Brands that aren't/are what they once were-Insert Brand

[ILUVSWTAS]

The Minaret and Olympus tents have not had major updates for 20 years, so not sure when this "going to the dogs happened".

Didnt the Minaret recently change from 2.4kg to 2.1 kg?? There must have been some kind of change for this to occur surely.....

Meh, this is a bushwalking site. If Mr Safety wants to make his first post a simply g'day, or a rant about gear he isnt happy with, whats the difference. This is after all an internet forum.

Ease up stiffs.

[blacksheep]

As I stated, fabric.
Stiff? Hmmm...no, just being present and responsive..

[ILUVSWTAS]

As I stated, fabric.
Stiff? Hmmm...no, just being present and responsive..

Ok. So a fabric change doesnt qualify as a design change? Very clever marketing.

[Strider]

But I simply don't believe that outsourcing manufacturing to asia produces as good a quality finished-product as doing it at home, using your own staff.

This is an incredibly naive statement.

Product quality is only ever as good as the quality control mechanisms that are managing it. Regardless of country of manufacture.

It would also be incredibly naive to assume that any business would sign up product quality sight-unseen with any offshore manufacturer, and without putting their own supervisory measures or resources in place on that factory floor to ensure continuous and ongoing monitoring of product quality.

Ok. So a fabric change doesnt qualify as a design change? Very clever marketing.

I would doubt commenting on a fabric change in response to a question on a forum classifies as "marketing".

Last edited by Strider on Tue 12 Jun, 2012 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[biggbird]

I have to agree with ILSWT here I think, MrSafety is just expressing an opinion,, to which he is most definitely entitled. If he thinks that the quality of Macpac gear has deteriorated, and he isn't happy with it, well that's up to him.

Personally, I've heard less than complimentary reports about Macpac clothing, but very good reports about their tents and sleeping bags, so much so that my partner and I recently purchased an Express 600 STD each, and so far have been impressed. We were warned off Macpac clothing as several people I had spoken to had issues with delaminating, and complained of general poor quality. Whether this was true, whether they were simply unlucky, or whether they were simply using the gear for things it wasn't designed for, I'm not sure. When looking for a rain jacket that suited our needs, this, along with a few other things (velcro closures being the main one) steered us away from Macpac. Purchased a Mont Tempest instead, and so far very impressed, and it was cheaper to boot. Again though, it's horses for courses. If one buys gear unsuitable for the use it will be put to, it's not really fair to complain when it doesn't work.

With that being said, I think a lot of the responses here have been a little unfair. I think it certainly was an inflammatory post (way to get off to a good start!), but certainly less so than some I have seen on here. End of the day, the guy was just expressing his opinion, and though I understand that people have reputations to uphold etc, I don't think this is something to get up in arms about.

Wondering whether I will need to duck for cover now too

[Strider]

I have to agree with ILSWT here I think, MrSafety is just expressing an opinion,, to which he is most definitely entitled. If he thinks that the quality of Macpac gear has deteriorated, and he isn't happy with it, well that's up to him.

I am extremely proud of what we do here, and have zero interest in changing that.

Straight from the horses mouth - like it, or lump it.

[photohiker]

Ok. So a fabric change doesnt qualify as a design change? Very clever marketing.

I would doubt commenting on a fabric change in response to a question on a forum classifies as "marketing".

I think what ILUV is referring to is that changing the fabric IS changing the design.

That's possible, I'd take that as implementation rather than design. The design is in the shape and structure of the tent. The choice of material is important to give a level of strength and waterproofness to the design, but choosing a lighter fabric without impacting those features means its the same design tent but lighter.

[ULWalkingPhil]

Off all the Macpac clothing I've purchased thus far, I've not had any major problems with. I've got a Fleece jacket I purchased from Macpac apx 4 or 5 years ago, it still looks brand new, It's had a lot of use, unfortunately or should I say fortunately, depends which way I look into it, It don't fit me anymore, It's way to big for me now. I have lost a lot of weight since purchasing that fleece jacket. I purchased a Down Jacket at the Sydney store just over a year ago, Very happy with that jacket. Keeps me very warm. Just a tad heavy, would have been nice if it was a lot lighter.
I've also own some of the Merino wool under garments which I'm very happy with.
And last but not least the Prophet eVent Rain pants. Had some issues with it when I purchased, The DWR performance was very poor on first use. Retreated the DWR and it's been fine ever since. Quality appears to be exceptional on the Prophet Rain Pants, again, main problem is it's way to heavy for me now.

