Hilleberg from Campsaver (& shipping policy)

[Rob A]

Ohh spare me.

"The Competition and Consumer Act (CCA) is an act of the Parliament of Australia and so its application is limited by section 51 of the Australian Constitution"

Good luck.

[Rob A]

...in some cases the markups are massive compared to what you can buy online overseas , theres no way that markup is justified despite their marketing overheads, it just looks like price scalping via a monopoly.

Well if you want to pay what they pay in Greece go live in greece. Good luck wiht hte job, social security, healthcare ... Too "X"y? Try Romania, Philipines, Bangladesh your money should go a bit further.

Last edited by Rob A on Thu 09 May, 2013 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Miyata610]

Ohh spare me.

"The Competition and Consumer Act (CCA) is an act of the Parliament of Australia and so its application is limited by section 51 of the Australian Constitution"

Good luck.

The point made was that it would apply if it was trading in Australia as an Australian legal entity. Keep up.

[wayno]

i was thinking about moving to cyprus actually... looks a financially safe enough place to put your money

[Rob A]

The point made was that it would apply if it was trading in Australia as an Australian legal entity. Keep up.

Who is "it"? Campsaver or Hilleberg? that in fiction for the point of what excercise might be trading in Australia as an ... ?

[Miyata610]

The point made was that it would apply if it was trading in Australia as an Australian legal entity. Keep up.

Who is "it"? Campsaver or Hilleberg? that in fiction for the point of what excercise might be trading in Australia as an ... ?

Sorry, I think I missed your point (or simply couldn't understand it), but to clarify......

If a wholesaler or manufacturer in Australia tried to control the price that a retailer could sell their products then that would indeed be illegal. This is hypothetical and doesn't relate to the topic being discussed.

[Rob A]

Dont say Im not helpful. Now you understand .

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[Strider]

Dont say Im not helpful. Now you understand

What's with all the screenshots? You need to learn how to quote

And you still don't understand sthughes post...

[Strider]

The point made was that it would apply if it was trading in Australia as an Australian legal entity. Keep up.

Who is "it"? Campsaver or Hilleberg? that in fiction for the point of what excercise might be trading in Australia as an ... ?

"It" is the law in Australia if the company was in Australia.

[Miyata610]

This is the bit I still can't translate....

that in fiction for the point of what excercise might be trading in Australia as an ... ?

Any takers?

[matagi]

This is the bit I still can't translate....

that in fiction for the point of what excercise might be trading in Australia as an ... ?

Any takers?

Is that phrase actually English?

I suspect a combination of typos and lack of punctuation have clouded whatever meaning was intended.

Is "fiction" supposed to be "fact" and it was helpfully corrected by some spellchecker?

[Nuts]

The only difference in Australia would be that Hilleberg wouldn't put it that way. They would simply choose not to supply a retailer. There seems some confusion, this seems to present a moral dilemma for some

Meanwhile, with the situation in hand, philm shows that it's still possible to get ones stuff.. even cheaper than what we perceive as cheap.

[Miyata610]

Companies have been successfully prosecuted in Australia for Resale Price Maintenance.

[Nuts]

Yes well, the law can be an *&%$#! that's true, but I very much doubt a company is bound to any or every particular retailer?

[Miyata610]

I think it's a good law. A quick search has found many prosecutions.

I can't see a problem with wanting to give retailers the freedom to set their own pricing.

As someone who has been both a manufacturer (dealing with wholesalers and resellers) and a reseller for other companies at various times, in numerous countries with differing laws.... I believe we have got it right here.

I wouldn't be afraid to take legal action if I thought I was being disadvantaged illegally. I've done that too, successfully, again both here and in other countries. The law works, use it.

[Nuts]

Sorry, it doesn't add up, I choose not to sell to retailers, can you show me a prosecution for doing so?

[Miyata610]

Sorry, it doesn't add up, I choose not to sell to retailers, can you show me a prosecution for doing so?

Probably. Might need to call my solicitor to do a search though. Lol.

