Buying online / Cost of gear in Australia

[tasadam]

Note that the Buying online topic and the Cost of gear in Australia topic have been merged together as they discuss the same things, this keeps all the discussion on the subject easy to find.

[Penguin]

I do personally feel it unethical to exploit the local shops by getting the size and fitting right and then buying overseas
Cheers Brett

I always cringe a bit when I hear people say how clever they were by going into shops to try out/look at products then skite about how much cheaper they can get it from a webdealer. So you have used up the costs of running a retial outlet and then bought from a warehouse/delivery system. Think about it!

We are goign to develope a mix of retial and internet providers as the market finds what it can offer cost effectively. ight this mean that hiking shops will turn into clothing shops and all gear will be bought over the internet?

P

[Franco]

Here is another way of looking at the situation.
Apple imports and sells directly its products here as they do in the US and the UK (and a lot of other countries...)
Now how come an iPad, for example, will be more expensive here AND the UK than in the USA ?
And BTW, the RRP on Apple hardware is 8% on invoice cost, so when you see the Shuffle at $10 off the shop is making well under that (8%...) but feel free to think that you are getting ripped off there too.

We can all agree that prices here are higher than the US, and that is for most products ,not just hiking or cameras, but stating that retailers are profiteering or that camera mark-ups are astronomical is just totally incorrect.
Again, how is it that there are no new non national chain outdoor or camera shops here in Melbourne ?
Several have opened and closed down within a year or two in the last 30 years. How come ?
As for photo gear I can assure you that if the camera section of JB and Harvey Norman was a totally separate business , they would not exist...
Wait for the boom in sales for large tv panels to fade and see what happens.
Franco
BTW, since now I make a commission every time an Aussie buys a Tarptent on line, my interest would be to go along the "we are all ripped off" line. However that would be dishonest of me because I know otherwise.

[Drifting]

I still don't understand why gear that is made by Aussie companies in SE Asia still has to cost so much more than gear that is sold by American, European or Japanese companies in SE Asia. Logically, Aussie gear should be somewhat cheaper in Australia than it is overseas.

Also, on that note, how is it that some Aussie/NZ gear is actually cheaper in the US than here, or at least the same price?

[Drifting]

Here is another way of looking at the situation.
Apple imports and sells directly its products here as they do in the US and the UK (and a lot of other countries...)
Now how come an iPad, for example, will be more expensive here AND the UK than in the USA ?
And BTW, the RRP on Apple hardware is 8% on invoice cost, so when you see the Shuffle at $10 off the shop is making well under that (8%...) but feel free to think that you are getting ripped off there too.

We can all agree that prices here are higher than the US, and that is for most products ,not just hiking or cameras, but stating that retailers are profiteering or that camera mark-ups are astronomical is just totally incorrect.
Again, how is it that there are no new non national chain outdoor or camera shops here in Melbourne ?
Several have opened and closed down within a year or two in the last 30 years. How come ?
As for photo gear I can assure you that if the camera section of JB and Harvey Norman was a totally separate business , they would not exist...
Wait for the boom in sales for large tv panels to fade and see what happens.
Franco
BTW, since now I make a commission every time an Aussie buys a Tarptent on line, my interest would be to go along the "we are all ripped off" line. However that would be dishonest of me because I know otherwise.

This is true- it is the Walmart effect that keeps prices down in the US, and while it's good to have low prices, there's a lot of downside to giant retailers as well. Good luck getting the same service from Walmart that you get from Tassie Tackle in Burnie!

[Son of a Beach]

Here is another way of looking at the situation.
Apple imports and sells directly its products here as they do in the US and the UK (and a lot of other countries...)
Now how come an iPad, for example, will be more expensive here AND the UK than in the USA ?
And BTW, the RRP on Apple hardware is 8% on invoice cost, so when you see the Shuffle at $10 off the shop is making well under that (8%...) but feel free to think that you are getting ripped off there too.

I'm a bit off-topic here, but...

Apple gear does not have the price difference between USA and Australia that it once did (which was atrocious not long ago). I don't think they have announced pricing for the iPad in Australia yet (It's due to be released here in about a month's time I think, after originally being due this week). However, their prices on other gear are very similar between the two countries.