Let me rephrase, way to heavy. I should say it's way to heavy to cart around inside my backpack on extended hikes. Otherwise the weight while wearing is fine.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Ok. So a fabric change doesnt qualify as a design change? Very clever marketing.

I would doubt commenting on a fabric change in response to a question on a forum classifies as "marketing".

I think what ILUV is referring to is that changing the fabric IS changing the design.

That's possible, I'd take that as implementation rather than design. The design is in the shape and structure of the tent. The choice of material is important to give a level of strength and waterproofness to the design, but choosing a lighter fabric without impacting those features means its the same design tent but lighter.

Exactly. Clever.

[Gusto]

It would be ridiculous to think that a brand isn't going to update it's fabrics with more modern equivalents as time progresses.

All brands do this. What is the problem as long as the website and marketing states the name of new fabric?

Many tents would still be using PU Nylon if the brands were restricted from updating to Sil Nylon.

Besides, the tents being discussed have had fabric changes throughout their history well before Macpac's manufacturing moved out of New Zealand.

[frenchy_84]

Im pretty surprised about the negative reaction towards MrSafety. In another recent thread a member "expresses" his opinion, which happens to be all negative, on Garmin, Memory Maps, Tasmap and any other GPS software which doesnt meet his specific needs. All companies with reputations, yet that doesnt get much attention or does mrsafety need to have 2868 posts before he can post negative opinions?

I personaly dont like their business model but if thats what they need to do to be successful into the future good luck to them.

[blacksheep]

Yes, we use a much higher spec Sil nylon. That is not a design change. We were able to performance gains, weight loss at an acceptable level of price increase we absorbed in margin. Thank you for allowing to illustrate how it works.

[frenchy_84]

Macpac do get alot of crap on this site, and i think thats because everyone actually cares about the company and their gear. Its the gear that you have grown up with and can rely on. So while you may get the negative comments atleast one positive is that people actually care about Macpac and there are also plenty of others here ready to stick up for them.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Well said on all fronts Frenchie.

I still LOVE my Minaret (old model) and my Sanctuary sleeping bag is second to none!!! However.... my cascades pack was quite ordinary (another friend bought one, used it once.. then sold it for whatever he could get) And the clothing (as mentioned already) has deteriorated in recent years. Ups and downs.

I've found that when I was first into Bushwalking, MACPAC was one of the top of the range brands. The longer I was in the game and the more I got into my gear, I realised there are much much better brands out there, However for most people and the style of walks they do, macpac gear would suit them perfectly.

[maddog]

Macpac do get alot of crap on this site, and i think thats because everyone actually cares about the company and their gear. Its the gear that you have grown up with and can rely on. So while you may get the negative comments atleast one positive is that people actually care about Macpac and there are also plenty of others here ready to stick up for them.

I recently picked up a Macpac sleeping bag, and have a number of packs, etc - but I only buy from Macpac at their sales. If I had paid full price for any of these items, and only then become aware of a 'sale price', I would certainly feel ripped-off.

Given that a discounting sales strategy is one for which Kathmandu is well known for, that Jan Cameron (founder of Kathmandu) is an owner at the private company Macpac ( http://afr.com/p/business/companies/ver ... rrGX13fDPP ), and that similar 'house brand' items (e.g. pots) are appearing at both Kathmandu and McPac (thanks Mr Safety), perhaps such fears are well founded.

Also, in regards to prices, given the price of overseas brands (when independently imported by the consumer), the high dollar, and cheap offshore manufacturing - it is no surprise there has been little by the way of price inflation in the last decade or so.

[creeping_moses]

I love Macpac merino (especially the 150 line and the 280 long sleeve) and wear it almost everyday for days (weeks?) on end without contracting bacterial infections or stinking everyone out of house and home. I wore a merino 150 top on the first 65km run of this years 3Peaks race, wore it all the way to Freycinet in a hot sweaty bunk with another bloke and then run in it for the 35km at Freycinet. After this I took it off and smelt it, and there was the faintest smell. Then I smelt my armpits and nearly died. I could have done the whole event in one top and it would have been fine in my book... Maybe I'm just a putrid human.

The prophet pants and jacket are the only other things I can comment on, and they are in my opinion very robust, but seem to hold water more than a goretex proshell. The eVent is much more hard wearing though. If you want lighter alpine style jackets then maybe go proshell. If you want a scrub basher for getting you actoss the PoW, maybe eVent...I still rate Monts hydronaute Pro the best though. That might come back to being a putrid human also...

The brand is trying to survive in a climate of tough competition, savvy shoppers and increasing interest in travel-casual clothing lines. The brand must evolve.

I just hope the merino stays the same.

