volleys

[corvus]

G'day geoffmallo,
You are obviously well into UL walking gear and I am trying to lighten my load as I am over 60 ,can you post a comprehensive break down of your around 7kg load inc food for a three day walk please and is it summer or winter.
Every time I ask this question the reply seems to be missing some essential gear like walking poles instead of tent poles ,tarps instead of tents no stove /fuel because no cooking is required and such like .
I have had some helpful suggestions which has saved me some grams and I don't mind spending a Quid or two but don't want to do the UL pack thing or go lighter than my 950g sleeping bag, or use garbage bags as pack liners and my Gortex coat will always be in my pack or on my back
corvus

[under10kg]

Hi corvus,

You state you want to reduce your pack weight to 7 kg and in the same sentence you do not want to give up some of your usual gear. That just does not compute! We all know that using light gear can have its compromises as regards durability, and some comfort etc. I actually feel it is safer to go light weight if you know what you are doing as you do not get so exhausted in critical conditions with the heavy pack and boots.

You also have been pretty critical of my light weight gear and I am not even super light weight. You seem to think I need help even though I have tested my gear in some pretty difficult conditions.

Its nice to know you care though!

I know it might be a bit strange to carry poles and use them as tent poles....

Ever had a tunnel tent pole break? I have on top of Kosi and it was not much fun. At least I can find a straight pole to use in my tent as a substitute but try that with a tunnel tent curved pole set up.

I do plan to post a compete gear list for walking in NSW at under 3kg and Tasi for 5kg to 6 kg. I just need to purchase some accurate scales to weigh the small items. My electronic scales broke.

[corvus]

G'day under10kg,
We cross swords once again Harris Scarfe always have scales on special,yes I have experienced pole problems but carried stuff that I could fix them with .
As for getting under7kg that will be an impossibility for me as my very base weight is 7kg without food but I am interested in what others carry and use.
I am concerned about others and their safety (comes with looking after young people for many years on BWalks) and I doubt that I will ever be convinced ULW is for me but to each their own.

[flyfisher]

Hi there under 10kg. If at times some of us may appear critical of your gear list, thats not to say that we are not checking out your lightweight items
and thinking......... is that suitable for me..... suitable for Tasmania in winter ......or in summer.
If you had been in the south of Tassie last week you would know more about what we mean about our bad weather. We had snow in Hobart down to about 150 m level. You can imagine what it would be like at 1000--1200m level with strong wind. It takes the best of equipment to be safe in this weather, even with high levels of experience.
However, come summer and our packs are sure to be somewhat lighter because of this discussion. I find the debate stimulating and thought provoking.
BTW Corvus' bark is far worse than his bite.

Flyfisher

[MichaelfromQLD]

I'm glad to see such a vigorous debate over the humble volley, and I've got another point to add.

Advocates of boots often talk about "ankle support" - I'd argue that when walking over uneven terrain the ankle should not be held rigid. All this does is lead to extra stress on the knee...

[walkinTas]

Myth 1 = hiking boot equals heavy. Not so! There are plenty of light-weight summer walking boots on the market and plenty of mid-weight boots with strong mid-sole support made out of modern water proof materials. Much better options than volleys.

Myth 2 = Lighter is better. Not so! The heavier the load you carry (including person and pack) the stronger, more supportive the boot needs to be (you don't bush-bash with low profile radials on a loaded 4WD, you just don't!). Heavier doesn't necessarily equal stronger and more supportive, but lighter can mean a compromise.

Myth 3 = Ankle support means rigid. Absolutely not! A good boot will allow plenty of forward movement while "supporting" lateral/anterior flex to prevent ankle strains and sprains caused by sudden stretching of the muscles or ligaments when stepping on uneven surfaces. (I shattered my ankle badly when I was 25 and I couldn't walk more than a 100 metres in any boot that held my ankle rigid).

Myth 4 = More ankle/foot movement means less knee strain. No. Walking with moderately heavy or heavy loads and poor arch support can lead to overpronation, which is an excessive inward roll of the ankle and foot while walking. This puts extra stress on the lower body and can lead to knee and lower back pain. If your back hurts at the end of a days walking you have a problem with your gear.