Eg, Their base 'MacBook' (laptop computer) is USD$999 in the USA and AUD$1299 in Australia (both free shipping). If you were to convert to Australian dollars at the current exchange rate, that comes to $1206 in the USA and $1299 in Australia.
Similartly the iPod Shuffle is USD$59 and AUD$79. When converted Aussie dollars that comes to $71 in USA and $79 in Australia.

NB: The prices are the same if you buy them in Australia from an independent (ie, non-Apple-owned) retail shop.

Reference: The USA Apple Store and the Australian Apple Store.

Not that much of a difference compared to the enormous differences we see with some other goods in Australia. However, they have their own business in Australia, and sell and distribute their own goods. I don't have much idea about these sorts of businesses, so I don't know how different that is to running an independent wholesale business.

[sthughes]

I don't think the retailers are to blame as much as the rest of the 'system'. I agree that it's not really ethical to try on stuff in shops then buy online.

[Ent]

BTW, since now I make a commission every time an Aussie buys a Tarptent on line, my interest would be to go along the "we are all ripped off" line. However that would be dishonest of me because I know otherwise.

Franco might be worthwhile mentioning this in your signature line just to avoid any confusion.

Just out of curiosity what was the main catalyst for Henry to revisit the fly length on the Scarp? It is great thing that a manufacture listen and did this by the way When will the two man version receive the same treatment?

Cheers Brett

PS

Yes I use a two tier approach to gear buying. If the local shop has it and demonstrates skill and good advice I buy it but if not in stock or I stumble across it on the web I buy it online. Frankly good advice often means that the initial higher purchase price is the only cost as buying online often means I wind up "rebuying" once I got the first experience to find out what I needed.

Cheers Brett

[Franco]

"Franco might be worthwhile mentioning this in your signature line just to avoid any confusion. "
I am trying to keep my personal likes/dislikes separate from TT. But I am already doing that when commenting about tents.
Franco
Scarp 2010 late May..
(that was a franco at tarptent dot com bit...)

[Ent]

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[etrangere]

A few people have commented on the ethics of looking at gear at a retailer then going and buying it online. I also have pondered this question. I have been refered to on this site as a "gear tragic" ie 3 macpac tents, 3 StS tarps, 13 stoves.......you get the idea

I have only bought 3 items online from OS

Katadyn Pocket filter - $350 less online
MSR Dromedary bags 10 liter x 2 - $94 less online
Optimus Svea 123R stove - unable to find a seller here in Aus, even those who sold Optimus wouldnt order it in for me

I have bought thousands of dollars of gear from local shops here in Perth and yes I have looked at the first two items on my list in store before buying online. So am I unethical? If in store browsing at gear or perhaps buying something I need do I overt my eyes from anything I may even be thinking of buying online? If while browsing I take a close look at something that interests me but dont buy it am I then obliged to never purchase it online from OS??

Perhaps you look at a jacket at store A, try it on, get their advice......but then its cheaper at store B down the road. Is it unethical to then buy from store B?

Then upon the issue of ethics how about Kathmandu overinflating their recommended retail price just to be able to quote 50% off during their sales?

I dont claim to have the answers, but as you can see its not black and white either. What do others think on this issue??

[flatfoot]

I've been doing quite a bit of gear buying. It has been taking a long time to make a decision on what to buy and from where. Whilst I live in greater Sydney, it's just not convenient to head over an hr into the CBD. I've got a Kathmandu store nearby and have frequented them for clothing and gaiters - on sale! I've also spent some dollars in an anaconda superstore at Auburn.

Perhaps you look at a jacket at store A, try it on, get their advice......but then its cheaper at store B down the road. Is it unethical to then buy from store B?

I think in this situation I would give Store A an opportunity to price-match, although this would depend on the friendliness of the staff and whether I can put up with the inconvenience of heading back to Store A.

