Bushwalking gear and paraphernalia. Electronic gadget topics (inc. GPS, PLB, chargers) belong in the 'Techno Babble' sub-forum.

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TIP: The online Bushwalk Inventory System can help bushwalkers with a variety of bushwalk planning tasks, including: Manage which items they take bushwalking so that they do not forget anything they might need, plan meals for their walks, and automatically compile food/fuel shopping lists (lists of consumables) required to make and cook the meals for each walk. It is particularly useful for planning for groups who share food or other items, but is also useful for individual walkers.
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Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Mon 21 Jan, 2013 10:34 am

ryantmalone wrote:Let me be clear here. I'm definitely not saying that people shouldn't carry a PLB, they are a great thing to carry for those who want to be as safe as possible, I'm just highlighting that it is a personal choice, and a choice that needs to be based on a combination of factors, including above all else, experience.


I'm hearing you loud and clear and I'm nodding in agreement while I read. Others are not recognising the 'choice' factor.
I think it's time to end the thread.
There are better things to be doing, like hiking for instance, with or without the PLB.

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Mon 21 Jan, 2013 11:00 am

Unfortunately, because they have an epirb and a percieved safety net, you see clowns in locations perhaps they wouldnt and shouldnt be in.
But since they are there, its jsut as well they have an epirb :roll:.
Once you catch the tail of this argument ....

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Mon 21 Jan, 2013 11:07 am

mor often than not PLB's are being set off for genuine rescues,
it should be impressed on purchasers by shops the scenarios whre you do and dont use one..
if you do end up in the crap it saves SAR a lot of time and effort if you do have PLB
but you still need to inform people of your intentions and not use hte plb as a total panacea if things go , wrong they are still falable. and you can potentially loose it or get seperated from it.
framkly i think theres a certain amnount of pig headedness or selfishness in those who can afford them and dont bother taking them especailly those who walk alone. when theres no cell phone coverage, i did a survey on here and the majority of people were using them around two thirds or more when there was no cell phone coverage.
sure you might never need it, but if you do, you'll make life asier for everyone concerned if you have it. yes its your choice and your'e free to choose and no one can make you take one etc. i'll respect your decision if you dont want to take one but i won't agree with it.

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Mon 21 Jan, 2013 11:27 am

Responsble PLB/EPIRB use http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3613780.htm particularly at 4:40 minutes on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujtJkAh8tuM
There were a heap of articles, interviews at the time.
Last edited by Rob A on Mon 21 Jan, 2013 11:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Mon 21 Jan, 2013 11:36 am

theres a show on nz tv at the moment showing helicopters searching the wilderness in nz for lost people.
massive difference in the operattion between those that have locator beacons and those that don't. even with a locator beacon its not straight forward. the beacon signal can echo around a valley sending the searchers in the wrong direction and it can still take a while for them to locate someone in rough countty and thick bush,
without a locator beacon the extra resources time and effort required can be absolutely massive and a successful result can't be guaranteed
certain for people travelling off trail. you certainly should have a locator beacon, if you're on your own off trail i'd call it essential. and
for anyone travelling anywhere out of cell phone range, i'd still say its necessary to carry one.. i've done search and rescue and i know how tireing a manual land search can be. a lot of people are out there giving their time and energy to find people in the wilderness and that could often be aleviated with a locator beacon.

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Mon 21 Jan, 2013 11:46 am

another scenario is you come across a party that needs help and they dont have a locator beacon, sure its not your responsibility to have a locator beacon for other people but its another scenario where your trip plans may end up badly affected as you may have to stop and render more assitance if you dont have a locator beacon especially to a less experienced party than yourself. happens in nz where trampers have had to privide clothing to other ill equipped parties and go for help themselves. when otherwise they could have set off a locator beacon and avoided a bigger interuption to tehir own trip.

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Mon 21 Jan, 2013 3:46 pm

Each to their own, choice I guess, funny though, go 2 nautical miles off shore and you must have a beacon, walk 30k's into the wilderness and it's alright I'm experienced don't need one

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Mon 21 Jan, 2013 4:45 pm

wayno wrote:theres a show on nz tv at the moment showing helicopters searching the wilderness in nz for lost people.
massive difference in the operattion between those that have locator beacons and those that don't. even with a locator beacon its not straight forward.


Great TV show, "High Country Rescue", Ive been acquiring it and its a good watch, convinced me to purchase a Spot Connect. Some of the situations people put themselves in without the use of any type of communication device is crazy. This show certainly high-lights a few of those and not just the Kiwis, plenty of Aussies over there getting stuck as well. Its good to see the behind the scenes of these rescues, the guys do a pretty darn professional job while dealing with some stupidity sometimes. Seeing how rescues are planned out and tackled is great, gives you a chance to find out the things that may help you when it comes to a rescue situation. Lets try to make it as easy as possible for rescuers thats for sure.