Myth 5 = All hiking boots are the same. No way! There is endless choice. Just because it is labeled 'hiking boot' does mean it is good to walk in, or good for you to walk in. IMO you need to find a boot that feels good on your foot and doesn't pinch or rub or squeeze. If it rubs, pinches or squeezes in the shop it will do the same when you walk. The boot should hold your heal so that there is no heal lift when you walk (rub = blister). You should have the option to tighten the bridge lace before descending to prevent toe jamming (ie. the boot should hold the foot). I also prefer a water-proof tongue and good mid-sole and arch support. If you tried one pair of boots and didn't like them, then shop around until you find a pair of boots that suit you.

You only have two feet and you need them both to walk. Ankle injury, both from sprains and from bashing on rocks and roots, is one of the more common walking injuries. When you are two days walk from home and you have injured your ankle (seen it done) it won't help to wish. The scouts have a saying about this - Be prepared! But who listens to the Scout Master. Eh Corvus!

(IMHO) one should choose the right boot for the intended job; a boot that will support your weight and the weight of your gear in the worst conditions you will experience on your walk. If you are luck you might afford two pairs of boots (summer and winter), if not then choose wisely.

[MichaelfromQLD]

Walking with moderately heavy or heavy loads and poor arch support can lead to overpronation, which is an excessive inward roll of the ankle and foot while walking.

This has been the key downfall I've personally experienced with the volley. This typically (in my case) happened after long distances in conjunction with a heavy pack. Hence the volley now misses out on the longer walks.

I'm not suggesting those who have problems with "Anterior flex" of the ankle wear a volley, it's not suitable for everyone. I've rolled ankles a few times in both volleys and in more supportive low-cut footwear (merrel), and on surfaces other than rock the merrel grips better. However, rolling an ankle in them was more violent than in the volleys, IN MY EXPERIENCE, but there may have been other factors at work.

(IMHO) one should choose the right boot for the intended job; a boot that will support your weight and the weight of your gear in the worst conditions you will experience on your walk

Absolutely. Different trips on different terrain may require different footwear. If you're used to boots, I wouldn't reccomend the volley for anything other than a relatively easy daywalk to start with. If you like the light weight, grip, and feel for the ground, then start using it when appropriate. It might never be appropriate for some people, but that doesn't justify some of the attitudes I've received from the "boot brigade".

[corvus]

G'day MfQ,
Its all about opinion and what we have experienced forget about " attitude from the boot brigade " life is too short to worry about it especially if we can create as much activity on the forum as the "Volley question" has

[walkinTas]

Walking with moderately heavy or heavy loads and poor arch support can lead to overpronation, which is an excessive inward roll of the ankle and foot while walking.

This has been the key downfall I've personally experienced with the volley. This typically (in my case) happened after long distances in conjunction with a heavy pack. Hence the volley now misses out on the longer walks.

That just about ends the case for volleys. It isn't people "with anterior flex of the ankle". It will happen if you carry a load a long distance in poor footwear. Long walks equal fatigue and then without the support of good footwear the problems start. You may not end up with an injury, just tired legs or low level pain, but you risk a lot worse.

I've rolled ankles a few times in both volleys and in more supportive low-cut footwear (merrel), and on surfaces other than rock the merrel grips better. However, rolling an ankle in them was more violent than in the volleys, IN MY EXPERIENCE, but there may have been other factors at work.

And that just about ends the case for low cut shoes on rough ground. If you wear incorrect footwear a sprained ankle (and a crawl home) is a matter of time. You can turn your ankle in shoe just be treading on a crack in the pavement. You have no chance avoid it on rough ground. One second of low concentration. Again, you may get away with it many times with no big injuries, but the risk is greater because you wear the wrong footwear.

As per above, the idea of the boot is not to stop the ankle from moving, it is there to support the ankle so the movement is slow and therefore the sprains (torn ligaments) and strains (injured muscles) are avoided. So, given your experience, hopefully you're smart enough to wear the right footwear and avoid the injuries.

[Nuts]

..

[corvus]

Nuts you know some track Rangers are real Ferals and at times some of them were walking on air as for barefoot !! as a youngster in Scotland as Scouts we were bare A@$ed under our kilts but allways wore Otterbrand Boots the best we could afford .
Why would you compromise basic safety by walking barefoot ,Hereby I issue a challange I will walk the Overland bare A@$ed in a Kilt with any one who wants to do it barefoot dont care Summer or Winter prize is bragging rights that you are still alive.
corvus

[Nuts]

..