I've researched a large amount of gear online and found that it is less necessary to see the gear if reviews and product videos are available. Some of the big US websites have a quite extensive set of buyer-submitted reviews and ratings. These help with product selection. Clothing is a different matter. Sizes can be so different from one manufacturer to another. I've organised purchase of some North Face wicking t-shirts online via US due to the good reviews they had. I selected based on the size chart so it will be interesting to see if they fit when they arrive.

I've also ordered a Deuter AirContact 75 pack via the US. I read the specs / reviews. I also found as many pics as I could from various online stores and looked for demonstration videos on youtube. I was satisfied based on the sizing chart and the range of adjustment that the pack would fit me. I must also admit to looking at Deuter packs in Anaconda last week, although I was only seriously looking at the day packs and did end up buying a Deuter daypack from Anaconda.

Then upon the issue of ethics how about Kathmandu overinflating their recommended retail price just to be able to quote 50% off during their sales?

I would much prefer that they just offer more reasonable prices year-round. I've joined the 'clubs' for a number of the retailers and will pay attention to their sales. Fortunately for me Kathmandu and Anaconda aren't too far out of my way. I've never actually set foot in any of the Kent St stores. It might be an interesting exercise just to see what the range and prices are like (although I can get a limited understanding of that from their websites).

[ninjapuppet]

I've never actually set foot in any of the Kent St stores. It might be an interesting exercise just to see what the range and prices are like (although I can get a limited understanding of that from their websites).

If you're ever in town with some free time, its always good to pop into Kent St because I find there are quite often a few individual items on sale, which are NOT listed as special on their websites. I picked up an MSR dromedary for about $40 from one of the stores while window shopping one day, then saw it as being listed as normal price of $80 on their website when i came home. This price certainly beats ordering online.

[etrangere]

I've never actually set foot in any of the Kent St stores. It might be an interesting exercise just to see what the range and prices are like (although I can get a limited understanding of that from their websites).

If you're ever in town with some free time, its always good to pop into Kent St because I find there are quite often a few individual items on sale, which are NOT listed as special on their websites. I picked up an MSR dromedary for about $40 from one of the stores while window shopping one day, then saw it as being listed as normal price of $80 on their website when i came home. This price certainly beats ordering online.

I totally agree with the browse before you shop online too. At Main Peak here in Perth I stumbled across a Outdoor Research Deluxe Bivy at $225 (1/2 price). I was going to mention here for those who may want to order one online from them but when I checked it was not a special available on their website. So it certainly is worth browsing the shops regularly.

[Ent]

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[etrangere]

The unethical bit was more aimed at people that visit a shop to buy say boots and then take forever questioning staff and getting them fitted properly for size while all along intending them to buy overseas. In fact would not buy from overseas without getting this "free" fitting session to avoid shipping back wrong fittings.

I totally agree with you there. But I can sympathise with the frustration when trying to order stuff that has to "fit".

A while back I posted about trying to decide which pack to buy. It came down to the Mont Pioneer or Macpac Cascade. I have seen and tried the Mont pack on instore here in Perth but there is no Macpac store here to compare. I emailed Macpac re advice on sizing as my measurements from what I could tell were right on the border of the medium and large sizes. They suggest I order a size if it didnt fit return it for the other size. I pondered this but lets say I try a medium think its too small so I exchange it for a large only to find that when trying the large size that it's too big and perhaps the medium was right after all. So Macpac suggested they send both out to me I try both and then return the one I didnt want. Guess what I ended up buying the Mont pack, my reason? Well i hadnt actually seen the Macpac Cascade in the flesh, if they sent both sizes out to me and upon closer inspection of the pack I decided i didnt like it and prefered the Mont so sent them both back I would have felt so guilty for wasting Macpac's time. The offer to send both sizes out for me to try was very generous and I cant fault Macpacs customer service, it was excellent. Who knows they may have taken them both back or perhaps offered me a credit if that situation had arisen. But it just shows the difficulty ordering online for certain items.

Maybe in the perfect world there would be a massive store with display stock only. You go in try the items on for size or browse then order it online and then lets say the manufacturer pays a % of the profits to the display store. Well we can dream about it!

[rcaffin]

So Macpac suggested they send both out to me I try both and then return the one I didnt want.

This is standard practice in America. Nothing wrong with it at all - just the vendor doing his best to make a sale. Encourage it.