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Mon 21 Jan, 2013 8:16 pm

wildernesswanderer wrote:Each to their own, choice I guess, funny though, go 2 nautical miles off shore and you must have a beacon, walk 30k's into the wilderness and it's alright I'm experienced don't need one


You're treating this as though me and others are of the idea that our experience means that we don't need a beacon because "she'll be right"...

Please understand that you are wrong on that, and please know that I am all too aware that if I get stuck in a nasty spot that it will be up to me to get myself out of it. Some people choose to use a PLB, I am one of those that chooses not to. Just like free climbers choose to climb without a rope, I don't mind a little risk, and I do so knowing the risks and consequences of taking those risks.

I don't know what else can be said at this point, I really don't...

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Mon 21 Jan, 2013 8:29 pm

ryantmalone wrote: I am all too aware that if I get stuck in a nasty spot that it will be up to me to get myself out of it.. I don't know what else can be said at this point, I really don't...


Hope you don't have to deal with croc's

http://www.smh.com.au/national/four-spe ... 2d2rf.html

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Mon 21 Jan, 2013 8:53 pm

Nah it's all cool, I just find it interesting people perception of their own life. See you say "If you get into a nasty spot it's up to you to get yourself out of it", and if you can't? your happy to die in the wilderness knowing that a gadget that maybe you should have carried would have saved your life right then.... interesting concept.

Probably my biggest problem with those that don't carry them is more to do with rescue services having to spend more money to find those that choose not to carry them, when hours turns into days it costs, maybe they should charge the hikers the rescue cost if they don't carry them

But your choice, if I ever find ya in the bush, fallen and broken your legs don't worry I'll have my PLB on me ;) please see that as a humour comment, I don't wish to find anyone injured in the wilderness.

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Mon 21 Jan, 2013 9:23 pm

wildernesswanderer wrote:Probably my biggest problem with those that don't carry them is more to do with rescue services having to spend more money to find those that choose not to carry them, when hours turns into days it costs, maybe they should charge the hikers the rescue cost if they don't carry them


And maybe health insurers should reject the cover of certain life saving procedures after a car accident because a car didn't have airbags.

Sorry, but that idea is ludicrous....

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Mon 21 Jan, 2013 10:13 pm

Last hike we did we were 5 hours from our cars another 1hr driving to the closest town so 6hrs if we were all able to walk at normal pace, much longer with a serious injury, or 20 minutes from a helicopter. Now all the experience in the world won't get you out if your severely injured.

Guess its the choices we make....

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 4:16 am

fact is, anyone can get injured in the outdoors , or trapped by rising rivers...
fact is, if you're bushwalking you may have to rely on outside help to save you at some stage, it may take a LOT of help to rescue you, if you dont accept that youi're kidding yourself and if youre in the bush with that attitude, what else are you kidding yourself about?
the best outdoors people in the world can still get in situations where they need rescuing or even worse they die.... if you think you can always get yourself out of a scrape, thats just a concept and a romantic fantasy in your head.. as the famous quote says "no man is an island" no matter how much you want to become one....

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 4:53 am

heres a good one, this rescue took 50 SAR people to effect a medevac of a hill walker

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-21124118

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 8:10 am

This is just going round in circles now.

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 9:04 am

ryantmalone wrote:This is just going round in circles now.


Should carry a GPS as well as a PLB then :)

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 9:31 am

There are some walks that have high foot traffic aswell as a reasonable amount of phone reception. These trails are generally quite safe to be done without any special device. But more remote and isolated tracks are different.

On less popular trails it can be quite easy to be isolated. 3 hrs walk away from a car with a broken leg would would be an excruciating 12 hour walk back, let alone a drive.

There are a variety of devices that can be purchased for under $300, that's cheaper than many tents There are some devices that can be easily hired for less than $50 for a trip.

If people go to isolated places without a Sat device, and a search rescue to find you has been initiated by a friend/relative etc. Are they willing to repay the $1000's of dollars of tax payers money expended on them simply because they were too stingy to spend $250, yet they were more than happy to spend over $2000 in camping equipment that has a shorter life span?

It's a very tricky question to answer. Here in Victoria we require an annual Ambulance registration fee. If someone is not a member the Ambulance office is able to charge them for the costs incurred in the rescue. To date I don't think they have ever sued anyone who couldn't really afford to pay up. I figure the equivalent to paying an annual membership in wilderness scenarios is having a sat device.

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 9:39 am

then there the issue of snake bite...

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 9:51 am

wayno wrote:then there the issue of snake bite...


