Optimum tent design – facts versus fallacies and preferences

[Spartan]

Hi, Dog.

How do you find the Snowgum version of the Caddis?? I do think it is one of the better"Bang for buck" tents on the market.

Sure. My first 4 season tent was a Macpac 'Olympus'; great tent, got stolen when I left it pitched and went for a walk in the Snowy Mountains NP back in 1993. Live and learn. I bought a Snowgum 'Caddis' in 1997, which I used extensively in Tassie, the Snowy Mountain NP, SE Queensland and FNQ over the next 14 years. It was a very, very good tent. Unfortunately, I had to put it down not too long ago due to the groundsheet delaminating; shortly thereafter I happend to wander into a Snowgum store and saw the latest iteration of the 'Caddis' on special (at $250.00). So I bought one. I went home and put the thing up in the backyard, and it was then that I noticed a few obvious design changes (e.g. no more pole sleeves on the fly, single fore and aft vents replaced by double off-set vents, newer colour-coded poles, the tent sack doubles as a gear loft, new peg design, etc). I studiously went over the entire thing, inch-by-inch, and was generally satisfied with the level of workmanship. The one change I'm not completely convinced about is the ditching of the pole sleeves on the fly, but given I always pitch my tents using all the available guys, that shouldn't be too much of a 'biggie'.

My partner and I have subsequently spent a few long weekends at Baw Baw, Walhalla, and Falls Creek in this tent. There has been lots of wind and some rain, low nighttime temperatures, but absolutely no problems with, or lingering doubts about, the capability of this tent. We plan on doing some snow camping this June at either Falls Creek or Hotham, so I suppose that will be the final, litmus test.

Vis the 'bang-for-buck', in my estimation $250 is little 'buck' for a tent with lots of 'bang'.

All the best.

[Wingnut]

I haven't tried all that many tents on the market so take this with a pinch of salt but have to say the "four season" tent really doesn't exist...to me they seem to suit spring, autumn & winter. The exception being summer...when I was searching for a single person tent that could realistically cover all four seasons it seemed impossible. I wanted a tent that could also cope with extreme heat from the sun, be breathable but still keep out the dust & sand during high winds. Hilleberg and 'others' claim to be four season by coping with high winds, rain, snow etc but I think this is a fallacy...they can cover one end of the weather extreme but not the other, so I say 'four season' is full of crap!

Good luck with the tent search.

Rant over...

[stepbystep]

I haven't tried all that many tents on the market so take this with a pinch of salt but have to say the "four season" tent really doesn't exist...to me they seem to suit spring, autumn & winter. The exception being summer...when I was searching for a single person tent that could realistically cover all four seasons it seemed impossible. I wanted a tent that could also cope with extreme heat from the sun, be breathable but still keep out the dust & sand during high winds. Hilleberg and 'others' claim to be four season by coping with high winds, rain, snow etc but I think this is a fallacy...they can cover one end of the weather extreme but not the other, so I say 'four season' is full of crap!

Good luck with the tent search.

Rant over...

Excellent point!

[Moondog55]

Well I suppose a 4 season tent can be used in summer and you would be uncomfortable but survive, could you say the same thing about using a summer tent in winter above the snowline?
I agree the terminology is very inexact but most of us do understand what is meant, like using the term 5 season tent to describe something only suitable for high Altitude in winter. Then again I use my Megamid all year around and finds it does very well and it's heavier in summer because I need to add in a mossie net

[Strider]

Well I suppose a 4 season tent can be used in summer and you would be uncomfortable but survive

Or would you? I certainly wouldn't want to be in my Scarp in 50C heat!

[Moondog55]

OK point taken. But my old Plateau would do it, just leave the doors open for ventilation and use a reflective fly over the top

[Strider]

Sorry I should clarify that. I would be more than happy I think with mesh inner and doors/vents all open. But definitely not sealed up!

[Happy Pirate]

I'd really like to hear from someone who has tried both approaches under adverse conditions. How much drier / better / convenient is integral pitch?

My Mountain Hardware is an intergral pitch and seriously I've never had so much trouble putting up a tent in a hurry. I usually end up having to split the three components and laying them and pitching them out separately.
Seriously the integration ethic of this thing was designed by a committee more disfunctional than the VHS-Betamax integration committee.

My Macpacs and Wilderness Equipments have been better but any tent you are familiar with should pitch quickly and without fuss. You'll get more wet searching for the best site.