[Moondog55]

Macpac also gets a lot of "Love" on this forum, there are other shops that get nothing but S**T when the name is mentioned> K#############U any-one?

Bushwalkers are a finicky, fussy, educated ( well usually ) minority market, mountaineers even more so and those who climb big mountains probably even more so again, as their life depends on the reliability of the gear ( and clothing ) so legitimate complaints should be taken seriously.

[Penguin]

Macpac do get alot of crap on this site, and i think thats because everyone actually cares about the company and their gear. Its the gear that you have grown up with and can rely on. So while you may get the negative comments atleast one positive is that people actually care about Macpac and there are also plenty of others here ready to stick up for them.

I agree with this, ILUVSWTAS beat me to the punch.

I have original Macpac pack, Cascade and Tore, and love them both. The Cascade I use as my weekly "training" pack and very comfortable and robust. Muck of my early gear was Macpac. Over the years you get to find what specialty manufacturers/retailers make that suits you. I love my Zpacks cuben jacket, even if it is a bit short. Not so keen on their chaps (clothing that is ). Golite pack is the go. etc.

I was a little taken aback with the enthusiasm for a point of view for a first time poster in the initial post on this topic. As other have said, this is an open forum and all views welcome. A launch like this is a little unusual, but has stimulated a good conversation.

Long live suppliers that try to make gear for Australian and New Zealand conditions. We are not Europe or Nth America. Where can I get a Cuben jacket that is a bit longer? Any body out there willing to give this a try.

[Gusto]

I thinks it's perfectly reasonable to critique/express disdain towards gear design/construction/fabrics etc. if there is a well structured and logical reason for complaint. But if complaints are over dramatised and lacking a clear description/example of the complaint then it is unproductive and just spreading un founded rumours. If one is so adament that equipment is of such a poor quality then they should be very specific as to why.

My reasons as to why I prefer complaints to be well evidenced and explained are:
A) A clear description/opinion by the author helps others avoid purchasing the same equipment and finding the same mistake.
B) It also allows for further R & D into a product to allow them to improve.
C) Sometimes people complain about things and not really understand how some gear is intended to be used. It can be pretty rude to be so adamently poo pooing a brand or model of equipment when in actual fact it's user error.

The venting thing about the Olmypus strikes me as odd. All I can tell is that the amount of Vents on the fly has increased from being one on each door, to now being one on each door plus the extra vents beside each door. I personally don't like the Olympus and I disagree with the rear vestibule being made much smaller by increasing the inner length. (This was done many years ago.), But neither of my complaints about the tent are very serious, fundamentally it's still a robust and well functioning tent. I happen to be fussy as to what I like. I don't describe them as being terrible because of that.

[Nuts]

Where can I get a Cuben jacket that is a bit longer? Any body out there willing to give this a try.

Yes!!!, lets glue a tail on it

[Overlandman]

I have been a fan of macpac for 20 + years, The best thing macpac have done for me is opening a store in Launceston, The staff are fairly good, there is plenty of room in store. My recent purchases have been a new Torre, & some clothing for this winter. I also only buy when there are sales on.
Keep up the good work,
Regards Overlandman

[nq111]

For me Macpac has lost some gloss through:
- the sale / discount model - it smells like Kathmandu
- that brands around the world are so much more accessible now, so they are playing in a much bigger pond even in Australia, so harder to 'stand out', so to speak

But they still make some worthwhile stuff I am sure.

Have no problem with manufacturing in Asia etc. - what matters is how it is managed. Not sure what macpac does - but what Osprey did, for example, is first class.

One thing, the way blacksheep interacts on this site should be a model to other manufacturers, always professional (despite some fair ripping by members at times). It is the way of the future to maintain such close contact with the leading edge of the market through such media and should serve macpac well for the future.

[Nuts]

A cone of silence seems to surround the failing jackets? Even that, most brands have similar issues product to product, we just don't hear of them.
Good to have industry reps on here, much easier not to bother. I personally doubt that the press here makes a huge difference, hasn't sent Kathmandu to the doghouse..

