Currently, consensus is lacking among researchers and clinicians concerning the extent to which high-top shoes protect the ankle from inversion trauma.

1: Foot Ankle. 1991 Aug;12(1):26-30.

Risk factors for lateral ankle sprain: a prospective study among military recruits.

Milgrom C, Shlamkovitch N, Finestone A, Eldad A, Laor A, Danon YL, Lavie O, Wosk J, Simkin A.
Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, Hadassah Hospital, Ein Kerem, Jerusalem, Israel.

In a prospective study of risk factors for lateral ankle sprain among 390 male Israeli infantry recruits, a 18% incidence of lateral ankle sprains was found in basic training. There was no statistically significant difference in the incidence of lateral ankle sprains between recruits who trained in modified basketball shoes or standard lightweight infantry boots. By multivariate stepwise logistic regression a statistically significant relationship was found between body weight x height (a magnitude which is proportional to the mass moment of inertia of the body around a horizontal axis through the ankle), a previous history of ankle sprain, and the incidence of lateral ankle sprains. Recruits who were taller and heavier and thus had larger mass moments of inertia (P = 0.004), and those with a prior history of ankle sprain (P = 0.01) had higher lateral ankle sprain morbidity in basic training.

1: Sports Med. 1995 Oct;20(4):277-80.Links

The role of shoes in the prevention of ankle sprains.

Barrett J, Bilisko T.

University of Oklahoma, Health Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, USA.

Ankle sprains are a common sports injury that can cause significant, chronic disability. Studies aimed at prevention through the use of footwear have focused on the biomechanical aspects of foot and ankle anatomy, proprioceptive input of the foot/ankle complex, external stresses applied to the joint, and shoe traction. These studies support the use of high top shoes for ankle sprain prevention because of their ability to limit extreme ranges of motion, provide additional proprioceptive input and decrease external joint stress. Despite this biomechanical evidence, clinical trials are inconclusive as to the clinical benefit of high top shoes in the prevention of ankle sprains. Further study is necessary to delineate the benefits of shoe designs for ankle sprain prevention.

Some other information about ankles

If you have already sprained your ankle you are more likely to sprain your ankle again than someone that had not sprained his or her ankle before.

Athletes who have suffered a previous sprain decreased risk of injury if a brace is worn.

Sex does not appear to be a risk factor for suffering an ankle sprain.

My conclusions

The above abstracts, conclusions and paragraphs is only a little part of what I have read on this topic and on the evidence that I have read my conclusion is that studies have show that it is inconclusive that Boots are better than shoes for lowering the incidence of sprained ankles for sports which bushwalking can be considered part of.

Tony

[/quote]

[ULWalkingPhil]

Good to see sex dont cause a sprained ankle:grin:

I stopped wearing boots a year ago. Best thing i have done. I completed a 10 day hike with runners weighing 250 grams each.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[Strider]

Good to see sex dont cause a sprained ankle:grin:

Depends on the position I guess

[wayno]

i alternate between boots and shoes according to the trip..
some rough trips i would only wear boots on. easier tracks i'm fine in shoes.
only sprained y ankle in shoes, never in boots

[Hallu]

Yep I agree with everyone, the foot wants what the foot wants. No need to force her.

[wayno]

Yep I agree with everyone, the foot wants what the foot wants. No need to force her.

just maybe not ballet shoes...

[Son of a Beach]

I am about to walk next weekend for 5 days with trail runners. The reason I am doing this is because I did a day hike recently wearing runners, and I enjoyed how lightweight they were. Truth be told, the trail runners that I got are damn comfortable, for what you get in comfort, you sacrifice in ankle stability.

Even the ankle stability is debatable. There is some evidence to suggest that boots don't provide any significant ankle support after all. The jury is still out for me and I tend to take up both sides of the debate from time to time. I also walk barefoot most places and even go bushwalking barefoot on some occasions.

[wayno]

I am about to walk next weekend for 5 days with trail runners. The reason I am doing this is because I did a day hike recently wearing runners, and I enjoyed how lightweight they were. Truth be told, the trail runners that I got are damn comfortable, for what you get in comfort, you sacrifice in ankle stability.