[Moondog55]

I've had a second look at the "Caddis" it seems that all the newer Caddis tents are using the features that originally were only available on the XPD model, [down to the ground fly sheet and enclosed vestibules at both ends] but it looks to be a little smaller. Still for $250- it would be hard to beat and adding valances would not be too difficult, how does the fly attach to the pole system in your new model?

[wayno]

what a about exped tents. i see they have the cords on the ground to hold the anchor points length http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage_int.nsf

[Spartan]

G'day, Dog.

I've had a second look at the "Caddis" it seems that all the newer Caddis tents are using the features that originally were only available on the XPD model, [down to the ground fly sheet and enclosed vestibules at both ends] but it looks to be a little smaller. Still for $250- it would be hard to beat and adding valances would not be too difficult, how does the fly attach to the pole system in your new model?

'Yep', the price certainly is right! If the 'MkII' is smaller than the original, then it won't be by very much (as I haven't noticed any appreciable difference). Hmmm, adding valances? I like the 'cut of your jib', young man. I might just give 'Remote Repairs' a call for a quote (they did a good job repairing my original 'Caddis' a couple of times over the years). Finally, to answer your question the fly attaches to the pole via standard clips. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I prefer pole sleeves; however, the clip system seems to work well enough in rough weather.

All the best.

[north-north-west]

Well I suppose a 4 season tent can be used in summer and you would be uncomfortable but survive

Or would you? I certainly wouldn't want to be in my Scarp in 50C heat!

Which is so common in Tasmanian summers . . . .

[Strider]

Well I suppose a 4 season tent can be used in summer and you would be uncomfortable but survive

Or would you? I certainly wouldn't want to be in my Scarp in 50C heat!

Which is so common in Tasmanian summers . . . .

Who said anything about Tasmania?

[Onestepmore]

Why do people that buy a tent suited for cold rainy and snowy conditions expect it to also perform well in hot, steamy and humid ones? Do you buy one set of street clothes and expect it to be comfortable in the middle of a 35 degree day as well as below zero deg temps in winter?

Jack of all trades and master of none?
Compromise will always lead to dissatisfaction and complaint
I'd rather get something suited for the conditions it was designed to be used for, and just accept that I may need to purchase something additional for another completely different set of conditions.

[north-north-west]

Or would you? I certainly wouldn't want to be in my Scarp in 50C heat!

Which is so common in Tasmanian summers . . . .

Who said anything about Tasmania?

It's not that common over a fair bit of the mainland, either.

[Strider]

It's not that common over a fair bit of the mainland, either.

I didn't claim that, either. It was an extreme example.

[Wingnut]

Why do people that buy a tent suited for cold rainy and snowy conditions expect it to also perform well in hot, steamy and humid ones? Do you buy one set of street clothes and expect it to be comfortable in the middle of a 35 degree day as well as below zero deg temps in winter?

It's the tent manufactures who give their tents the "four season" rating...

Hmm...I don't recall my Patagonia down jacket being recommended for summer?

[mjdalessa]

Speaking of broken tent poles- I had a very interesting experience with my Helsport. The pole is alloy. They call it the "scandium super pole". I got the tent in december and was very happy with the quality of workmanship and heavy duty four season nature at a relatively low weight.

Anyway, I took the tent on the Pelion Circuit in poor rainy conditions and was very happy with it and on a trip to Mt. Bobs and the Boomerang. I camped on top of Bobs and it withstood decently strong winds well. Then in January the pole snapped in hot still conditions at Judds Charm. There had been no wind overnight. We climbed Lots Wife and relaxed around camp with the tents pitched in 30+ degree heat. Suddenly at about 1pm the pole snapped for no apparent reason. Heat stressing the metal is the only thing I could think of but that just seems ridiculous from such a quality tent.

I contacted Helsport about the problem and they replied very fast requesting pictures. I sent them back within 24hrs and got no reply. I gave them two weeks before calling and she promised to send a pole. 1.5 months on and no pole. This level of service is very disappointing and contradictory when you consider I got amazingly quick and informative service when I was looking at buying one of their products

[Franco]

with the tents pitched in 30+ degree heat

just guessing here, but say that your tent was something like the Rigstind II
that uses a type of silnylon for the fly, the possible cause of the pole braking could be that the fabric shrank in the sun enough to cause the pole to fail.

[Strider]

with the tents pitched in 30+ degree heat

just guessing here, but say that your tent was something like the Rigstind II
that uses a type of silnylon for the fly, the possible cause of the pole braking could be that the fabric shrank in the sun enough to cause the pole to fail.

Is it possible this might happen with the Scarp?