[wayno]

outdoor clothing manufacturing has turned into a complex business, the no of fabrics now available are inumerable.
so many decisions to make on the choices on top of the design decision, some decisions you like , some you don't. some decisions that some people love, others loath.
various companies have gone up and down in my estimation over time.
decicions like gore tex versus event, where using event effectively means not being able to sell gore tex as well...
since gore tex is a proven seller, it's a major strategic decision on whether to keep gore or change away from it and hope that the decision is well received...
thats just one example. you can write a brand off one year but look out the next. i've been impressed by columbia recently, they've never been regarded as a serious outdoor company, talking to the shop manager in the local mountain designs shop he said a year ago he wouldnt have touched them but he's been impressed by them recently. they've poured serious money into R&D on new products. thats just one example how brands can change... i'm not putting columbia above any particular brands here, it's just an example of a brand changing fast. and kathmandu i've been impressed with some of their gear recently, they do a bewildering array of gear using a lot of the latest fabrics out. but i'm still wary of most of their gear, theres a lot that i still dont like about a lot of their gear.
macpac to me are a mixed bag, again some good gear and some not so good that others have commented on in the past ,
thing is how well do the companies really listen to the unfavourable feedback and really do something about it , cut their losses and dump the decisions that didnt work out and change direction. how much to hey stick with the tried and true for safety sake... how many people are still wearing the likes of swandri? norsewear? that used to rule the market, then there are the brands that don't exist any more, like hallmark , for whatever reason they couldnt adapt and last like companies we are mentioning here....

[Franco]

From Wayno:
i've been impressed by columbia recently, they've never been regarded as a serious outdoor company, talking to the shop manager in the local mountain designs shop he said a year ago he wouldnt have touched them

As far as I know Mountain Designs and Outdoor Performance (the Columbia importers...) are part of the same company.
Franco

[wayno]

columbia now own mountain hardwear.

[Strider]

For me Macpac has lost some gloss through:
- the sale / discount model - it smells like Kathmandu
- that brands around the world are so much more accessible now, so they are playing in a much bigger pond even in Australia, so harder to 'stand out', so to speak

This last part is probably part of the reason they have moved to a sales model that allows greater public interaction, and the introduction of product lines that better serve the generalities of that market, I suspect.

[Vendacious]

I'm a periodic reader and first time writer on this site. I've done a reasonable amount of bushwalking in Oz and some in NZ - including Larapinta, Overland, Thredbo to Kiandra, Grand Canyon and so on. I've never bought Macpac. I chose Fairydown instead for my first pack. Back then I remember Macpac was number one. Then I chose One Planet. Lately I'm trying Granite Gear - going lightweight. My two cents may therefore only be worth one, but here it is.

I was somewhat shocked by the vitriol Mr Safety's post has inspired. Is that because people are defined by their gear too much, a sense of misplaced patriotism (its not made in NZ anymore) or because there is a kernel of truth to it? Macpac used to stand alone, now its one of many similar products made in Asia. The Macpac stores in Sydney and Chatswood are close in appearance to Kathmandu. Inside its a clothes shop. Go to the Macpac website now and what you'll see is UP TO 50% OFF and a 'Clearance Section'.

Black Sheep, I find your response to a customer offensive and unprofessional. From your comments I understand you are proud of the fact some of your products have hardly changed in 25 years. Realy?!

I have no doubt that heavy duty equipment will last longer if I beat it on rocks or pitch in on Everest. That's not because of quality of design, materials or technology. That's just because its heavy. For the 99% of bushwalking / tramping that takes place in the real world other manufacturers have invested time and effort coming up with packs that carry just as much, are more comfortable and weigh over 1 kg less.

For those other haters who posted - you are not defined by your stuff. Macpac is not a religion and questioning it is not sacrilege. Where would we be without contrarian opinions?

[Gusto]

For me Macpac has lost some gloss through:
- the sale / discount model - it smells like Kathmandu
- that brands around the world are so much more accessible now, so they are playing in a much bigger pond even in Australia, so harder to 'stand out', so to speak

I'll defend the Olmypus in terms of its design but when it comes to price it's a different story. It is rather ridiculous that you can save over $400 on an Olympus tent just by being a member. I consider that to be proof that the full rrp of their products to be highly inflated. This is an issue that has turned many away from Kathmandu, and it will do the same to Macpac.

When you factor in quality vs rrp price then the value of Macpac gear has dropped. Their new distribution/sales structure really should have enabled the rrp of their items to drop significantly. Some of their items have dropped slightly in price, but not much.

Kathmandu quickly became Crapmandu, and Macpac may fall in to the same trap an become Crapac. Deceptive advertised prices alone will do this. Many people on here acknowledge that when Kathmandu is on sale they consider buying it. If Kathmandu's rrp price on every item dropped by 20% then I they would gain start to regain respect.

I am curious to hear from Blacksheep as to a reason for a $400+ discount just for signing up to be a member and agreeing to receive a newsletter.

[wayno]

someone commented kathmandu hiked their rrp by up quite a bit over the last year and the discounts increased correspondingly..... now 60 to 70% discount....
that is just ridiculous, considering how often they discount, who are they kidding rrp is the recommended rip off price and if you are willng to pay that you deserve to be ripped off....