Even the ankle stability is debatable. There is some evidence to suggest that boots don't provide any significant ankle support after all. The jury is still out for me and I tend to take up both sides of the debate from time to time. I also walk barefoot most places and even go bushwalking barefoot on some occasions.

barefoot? mate. your sponsors will be rolling their eyes in disbelief

[Son of a Beach]

None of them have offered me any footware yet. What can I say? What a sponsorship opportunity!

[ryantmalone]

I am about to walk next weekend for 5 days with trail runners. The reason I am doing this is because I did a day hike recently wearing runners, and I enjoyed how lightweight they were. Truth be told, the trail runners that I got are damn comfortable, for what you get in comfort, you sacrifice in ankle stability.

Even the ankle stability is debatable. There is some evidence to suggest that boots don't provide any significant ankle support after all. The jury is still out for me and I tend to take up both sides of the debate from time to time. I also walk barefoot most places and even go bushwalking barefoot on some occasions.

The old army boots that I grew up with didn't give my ankle much room to roll itself, but that was back in the day when people actually knew how to make a solid pair of boots, and when hikers were more tough than fashionable.

I've thought about hiking barefoot about as much as I've considered using my trailrunners for actually running though.

[north-north-west]

Yep I agree with everyone, the foot wants what the foot wants. No need to force her.

just maybe not ballet shoes...

Doing the Southern Ranges earlier this year, I was climbing up one of the steeper and muddier stretches towards Moonlight Flats, when two young women came down, wearing microshorts, tank tops and . . . ballet flats. What amazed me was that they had barely a speck of mud on any part of them except the soles of those shoes. They seemed quite happy, so I didn't bother mentioning the three leeches they'd acquired . . .

[Onestepmore]

i wear low cut Oboze (sp??) - not flimsy, not clodhumpers. let her decide is mho

[andrewa]

Thx Tony, that was part of what I was looking for.

Son of a beach, I was also after something related to that debate..

I have some recollection of reading a good article about why high boots do not support your ankles any better than low ones/shoes, and that was what I was after.

This daughter is 14. I'd like her to be presented with some factual info about boot design so she can make a choice.

A

[wayno]

iluvswtas made a comment about the people recommending using shoes,
he said how many of them had walked off track in tasmania with shoes?
it depends whre you walk? where were the people walking that the study surveyed? were they all on american trails that are often like footpaths?
if you are walking on a root and rock covered track , sidling a steep hill. negotiating thick scrub, you should only be in shoes once you've gained experience in that terrain and even then i wouldnt be in shoes. most nz bushwalkers opt for boots because of the condition of the terrain they walk on and these are people who know what they are doing , what footwear you chooses comes down to the terrain vs experience as much as what you THINK you should wear... i've been tramping in nz for thirty years and there are a lot of places i wouldnt walk without boots if i had a heavy pack....
i know so many people in nz who have sprained their ankles in shoes and not in boots, so that study that gets quoted i suspect is mainly for people walking on a certain grade of track..

a reasonable portion of the people i know who have sprained their ankles have done it on the coast to coast multisport event in trail shoes on the boulder strewn run section.... i know a lot of people who have tramped that river in boots ad heavy packs with no problems.... so to just say wear whatever you want to someone who is starting out is irresponsible if they are going to take to rough terrain, take the trails into account, young people dont understand the full ins and outs of choosing gear. my brother in law got into tramping recently and bought what he wanted to buy then sold it again when he realised he'd made bad choices after
using it...

people quote scientific studies like they were the last word on a subject, well you need to understand the circumstances of a study and how it actually applies to your situation , and they are stll just interpretation of data that can be done badly.... TAKE ALL THE FACTORS OF YOUR SITUATION INTO ACCOUNT WHEN MAKING A DECISION, and thats YOUR SITUATION, NOT OTHER PEOPLES...

