Which kayak?

[climberman]

Silly ol me thinking it was a bushwalking/equipment thread I have actually carried my sea ski (28kgs of it) plus all my gear out from a remote beach one time because it was to rough to paddle out..... never again.

dude. dunno about the 'I' !!

I think that trip made both of us permanent packraft converts !

[climberman]

NW - most states have a sea kayaking club, who are usually happy to accomodate the new paddler trying out a range of kayaks as fit and feel are important. They typically have an intro weekend or skills days also. Might be worth looking into.

[andrewa]

NNW, bad luck about the lack of "beloved", however, you'll note my genderless comment. Without one, I can't see why you have storage issues........

The Prijon kayak looks attractive. I agree with Nuts about the rudder, but one of my very (like, very, very) dedicated sea-kayaking mates would rather have a boat without a rudder..............it's a control thing, I think!

It's the right sort of length, but, if it's 23kg, it's quite heavy. My fiberglass kayak is 25kg, and just enough weight to be irritating to carry. A home made cedar strip kayak might be 20kg, but would take some time to make (it comes down to your hourly rate!).

Have a good look on ebay. One will come up.

A (with a walk in robe filled with someone else's clothes and shoes, and a house full of daughters, so kayak/packraft/everything else gets stored in shed...)

[Nuts]

Good length for a sea kayak but a shorter person could probably give up a bit of length? Something with a bit more of a curved keel would be easier to turn (without using a rudder) I had a 4.1m mould that made nice estury/touring 2 hatch kayaks. It would make a completed boat/rudder/decklines, braced seat of abt 18kg. I took one of these on multi day/weeks trips in pretty rough seas (around Maria/Frey penns, through the whitsundays) Sacrifice a tad of speed for a shorter, wider, more relaxing to paddle, easier to handle boat..

Do you have a bed setup in the shed Andrew

[andrewa]

NNW, if you've got space in your robe...........and not in any shoe boxes............ this one looks a goodie.....

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BRAND-NEW-KA ... 1e6937a0f8

Would have to drive to Maffra though..............maybe consider your "hourly rate" in the whole scheme of things (as I have no idea where "The Hovell" is).

Andrew A (are you really sure a packraft isn't going to be a better option.............?!)

[Bill P]

Hi NNW,

If you don't need it tomorrow, please consider building a Tom Yost folder. He has designs which I think would suit your initial requirements- I'm currently building his Sea Otter, aiming for sub 12kg . Seems 1/2 way bw a packraft & a hardshell. Cost can be quite low, time seems to be the main issue . good luck Bill P

Last edited by Bill P on Tue 13 Dec, 2011 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[SteveJ]

Silly ol me thinking it was a bushwalking/equipment thread I have actually carried my sea ski (28kgs of it) plus all my gear out from a remote beach one time because it was to rough to paddle out..... never again.

dude. dunno about the 'I' !!

I think that trip made both of us permanent packraft converts !

I thought you asked me to never metion that trip again, hence I excluded you from the story

I like my ski but I love my packraft.

[climberman]

[north-north-west]

Hi NNW,

If you don't need it tomorrow, please consider building a Tom Yost folder. He has designs which I think would suit your initial requirements- I'm currently building his Sea Otter, aiming for sub 12kg . Seems 1/2 way bw a packraft & a hardshell. Cost can be quite low, time seems to be the main issue . good luck Bill P

I don't need it tomorrow, but I would like to have it usable before I die, and if I try building one myself, that would be problematical. I really just don't have the time.

[phan_TOM]

phan_TOM:Thanks for all the info. You've given me a lot to think about. I hadn't thought about the sizing issue. Should have as I've been through Alpacka's website and they specify certain craft for certain height ranges. I do like the look of that beastie of yours (though it would look better in red).

Honestly, the best thing to do would be to go and try a few (as many as you can) kayaks out. Go to a demo day or a paddling club and see what feels right, you may even meet someone who wants to sell you one second hand... Its one of the most rewarding 'toys' I've owned & I'm pretty sure they do do it in red...

Silly ol me thinking it was a bushwalking/equipment thread I have actually carried my sea ski (28kgs of it) plus all my gear out from a remote beach one time because it was to rough to paddle out..... never again.

I had to chuckle at this Steve, one of my worst nightmares... Pulling in somewhere only to discover the weather and sea turn nasty and not being able to launch again!! How far did you have to go to get out?

I agree with Nuts about the rudder, but one of my very (like, very, very) dedicated sea-kayaking mates would rather have a boat without a rudder..............it's a control thing, I think!