[mjdalessa]

Its the Ringstind 1. I noticed the fabric was much tighter than it should be. I can't really think why this would cause pole failure though?

[Moondog55]

Why do people that buy a tent suited for cold rainy and snowy conditions expect it to also perform well in hot, steamy and humid ones? Do you buy one set of street clothes and expect it to be comfortable in the middle of a 35 degree day as well as below zero deg temps in winter?

Jack of all trades and master of none?
Compromise will always lead to dissatisfaction and complaint
I'd rather get something suited for the conditions it was designed to be used for, and just accept that I may need to purchase something additional for another completely different set of conditions.

Possibly because a tent is a "Major purchase" and not every-one can afford more than 1; so they buy a tent for what they would consider the worst conditions that could be encountered.
I only own about 5 tents and none of them are summer tents, that telly you something about my type of walking, in summer I just use a fly although mozzie protection should be higher in my needs

[Franco]

mjdalessa,
I broke the pole on a pre- production Rainbow trying to dismantle the tent because of fly shrinkage .(very hot and dry day...)
The production version came out with a ladder lock so that the user can determine the right amount of tension needed.
However one day I had the same Rainbow (already modified by me...) set up in 20c or so degree after a high-humidity night (by a river) , went for a walk and came back with the temp up to almost 40c.
Found one of the pegs a few meters away...the pole and fly were OK.

Strider,
Can it happen with the Scarp ?
Theoretically yes if you have it really taut when the fly is cold and or wet and then you leave it like that in full sun.
However I believe that the Easton poles suffer less than the Scandium in this respect.
This last bit comes from an exchange I had years ago with a tent designer that used both types..(not Tarptent)
Note also that the radius of the Scarp 1 pole is about 12cm wider(23cm wider base, pole tip to pole tip) , the tighter the radious the more stress the pole (if not pre-bent) is under ,the weaker it becomes.

[mjdalessa]

What is carbon like for durability (there is a carbon option for the Ringstind)? Do any companies make poles to your specifications?

[Franco]

What is carbon like for durability (there is a carbon option for the Ringstind)?
to put it another way, I would not use CF poles on tents that require the poles to be heavily bent.
So not with hoop type shelters with a tight radius.CF does not flex very well.
Tarptent now offers Easton CF poles but only for shelters (Rainbow/DR) that have a very wide radius so the pole itself is not under a lot of stress.

Do any companies make poles to your specifications?
Not that I know of. You get what Easton, DAC and Yunan make.

[wayno]

carbon is on the brittle side, when it fails it fails catastrophically.

[Strider]

Do any companies make poles to your specifications?
Not that I know of. You get what Easton, DAC and Yunan make.

However, these can of course but trimmed to the desired length.

[Ent]

After much head scratching and soul searching decided that a Hilleberg Soulo is the go for me. Rather amazed at the number of problems people have had with pole breakages so maybe the external sleeves are the go. Given that I use my tent in Tassie generally in the colder months a full seal-able interior was the go along with a fitted groundsheet. But the major factor for me was Hillberg reliability and ability to get the simple things right such as the double ended zips.

The more I walk and use gear the more I am returning to tried and trusted brands and designs. If a product like a Trangia can hang around for what seems an eternity then maybe it has something going for it. Yeap, brought a ULHA 27 with gas conversion when I brought the tent from Campsaver. Same with Hilleberg tents. I will not argue that lighter brands exist for tents but like the MSR Nook they can be a hassle to put up in foul weather. There is a lot to be said for longevity of design and materials.

While I respect the leading edge design and use of materials it has been my personal experience that leading edge can mean bleeding edge and I am rather past getting home and sorting out the failed gear for repair or replacement.

Cheers

[Franco]

I thought that the Akto was already too small for you (?) the Soulo has less usable length ..

[Giddy_up]

I have an Exped Venus II Extreme and it has been faultless. I have not done any really cold hikes with the tent (but others here have), but I sure have done some wet, humid and hot hikes with it and have had very little to no condensation issues even though its rated as a 4 season tent and should suffer to some extent. I wish they would make a 1 person based on this layout as it would be bullet proof as far as my expectations go but I also acknowledge that it's not every ones cup of tea.

The attached pictures show this tent just this weekend gone in some pretty damp conditions. There was no moisture on the inner and I packed it up inner first which was dry and went inside my pack and strapped the soggy fly outside my pack. I later found out that we had received 110mm of rain that night where I had camped. The temp range was 19 down to 11 with extreme humidity. There was some strong wind through the night but the morning was still and misty.
G_U

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