[Nuts]

Tony answered the original question Wayno Hard off track walking wasn't mentioned.. If just personal opinion (studies aside) i'd say weak ankles cause ankle spains, i'd be so bold as to say almost everyone has weak ankles (save those that are on rough tracks several days a week). I'd recommend boots (or lots of build up exercise) for Andrews first wife (assuming he was after recommendations.. and likes his first wife)..

[wayno]

Tony answered the original question Wayno Hard off track walking wasn't mentioned..

cool but i think i needed to mention it again because people seemed to have missed that point and were getting a bit one eyed about going for shoes or letting a novice decide on their own
for any novice explain the situation and the pluses and minuses at least if they are going to make a decision let it be a well informed one. .
personally i'd tell a novice get boots, if it was my child i'd just get boots and tell them why they are getting boots, if they need another pair later then they can decide themselves and hope they are making an informed decision rather than just switching to shoes because they think the gras is greener on the other side

[wildernesswanderer]

Interesting the idea of high boots not offering anymore ankle support than runners, so I thought I'd add a high stress sport to the idea of boots not offering more ankle support. For 15 years of my life I played ice hockey and then inline hockey. I have never seen a set of low cut ice hockey boots, why? because you need all the ankle support as possible and low cut style skates would never give the ankle support as high boots would. Why do hikers debate that high boots are no different than trail runners for ankle support is probably conceived from the fact that the show manufacturers want people to buy their shoes.

If you feel comfortable walking trails in runners go for it, if you want maximum protection for your feet and ankles then boots will provide more. I guess if the trails are easy and the walking a stroll then shoes are fine, but if you intend to do hard trails I would always go boots, nothing like a twisted/sprained ankle to get her to not want to go again

[wayno]

given that the most supportive high boots on the market virtually imobilise the ankle and make it virtually impossible to sprain an ankle , it doesnt hold any water that boots don't stop sprained ankles

[Son of a Beach]

I am about to walk next weekend for 5 days with trail runners. The reason I am doing this is because I did a day hike recently wearing runners, and I enjoyed how lightweight they were. Truth be told, the trail runners that I got are damn comfortable, for what you get in comfort, you sacrifice in ankle stability.

Even the ankle stability is debatable. There is some evidence to suggest that boots don't provide any significant ankle support after all. The jury is still out for me and I tend to take up both sides of the debate from time to time. I also walk barefoot most places and even go bushwalking barefoot on some occasions.

The old army boots that I grew up with didn't give my ankle much room to roll itself, but that was back in the day when people actually knew how to make a solid pair of boots, and when hikers were more tough than fashionable.

I've thought about hiking barefoot about as much as I've considered using my trailrunners for actually running though.

This may be one of the other topics you were looking for: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11170
(I took the boots-may-provide-ankle-support side of the debate in that topic, whereas I took the boots-may-not-provide-ankle-support side in this topic. )

[davidm]

I just bought a pair of ecolites for under $50 :s
Costco special

I know price isn't the best thing to base purchases on, but they were pretty comfortable and will certainly be better than the volleys I've been walking in! Ill let you know how they are after they get a solid work out...

[north-north-west]

This daughter is 14. I'd like her to be presented with some factual info about boot design so she can make a choice.

And of course you're spending as much time and effort digging out information supporting the 'boots are better' philosophy, aren't you?

[The Perambulator]

I would doubt that you would find one NRL player who plays without having their ankles strapped by a person who is monitered and directed by the teams Doctors physio etc. I know for a fact that the Canberra Raiders players have their ankles strapped for some training sessions. I would imagine that other football codes would have similiar procedures. On this basis I don't think the footwear of footballers would be relevant to bushwalkers.

[vagrom]

Boots: extended walking e.g Tasmania:- for comfort, stretch, breathability; (The 3 "L's": Leather, leather,leather). Oh yeah; and quality build...
Avoid Goretex lining, unless they're for lightweight, day/weekend walking where heat's less of an issue. If they get wet, leather (imho), will always dry quicker than boots with a synthetic (plastic), inner lining.
First boots? Don't completely ignore a good old pair of Rossi Mulgas.