As for buying from an Australian retail store at twice the landed price from the web ... do people still do that? Blimey.

Cheers

[etrangere]

So Macpac suggested they send both out to me I try both and then return the one I didnt want.

This is standard practice in America. Nothing wrong with it at all - just the vendor doing his best to make a sale. Encourage it.

As for buying from an Australian retail store at twice the landed price from the web ... do people still do that? Blimey.

Cheers

I would have been more than happy for them to do that if I was 100% sure it ws the Macpac Cascade I wanted, but i wasnt prepared to have them do that then return both and buy the mont pack if they werent up to scratch. Just seemed a bit rude if i had

[adventurerichard]

I only joined this forum today and already i'm getting stuck in! Okay, regarding the cost of goods here v USA. No different to a lot of products - for example my car here costs $45k but in the US $22K and yet they're coming out the same factory in Germany.

I can say this much, the retailer isn't the one rorting us, it's the wholesalers. Someone raised Thermarest as an example and it was one of the reasons I got a Pacific Outdoor mat - in the US the T/rests are say US$80 but over here $240 whereas the PO mat was US$75 and $120 here. That difference is solely the wholesaler IMO. someone mentioned the retailer has 100% markup but that's certainly not unusual - and considering how tough retail is, leaves very little left over (i've looked at the books of many retailers over the years). I happen to know that US shop sare working on 100% markup/50% GM too so no difference there from a retail perspective. After wages, rent etc the very best retailer in any market segment would be doing well with 10% net profit, many operating at closer to 5%. Can you see why so many can't or won't give you 'even' 10% off now!!

As for Kathmandu, what's interesting is that now they're a public company you can check out their results, and they're nothing short of unbelievable in terms of their closing margin: 62%. David Jones, considered to have the best margins of any dept store worldwide achieves 40% so this is nothing to do with purchasing power, just simply that at even 70% off, it's overpriced at Kathmandu. They simply don't operate on the same margins as most of the other chains and independents. I remember they had a Gore-Tex Paclite in their last sale $550 down to $329 - Paddys have sold the same one in all bar name for $349 for years - which is the better deal!? The ONLY way you can do this is when you are a one brand store like K'du because there's no reference to their products in store. Only a matter of time before someone like Choice has a red hot go at them i reckon.

It's all well and good going at the brands but consider this. If you're USA Brand X selling lightweight pants in Aus, you get a distributor to act for you. They have to pay the Brand X say 20% royalty, do all the advertising, buy in samples (VERY expensive) and make a buck. Now the house brands, they don't have those costs yet typically they can be priced the same as Brand X here. Yet we all moan about how expensive Brand X is here compared to USA when really it's a lot of the own label stuff that's overpriced too.

my 50c.

[Ent]

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[flatfoot]

As for Kathmandu, what's interesting is that now they're a public company you can check out their results, and they're nothing short of unbelievable in terms of their closing margin: 62%. David Jones, considered to have the best margins of any dept store worldwide achieves 40% so this is nothing to do with purchasing power, just simply that at even 70% off, it's overpriced at Kathmandu. They simply don't operate on the same margins as most of the other chains and independents. I remember they had a Gore-Tex Paclite in their last sale $550 down to $329 - Paddys have sold the same one in all bar name for $349 for years - which is the better deal!? The ONLY way you can do this is when you are a one brand store like K'du because there's no reference to their products in store. Only a matter of time before someone like Choice has a red hot go at them i reckon.

How about adding Kathmandu (and others) to the mix for the "resource super profits tax" ? It seems Kathmandu are ripe for the pillaging.

[ninjapuppet]

Kathmandu is partly owned by Investment bank Goldman Sachs, and we all know what their main focus is:
Its a company where the average salary was USD $600k back in 2006

http://money.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=1000884

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/FunMoney ... id=2723990

[Ent]

There is no doubt that Kathmandu certainly have mastered the art of high RRP and then with a "normal" sale price being about the same if not dearer than other brands which are often better quality. Also as mentioned by Franco, eta, the half price, half price, throw out sales can give reasonable savings so a case buyer beware in understanding what is the "true" price of a product.