[Strider]

This is the bit I still can't translate....

that in fiction for the point of what excercise might be trading in Australia as an ... ?

Any takers?

Wow. Someone buy this man a dictionary!

[Rob A]

Who is it in that fiction, (that story) you describe, that is contravening anything.

"if it was trading in Australia as an Australian legal entity" It, your words. Given the topic the only logical is either Hillberg or Campspaver. CCA is limited by 51. Its your argument you support it.

Strider, comprehension, one day.

[Strider]

"if it was trading in Australia as an Australian legal entity" It, your words. Given the topic the only logical is either Hillberg or Campspaver.

If you don't get this now, you never will.

[Ent]

Price maintenance is illegal in Australia if the product is sold in Australia. Products brought oversea are not affected by Australian consumer law as the sale transaction did not happen in Australia, but might run foul of other laws when they arrive such as product safety standards.

This means say Cascade Designs can put whatever condition they like on their USA sellers providing it mets USA law. I would suggest that the Australian distributors would be in an interesting position if they were proven to be "controlling" this arrangement.

Despite attempts by industry lobby groups parallel importing is allowed. So called grey marketing.

The ACCC is looking at why pricing is higher in Australia which suggests that they are sharpening their knives.

Yes a company has the power to chose resellers but not the price that their reseller sell at. More than a few that have played cute have wound up with company and personal fines.

It is insane to me that business demanding free trade then turns around and puts in restraint of trade provisions. Such behavior suggests that they are not interest in efficient markets so are behaving like a centralized controlled market and see eastern block economies for how great that worked.

Simple solution is buy other products. Ironically the high price generated by such trade restraints means consumers are, so Cascade Designs amongst others is losing market share.

I can only feel sorry for Campsaver as their computer order system maintenance costs must be huge working out what they can ship and at what price. Would not be surprised if they are not at this very minute looking for brands that allow them the freedom to do business how they see fit. Actually be good for us as we would wind up with better price/performance items. As history shows then brands with old inefficient practices will eventually shrivel and die.

Cheers

[Nuts]

I don't know, maybe its comes from counting their money rather than operating one

Stepping back, forgetting obscure trade law, lets think realistically, 'right and wrong'. Lets say I decided to take on a Hilleberg dealership here in Australia. I agree to host their gear as best I see for consumers. As a consumer, the best situation would be to have an actual store, go and climb into their tents, speak to someone who has spent time researching their product and is willing to act as an agent for warranty and returns (for whatever fickle reason a consumer chooses).

Definitely as that retailer, perhaps being truthful as a consumer.. there is obviously going to be a cost, as it follows a price difference between me and whatever reseller.. website, ebay, forum hack.. whatever- in another country able to offer their tents cheaper.

As the local retailer(/distributor) it seems 'right' to expect some sort of security from the manufacturer.. that seems 'right'..

I recall the spirit of free trade agreement at the time.. let's not kid ourselves.. it was equally greedy. It wasn't to prevent this situation, it was primarily to get some security for our local industry exporting to the states yes?

In reality, as we have seen, there is no stopping consumers. If a few $ can be saved we are all over it.. even at the expense of being saved from ourselves. Moaning equally as loud when things go wrong and there is nowhere to try out a tent, no local source for grievance ... eventually, no local retail industry? It's already the case with manufacturing, no protection for local industry in the face of cheap chinese copies..( to save a further $ do we really want China Hilleberg? ) I mean, what is the final outcome.. 'We' sit around in sweat shops sewing gear for the Chinese market?

Muddled thinking imo, the law in this case is being ridden as an *&%$#!..

[sthughes]

I actually think it's a bit the opposite. Thanks to the Australian laws an Australian online business could sell Hilleberg tents to the US cheaper than US retailers if they wished. That's because it would be illegal for Hilleberg to impose a fixed price on an Australian retailer and hence the Aussie could sell with lower profit margins.

As for actual brick'n'mortar stores the issues are similar in all countries. You may be concerned the corner store can't compete because of cheap overseas imports that don't have store front and service costs, but equally they are hard pressed to match the guy in Western Sydney with a cheap warehouse and website. GST is one of the real issues in competing with imports.