Definitely a personal preference too, its one of those debates that has ever raged in the kayak community (like boots vs shoes?) and dependant on the kayak design. Mine is towards the shorter end in regard to sea kayaks and is more maneuvrable, that is, more difficult to keep in a straight line with the rudder up... It can be done but with the rudder down its easier to focus on a good forward stroke and making good ground, I'd hate for the rudder to break while out in rough conditions... I recently padled a Tahe kayak that had a skeg and rudder and even with both up its tracking ability was amazing compared to my kayak, there was at least 20kmh of steady southerly blowing (then gusts) and even at 45°with and against the wind it was fully composed and tracking dead straight with only slight correction with paddle strokes. It turned just as easily with a quick lean and turning stroke. I was shocked and it was one of those moments where if I had the chance (and money) to decide again on what kayak to buy I would have gone it instead of the one that I did choose.

As to paddling speed, I reckon I'd paddle my 5.5m sea-kayak (longer boats tend to go faster) at 10-12km/h in good conditions (+/- tide and wind). I haven't measured it, but I probably would be pushing 3-5km/h in my packraft on flat water...

Theres lots of good discussion out there regarding kayak design and hull speed & I believe the width of the kayak has more to do with hull speed than length even though both play a part, up to a certain point though increased length will start to slow you down, on flat water, simply for the fact that there is more surface area, and friction, with the water (it gets very techinical if you want to delve into the physics of it, I don't understand much of the science behind it). Problem is the narrower the 'yak the more tippy they become so its a trade off between stability and out and out speed (usually). Theres a thread running over on the sea kayak forum regarding kayak speed, the physics of hull speed and the effort required to maximise the kayaks speed through the water, there seems to be a consensus that virtually all kayaks have a very similar cruising speed, to within a few kmh of each other, maybe 5-8kmh, the rest is down to athletic ability and a good efficient forward stroke (and then environmental factors such as tides, wind & swell). I'm guessing that the 10-12kmh that you mention is during a sprint,if you have look at the results from 10k sea kayak races you'll see that these guys average between 9-11kmh and the guy that broke the English channel crossing, an olympian in the fastest kayak money can buy, managed about 12kmh over 3 hours, a massive feat. The truth is that anything over about 9kmh is very fast for a sea kayak and just as hard to maintain over any distance. Theres a saying that it takes 10% effort to achieve 90% of a kayaks hull speed and 90% effort to get that last 10% of a kayaks hull speed...

[SteveJ]

Silly ol me thinking it was a bushwalking/equipment thread I have actually carried my sea ski (28kgs of it) plus all my gear out from a remote beach one time because it was to rough to paddle out..... never again.

I had to chuckle at this Steve, one of my worst nightmares... Pulling in somewhere only to discover the weather and sea turn nasty and not being able to launch again!! How far did you have to go to get out?

I did not think it too funny at the time It was only 5 kms out but climbing up to 100 m-asl.

A mate of mine has spent a week stuck on a beach unable to launch his sea kayak due to a heavy 4m swell...

[north-north-west]

A mate of mine has spent a week stuck on a beach unable to launch his sea kayak due to a heavy 4m swell...

Shhhhhh. Don't let my boss hear you - that's my plan, you see.

[sailfish]

In the early 70s, I did slalom kayaking at high school and was in the top half dozen or so at the NSW CHS championships at Nymboida and was a member of Illawarra canoe club along with Gary Nelson and Peter Bodycote who were on the Australian team for the worlds etc. In those days, we built our own boats for $40 or so and they weighed about 28 lb (13 kg) in fibreglass or 12 lb (5.5 kg) or less in Kevlar if memory serves. So please excuse me for thinking the current commercial crop of boats weighting 30 to 40 KG and costing well over a grand are crap. Yeah I know polyethylene is tough but it’s a disaster in terms of weight and safety which takes them a very long way from the traditional mobility concept of kayaks and canoes. They have their place I guess but not in a truly human powered mobility sense. You need good car access to use these things effectively. So I don’t see these boats as practical for engaging with hiking activity. There are some inflatable kayaks that seem a better option for exploring by foot and water.

However I think the requirements of hiking, inland waterways and coastal paddling are just too wide to fill in a single boat. If you’re looking at coastal with diving equipment, I would suggest a SOT would be most convenient for accessing your gear. If you really want a sit in boat, it would be convenient to use an aft deck rack to transfer gear from below deck storage while gearing up. In either case, I would carry a float pole to use as an outrigger so you have a stable platform to gear up and dive from.

If you are looking for any range, a fast easily gliding boat is a must. Kayaks are a displacement hull and these have a finite speed limit (hull speed) largely determined by water line length. Once you have reached hull speed, more power will not give you any more speed, just wear you out. So if you want to go any distance you need a long hull.
The boat will glide along more easily if, the water line is narrow, the keel is a straight line, the bow and stern sections are deep V with straight sides, midship section is parabolic (tightest curve at keel, straighter at water line). A fine bow entry (angle) will go through waves with less drag. In the ocean, currents of 3-4 kts are not uncommon and a 14 foot kayak will do about 5.6 kts tops.

If you want a manoeuvrable boat for example stream or white water play, this requires a short hull, a sharply curved up keel line, low deck (minimum side area near the ends) round, full sections, blunt entry angles (wide at the ends).