Also despite the protestations of the more vocal marketers the Katmandu approach of taking a brand once renowned for high quality and then shifting production offshore to places like China and concentrating on cost savings while still attempting to hold the previous price then conducting perpetual sales has become the accepted business model. This means it is very hard for consumers to establish what is the "real value" price? Is it the RRP price, the 25% of price for members, the 40% sale price or the 50% end of season clear out price for a product of even the 25% of everything in store including already discounted to 50% sales price? The simple advice is logical to most, do not buy until the maximum discount price has been reached. This means stores remaining idle for a significant period of time and then pack to the rafters during "sales" so as a consequence the ability to "buy" advice from experienced staff is compromised in the mad crush. It is tempting to hunt for products during non sale periods and then wait for an item to appear as it makes not much sense to pay RRP, or does it?

People are becoming rather cynical and are buying offshore where the prices are far better and the service if things go wrong is also much better but at the cost of high postage. I once received a sleeping bag ex USA with a left hand zip when I had ordered a right hand zip. I actually wanted the left hand zip but the USA site only showed right hand zips. I mentioned the muck up in passing on the site generated automatic feedback form and was next day contacted with full apologies and an offer to immediately correct the situation and to charge any freight cost to them plus an additional 10% reduction in price was offered for my trouble. It took quite a few emails to them to confirm that I was very happy. They still offered a discount which I declined probably because I was more in a state of shock over the quality of customer service compared to the complete absence with another well known brand so did not want to “misuse” the generous offer as I actually had got what I was originally wanted. Needless to say I buy from that site quite often and no homebrand from the other.

So based on the above my approach is to check out stores I trust and buy urgent replacement items or things require fitting from them which means they pick up my impulse buys as well. I check out sales but only buy when the price is about half the price from the trusted shops. For items not requiring fitting I haunt the web when the Aussie banana is strong against the Greenback and then pounce. This works well for me as it means the trusted local stores still get about the same business had there been comparable rivals so should remain in business, I get the chance to hunt through chuck out bins and racks for “bargains” and I get the pick of the products worldwide. It is interesting that MD appear to be moving away from the Kathmandu business model and aiming to regain the ground they left to Paddy Pallin. Also the local franchise of MD stock an good range of high quality gear such as One Planet amongst others and have very knowledgeable staff that you bump into when walking. Much the same thing with the few independents such as Tassie Tackle that is probably the best place to get fitted for quality bushwalking boots.

Of course this is my personal approach but it appears logical, at least to me

Cheers Brett

[rucksack]

This is a slightly different tack, but I hope that it is germaine to the discussion. I live and work in Shanghai. I have to travel quite a lot, so I buy my gear in Shanghai, Hobart (when I am down walking), and in the UK and the US. I fairly well have access to every brand of everything (and sadly, as a consequence, I have a lot of everything). Many, many outdoor brands in Australia, the US and Europe are obviously sub-contracting their manufacturing to China, and to a lesser extent Vietnam and elsewhere in Asia. Australian brands and wholesalers are small fish when compared to their US or European equivalents. Those with large ongoing orders can always negotiate a more competitive per item price from the manufacturer than those shopping with a small cheque book. There is no rocket science involved. That the outdoor sector in Australia has (and is) more and more contracting to chains has a lot to do with the sourcing of stock and the re-locating of most manufacturing of outdoor equipment (of every kind) to Asia. It enables volume orders to be placed.

The factories, particularly those in China, and generally in the south of China, are on the very large side and they need volume orders, something the Australian companies can only deliver in the way that the American and European wholesalers can, if they are arranged in chains and have centralised buying capable of producing volume orders. Interestingly, the Chinese outdoor shops (of which there are squillions), stock Chinese-made, Japanese-made, Korean-made US-made and European-made gear. I only buy top-end brands because I want the after sales service and I want the warranty to mean something. I also don't want the equipment to break down 5,000 metres up some Sichuan mountain. I don't need to buy on-line because I travel enough that I can buy 'in person'. I prefer it, but I appreciate that living in Australia, this is often (mostly) not an option.