[sarge]

The US Army did some experiments to compare the effect of extra weight on the boots vs extra weight in the backpack and they found that the impact on distance covered in a day by soldiers worked out to being "1 lb on the feet = 7 lb on the back".

American soldiers dont hike....I wouldnt listen to the lab boffins. Bulls***t baffles brains........ If you think you can hike in a piece of canvas go ahead. I'll keep my boots on and hopefully wont have stuffed ankles when I get old.

[Son of a Beach]

Nuts you know some track Rangers are real Ferrals and at times some of them were walking on air as for barefoot !! as a youngster in Scotland as Scouts we were bare A@$ed under our kilts but allways wore Otterbrand Boots the best we could afford .
Why would you compromise basic safety by walking barefoot ,Hereby I issue a challange I will walk the Overland bare A@$ed in a Kilt with any one who wants to do it barefoot dont care Summer or Winter prize is bragging rights that you are still alive.
corvus

No problems! I'll do the overland barefoot, just to get you out there bare bummed (not that I particularly want to see that of course - a kilt would be fine. Not that I'd recommend barefoot for bushwalking, but I've done enough of it to know that I can probably handle it on the Overland Track.

Just don't expect me to detour off on any side trips. The bet is ON!

[norts]

I am planning to do the overland eary next year, taking my son. The sooner you know dates the better, I don't want him traumatised by walking up Marions and looking up and seeing Corvus' wedding tackle waving in the wind.

[MichaelfromQLD]

That just about ends the case for volleys.... ... Long walks equal fatigue.....
and then without the support of good footwear the problems start. You may not end up with an injury, just tired legs or low level pain, but you risk a lot worse...
....And that just about ends the case for low cut shoes on rough ground. You have no chance avoid it on rough ground. One second of low concentration. . . .

...And you will slip in boots, because you don't feel the ground underneath you as well

I've taken into account the "risks" vs advantages and found Volleys more than suitable for 80% of the walking I do. Being unsuitable for certain uses doesn't "end the case" for volleys for every other use.

It's pretty clear we won't be agreeing on this one anytime soon, so by way of a truce I'll leave the argument and go on a bit of a tangent.

Ski/Snowboard lessons talk about the importance good falling technique. How would you define a good falling technique for bushwalkers? Is it possible that falling technique can be a greater factor than footwear in terms of leading to injury?

[corvus]

Yes SoaB
We have seen the pics of your feet after a barefoot excursion of only a short distance

[Speculator]

I've actually considered chopping my feet off. I don't see why I need the extra weight of feet. Every time I've slipped over on track there's been one common factor... feet! I really urge people to consider saving weight and avoiding a nasty accident by dragging a pair of bloodied stumps around the bush. It's cheaper than Scarpas or Volleys!

[corvus]

Good Falling technique ?? I always try to land on my pack because at my age landing on anything else really hurts

[walkinTas]

...overpronation ...This has been the key downfall I've personally experienced with the volley.

Did you say that?

I've rolled ankles a few times in both volleys and in more supportive low-cut footwear (merrel)

Did you say that?

I've ...found Volleys more than suitable for 80% of the walking I do.

...And then you said THAT!

Ok! I figure you spend 80% of your time walking around on board-walks and man made tracks and 20% of your time walking in the bush on rough tracks and uneven ground.

Is it possible that falling technique can be a greater factor than footwear in terms of leading to injury?

Given the places you must be walking for the 80%, what are you falling over. Is it your feet or your volleys? Maybe Speculator has the answer after all.

[Son of a Beach]

Good Falling technique ?? I always try to land on my pack because at my age landing on anything else really hurts

I remember the first time I did Frenchmans Cap we went over on the flying fox, and when getting off at the other end, my mate stepped out onto the landing platform, which is 2 or 3 metres of the ground, and stepped backwards off the platform. I was sure he'd broken something, but he landed flat on his back, on his pack. No worries... just got up and kept walking. Packs make a half decent back brace.

But (back on topic) I think I'd rather do what I can avoid falling in the first place, and not have the need to exercise what I do (or don't) know about how to land.