[Nuts]

'lower profit margins'

[Strider]

GST is one of the real issues in competing with imports.

Interesting comment considering our GST rate is one of the lowest in the world.

[sthughes]

GST is one of the real issues in competing with imports.

Interesting comment considering our GST rate is one of the lowest in the world.

But you can buy from the US/UK and other places without paying GST/VAT etc. I imagine retailers in all countries that impose GST/VAT etc struggle competing with overseas tax-free imports??

[Nuts]

I doubt even GST breaks would cut it. Try 40-50%. The real issue is choice. By default we are choosing to support workers on minimal wage and in dubious conditions.. The situation will only change country (ie India next) (which is why introducing into the debate 'ethics and conscience' was so laughable). Gear might have been much dearer years ago but really... who needs a stable of tents.. those that could afford them had them.. just less of us : )

We have simply been given the opportunity to either support local economy or not.. what has been the benefit for our side of the free trade deal? Thriving industry (at any level other than digging stuff up)???? things for now are cheaper but meanwhile it seems obvious, not without a cost. If we end up in a banna republic at least we shouldn't have to order them from ebay

[wayno]

http://news.hjnews.com/allaccess/articl ... 963f4.html

with a 30,000 sq ft warehouse, you'd think campsaver could make some profit by scale of volume

[Ent]

I don't know, maybe its comes from counting their money rather than operating one

Stepping back, forgetting obscure trade law, lets think realistically, 'right and wrong'. Lets say I decided to take on a Hilleberg dealership here in Australia. I agree to host their gear as best I see for consumers. As a consumer, the best situation would be to have an actual store, go and climb into their tents, speak to someone who has spent time researching their product and is willing to act as an agent for warranty and returns (for whatever fickle reason a consumer chooses).

And there is the difference in your position and the reality of the circumstances No shop in Tasmania stocks Hilleberg so many buyers have brought sight unseen based on trust. While some consumers use the local shops as display areas and then buy overseas I would think most do not as the online websites are generally very good with detailed specifications and no pushy counter jumpers. If I see something local I buy it generally as probably more an impulse buyer. Also I appreciate good advice plus service that some sales assistants deliver locally.

Also as mentioned many times it is near impossible for local shops to stock products in my size range. Even the local distributors do not so I as a consumer do not get service that I get from online shops. I do not expect the local shops and distributors to stock 6' 6" sleeping bags and size 49 boots with long fittings in clothes but I sure as hell get annoyed when cozy price maintenance agreements stop me sourcing my size online. Your approach would see me barefoot and naked, not I sight I would wish upon my fellow walkers

We had tariffs and quotas on cars and the result was expensive fuel hungry cars with 12 month 12,000 mile (what ever came first) warranties because that is what the car companies' CEO thought as best I see for consumers. Looking at the sales figures nowadays I would say that they were wrong. Ford and Holden had to be dragged kicking and screaming to increase their warranty periods. Without free trade it is highly likely they would not have.

Ok lets look a current issue I face. I like Black Diamond poles but the end tips after many long kilometres failed. No issue, go online and include a spare set on the next Campsaver order. Just because I am curious I signed up to pay twice the price locally for a set of tips. What happened. Campsaver could not ship due to Black Diamond's agreement with the local distributors. Now actually I ordered the local tips first and even though a person received their order of non banned products from the USA I have not seen sight nor heard a sound from the local shop. This is not as best I see for consumers

All I am asking is companies seek to delivery the best quality at the lowest price and building in inefficiencies in their supply train to the customer is not going to do this.

Cheers

[Nuts]

Your right! No offense- I wouldn't like to see you naked!!!!

Consumers of all these things use discretionary income.. a luxury we still currently enjoy. It may seem good for consumers, my point was that it doesn't seem to be doing much good for a sustainable economy... no matter the cherry picked examples..

PS.. Hilleberg (ironically) seems a very good proposition for local stores (I imagine there isn't a huge retail markup perhaps). A good proposition that is until someone overseas goes and discounts them..