Stability is largely up to the paddlers skill you need to learn this. Obviously wider hulls with full sections are more stable and narrow, deep V or parabolic not so. However there are different ways to look at stability. A V hull might feel unstable when level but as the boat tips more, the flat of the V quickly gives buoyancy further out highly resisting capsize (low initial but high latent stability). A full section hull may feel quite stable when level but resistance to capsize falls away as it tips (high initial but low latent stability). The more stable a hull is, the harder it is to right (rolling becomes more difficult).

Deep V section hulls go through waves more easily and comfortably and are less prove to wind drift. For these reasons, it is common on a storm designed hull. Flat section hulls roll a lot more, slam waves and are easily blown across the water by the wind but have low draft to glide over shallows.

Kayaks are a compromise where the mix is determined by intended use. So hopefully you can now see that ocean and stream usages are complete opposites in the design spectrum. Something in between will not do either very well. Your probably better off getting a boat just for the most common usage and perhaps fill the other criteria later.

Regards,
Ken

[sailfish]

[quote="phan_TOM"]
Theres lots of good discussion out there regarding kayak design and hull speed & I believe the width of the kayak has more to do with hull speed than length even though both play a part, up to a certain point though increased length will start to slow you down, on flat water, simply for the fact that there is more surface area, and friction, with the water (it gets very techinical if you want to delve into the physics of it, I don't understand much of the science behind it). [quote]

For displacement hulls, wave drag is the limiting factor determining hull speed.

Hull speed in knots = p * (LWL)^0.5

P is usually taken as 1.32 but can vary depending on the finness of the hull.
LWL= Length water line in feet

P=1.32 is based on the ssumption that wave length is = LWL but can be a little higher for fine hulls, 1.5 or so.
P is more to do with volume displaced into the bow wave / LWL ratio than just beam to length.
The volume displaced into the bow wave is not the static displacement of the hull but is to do with the maxim sectional area of the hull. For this reason a straight keel line and minium beam WL where the average beam WL to average draft of about 2:1 will pretty much optimise P.

In any case, the formulae clearly shows that LWL is the major determining factor for hull speed.

Skin friction is not a factor for hull speed but is a factor in the drag a hull will produce at any given speed and therefore the power required to drive that hull. Traditional single sea kayaks have been made up to about 6 metres so I take this to be close to the optimum length for speed and distance for a single fit paddler.

Regards,
Ken

[igor]

We have a Hobie Mirage Drive kayak for more than 2 years by now and are extremely pleased with it. It's a double kayak. The main advantage of the Miradge drive kayaks is that we can pedal as well as paddle. During our kayaking trips my wife and I are routinely covering 35-40 km during 4-6 hrs without being too tired. Pedaling with the effort similar to lazily bike ride gives us speed of around 7 km/h. Our record daily trip so far was 72 km. But the thing is we can keep this speed for hours on a windy wavy sea. They are incredibly stable. Our kayak is the plastic one, but they have an inflatable version of it which is just fractionally slower but heaps more stable. Have a look at the local shop - they all allow to try the kayak before buying it.

[Liamy77]

2.8 kg is 2.8 kg more than I really want to add to my pack, much as I love the idea of just paddling down the new river Lagoon rather than having to wade it.

Thats one of the best parts of the walk!! The views of PB from the water are stunning!! You just need a nice warm day, thats the key.

Well that rules out 346 days of the year!!! Still you go numb pretty quickly I'm sure....dive booties would be a good compromise.

you want some sealskins!

[north-north-west]

2.8 kg is 2.8 kg more than I really want to add to my pack, much as I love the idea of just paddling down the new river Lagoon rather than having to wade it.

Thats one of the best parts of the walk!! The views of PB from the water are stunning!! You just need a nice warm day, thats the key.

With all due respect mate, it isn't even in the top ten:

1) Finally getting out of the tent and away from Leaning Tea Tree *&%$#! Saddle, after two and a half days.
2) Getting back to the camp and into the tent at Pigsty after backtracking past Hill 3 to get out to The Hippo.
3) Cavern Camp's resident tiger snake deciding - despite being in a highly belligerent mood - to let me quietly back off after accidently stumbling on it.
4) Those three wedgies who were circling me for ten minutes up on La Perouse deciding that I was, after all, just a little bit too large and vigorous to feature on the dinner menu.
5) Getting from PB down to Cavern Camp without any mishap more serious than a couple of slips on the wet mud.
6) Getting from Cavern Camp to Prion without tripping over or slipping on anything while wading the Lagoon.
7) Finally getting through the mud on the South Cape Range. Every other major track in Tassie has improved over the past 30 years, but I swear that bit is worse.
Finally getting to the other end of Moonlight Flats. Can't they give the place a more suitable name, like 'Godawful Hellhole of Mud, Scrub and Blechiness'?
9) Getting across Milford Creek without nearly drowning in it, unlike my previous crossing . . .
10) Adding two more 'pointed' peaks to the list of those I've done and you haven't. I think the total is now 13 . . .