[corvus]

Norts when you wear a Kilt sans breeks things tend not to wave about much if it is cold I also don't think there will be a serious attempt to do the Overland unshod but my challenge still stands

[corvus]

Nuts,
I you go walking with me you are walking with at least one "jock"

[tim]

American soldiers dont hike....I wouldnt listen to the lab boffins. Bulls***t baffles brains........ If you think you can hike in a piece of canvas go ahead. I'll keep my boots on and hopefully wont have stuffed ankles when I get old.

Your're right. They dont have the benifits of tracks to hike on, and carrying in excess of 50kg of gear probably doesn't equate to recreation. And there's only (more than) 500,000 of them, so with such a small sample size and no experience how can they possibly know anything?

[sarge]

Your're right. They dont have the benifits of tracks to hike on, and carrying in excess of 50kg of gear probably doesn't equate to recreation. And there's only (more than) 500,000 of them, so with such a small sample size and no experience how can they possibly know anything?

My point was as a rule US Soldiers dont march - they take transport everywhere its a fundemental difference between the US army and other armies (unlike Australian soldiers - who march everywhere and carry the same weight or more because our equipment is generally older and heavier).

Besides the point if people are going to use the military to prove a point about footwear maybe it would pay to look at what the military actually wear. Ya aint gonna find no army issue pansy canvas shoes....in US or any other military. They wear boots (funny about that....).

[MichaelfromQLD]

Ok! I figure you spend 80% of your time walking around on board-walks and man made tracks and 20% of your time walking in the bush on rough tracks and uneven ground.

Given the places you must be walking for the 80%, what are you falling over. Is it your feet or your volleys? Maybe Speculator has the answer after all.

You know what they say about assumption - It makes an *&%$#! out of u and me. I suggest you refrain from the practice.

Speculator makes his point with a degree of wit that we should all aspire to.

[MichaelfromQLD]

The auto-censor may have made an error. I was referring to *&%$#! the rather stupid-looking donkey-like creature.

Walkintas, I should have stated that I've rolled my ankles when trail running, not walking. I can see how the idea of a person who regularly falls over while walking would be concerning, but that's not quite the case. This is unrelated to the overpronation problem I experience (see below)

When I walk with my wife, I carry all shared gear and a proportion of her gear due to a shoulder injury she has. She enjoys longer walks on formed tracks. I'm sure you can imagine the combination of excess weight, large distance, and repetitive movement leading to fatige and overpronation. It's not that often we do overnight walks together, hence this being the 20% where volleys are unsuitable even though they are relatively easy walks.
When I walk without her I carry less, and I enjoy rougher terrain in which I can't quite manage the same sort of distances. I suspect this is why I don't have problems in volleys despite the terrain. When running, the weight is down and the duration is shorter, hence no problems.This combination is the 80%, so you can see how your assumption was incorrect.

[MichaelfromQLD]

Norts when you wear a Kilt sans breeks things tend not to wave about much if it is cold I also don't think there will be a serious attempt to do the Overland unshod but my challenge still stands

Does a protective layer of elastoplast count as a shoe?

[Son of a Beach]

Norts when you wear a Kilt sans breeks things tend not to wave about much if it is cold I also don't think there will be a serious attempt to do the Overland unshod but my challenge still stands

I'm serious. I will attempt it unshod. I'm used to walking about unshod anyhow. I'll carry boots, expecting that I may well fail and need the boots (particularly if the weather ends up being cold). But so long as I get my usual summer of barefoot training, the soles of my feet will be up to it, even if not my ankles.

Additionally, I would be walking slower than usual, and will not see much as I'll be spending most of the time looking at where I'm putting my feet. But I'm willing if you are!

[corvus]

SoaB,
We can discuss this further in Sept when we meet up at Scout Lodge ,me walking in a Kilt without jocks would not be a major problem however I seriously doubt the sanity in going barefoot for 70 odd km over Dolerite ,Quartz,broken chicken wire on boardwalks,unseen stuff under mud to say the least .
The challenge was issued tongue in cheek as it would be easily achieved by Kilt wearers but I suspect your Life Insurance would be void if you walked barefoot and anything happened and would be wife unfriendly but I will be free to do the Overland again just about anytime from Jan onwards perhaps you could switch to Kilt and roll your RRRs like a Scot instead of you ankles like an non boot wearer