Snake bite is just another potential hazard that needs to be planned for. In remote areas a walker needs to plan for management of the bite through pressure bandaging and immobilisation. Under those circumstances communication becomes very important as it does for any other situation where the walker's ability to extract themselves is compromised.

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 9:56 am

one problem with becoming immobilisd, if you're immobilised at the start of a long trip in an area with few other or no people about. even if you've notified people of your trip intentions, without any communication device you stand to have to wait till at least a day after your'e due out before anyone even bothers to start searching for you...

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 10:06 am

I'm from the Kevorkian school of plb morals personally. The right to perish as one sees fit (in this case it's likely to be more painful.. and regretful).

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 10:15 am

well you could take a plb then you'd still have a choice if anything bad happened as to whether you stick to your morals or recant at the last minute and become a born again plb user....

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 10:32 am

Oh, I always carry something and perhaps some people are 'stupid' not to, to my mind it follows that they're going to be too 'stupid' for the bush... how to save rescuers time for those? Iv'e never had a serious injury though, then accident prone is probably not the same affliction as 'stupid'. It does baffle me the single mindedness for such topics (in advising others..on here).. how does one get like that..

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 10:43 am

some people are hung up on freedom of choice.. and the right to remain independant...

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 11:12 am

i think i'd be far more inclined to want to use a locator beacon in aus than in nz.
in nz we have minimal issues with people dying fom dehydration or starvation, , i'm unaware of it happening at all in nz. hypothermia or injury will usually get you first, heat stroke or exhaustion is relatively minimal compared to aus. we don't have any animals or plants likely to cause serious illness, injury or death.
while your mountains arent as profuse or as high, you've still got plenty of rugged terrain to come a cropper in, yo probably have an exponentially greater amount of vertical bluffs that you're likely to end up walking above around or up and down on a regular basis than nz does.
on the whole we're probably more likely to have cell phone coverage on a walk than in aus at least if you're on a ridge. or you can have a chance to get to an area with cell phone coverage but in aus you can be so far away from coverage its not even aconsideration in your communication...
at least in nz if you can keep moving you'r pretty much guaranteed of getting out of the bush before dehydration or hunger or exhaustion, heat stroke get the better of you compared to vast areas of australia.
even consiering how tiny nz is compared to aus, search and rescue can still be a nightmare here. i just wouldnt want to have to rely on a manual land search to try and find me in the middle of nowhere in aus at all given the greater magnitude of scale of the land areas involved... as it is its not totally unkown for people ever to be found on search and rescue missions in nz.
frankly i'd be a lot more fatalistic if something happened to me without some sort emergency communication device on a long walk in aus compared to in nz...

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 11:25 am

colinm wrote:
ryantmalone wrote:This is just going round in circles now.


Should carry a GPS as well as a PLB then :)


Good advice. :D

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 12:50 pm

Nuts wrote:Oh, I always carry something and perhaps some people are 'stupid' not to, to my mind it follows that they're going to be too 'stupid' for the bush... how to save rescuers time for those? Iv'e never had a serious injury though, then accident prone is probably not the same affliction as 'stupid'. It does baffle me the single mindedness for such topics (in advising others..on here).. how does one get like that..


Makes me wonder what we had to do back in the day when we had to fend for ourselves if something went wrong, hey? ;)

Back when I started, if we didn't have a compass, map, and a mirror, we were "stupid".

Man, the times have changed...

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 1:10 pm

ryantmalone wrote:Let me be clear here. I'm definitely not saying that people shouldn't carry a PLB, they are a great thing to carry for those who want to be as safe as possible, I'm just highlighting that it is a personal choice, and a choice that needs to be based on a combination of factors, including above all else, experience.

Yer I don't wear a seatbelt as I view myself as an experienced driver :-/ you have a duty of care to be as prepared as possible when you go to remote places. If you get into trouble and need rescued the costs to the rescue team are going to be several fold more if you don't carry a PLB.

Re: PLB's and/or EPIRB's

Tue 22 Jan, 2013 1:15 pm

doogs wrote:
ryantmalone wrote:Let me be clear here. I'm definitely not saying that people shouldn't carry a PLB, they are a great thing to carry for those who want to be as safe as possible, I'm just highlighting that it is a personal choice, and a choice that needs to be based on a combination of factors, including above all else, experience.

Yer I don't wear a seatbelt as I view myself as an experienced driver :-/ you have a duty of care to be as prepared as possible when you go to remote places. If you get into trouble and need rescued the costs to the rescue team are going to be several fold more if you don't carry a PLB.


How can I possibly respond to someone who clearly hasn't read a thing that I have written in this thread.

I think its time that this thread is closed before it gets ugly.
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