What I have noticed in the Australian outdoor shops, though, is that none stock the high-end Chinese domestic brands. China has only one chain of outdoor shops and it is a very small chain indeed when compared to 1.3 billion people (and it is only present in a very small number of mostly 1st tier Chinese cities). All the other stores here are stand-alone. By the time that the Japanese-made, Korean-made US-made and European-made gear arrives in the Chinese outdoor stores, the price is high, same as in Australia. They cannot and do not order in volume. So, what does the Chinese outdoor tragic do? They buy on-line, same as in Australia. The only difference is that China has a very large domestic brand environment, (which Australian and New Zealand used to have, but alas, no longer have, save for the very excellent One Planet in Melbourne and a few others too, but you get the drift). When I buy Chinese-made, I buy top-end Chinese equipment and clothing (the sort that doesn't make it to Australia), because it is well-made, well-designed and backed by warranty.

The other difference between China and Australia is that rarely is one faced with the moral of seeking advice from a store and then ordering on-line. In most instances, that advice, with very few exceptions, will generally not be available to the same extent here.

Having said all of this, if a market is dominated by a small number of wholesalers, their margins can be quite, how shall we say, 'healthy', because they will always find it difficult to resist to temptation. It is the nature of the beast. In the US and Europe, it is virtually impossible for most wholesalers in the outdoor sector to find themselves in that position. That is not so in other retail sectors, for instance Walmart, who manufacture in China and sell in America, (though they also sell in China now too.)

The problem for Australian outdoor afficionados is that Australia is small in population, most manufacturing has gone off-shore, (we are now a long way from the manufacturing centres, hence freight costs and time), and the retail sector is concentrated, (a small number of chain brands dominate). As some correspondents have already experienced when trying to buy some brands on-line, there will be reluctance, (however generated and you can take your pick), on the part of the US stores/manufacturers to sell directly to individuals in Australia, (hence the 'circumvention' of using US shipping agents with a 'local' US address, etc.). There isn't a way around all of this, of course, for all the reasons that we all know. Manufactureres, wholesalers and retail chains at both ends are not going to suddenly change their mind. It's business, after all, and the nature of all business is to be competitive.

Trying to buy in a large retail market, (or from the domestic place of manufacture), has always been an option, well before on-line buying became possible. Walkers and climbers and skiers heading to New Zealand long used that opportunity to purchase Macpac, Fairydown or Hallmark equipment at very competitive prices. Ditto for trips to the US, returning home with original North Face tents, Thermarest mats, MSR stoves and such like. On-line buying just makes it easier, but it hasn't changed the practice. It's buying either in a larger retail market (as in US), or at the domestic place of manufacture (as was the case with NZ). Often, (but not always), there was the additional advantage of buying with a strong Australian dollar.

So now, instead of asking someone to bring back a tent for you, when they were off to the US, or picking up a new pack in Christchurch, we buy on-line.

Some feel the moral dilemna more than others, but that, I suspect, is more to do with our feelings as human beings. When we asked a walking or climbing friend, or a relation going on holidays to pick up a new Olympus or Cascade in Christchurch whilst they were over in New Zealand, it seemed more like the 'real thing'. We were getting the equipment from the 'font', delivered to us by human hands and the 'hands' of a friend or a family member ... and it was cheaper than in Australia. With on-line purchases, the connection is physically dismembered. The equipment arrives in a box from somewhere and the only connection is a trail of emails and a credit card debit. Perhaps, it is this lack of genuine human contact which pricks our conscience more than, say, comparing the prices in a number of outdoor shops before making a purchase from one of them.

Now, if only we were not so human ...

rucksack

[Drifting]

This is VERY interesting Rucksack- particularly the bit about top-end Chinese manufacturers. Can you give us some brand names/links?

[adventurerichard]

This means it is very hard for consumers to establish what is the "real value" price? Is it the RRP price, the 25% of price for members, the 40% sale price or the 50% end of season clear out price for a product of even the 25% of everything in store including already discounted to 50% sales price?

Assuming most independant outdoor retailers work to 40-50% margin, I would say that only when K'du are about 70-80% off are they in fact the same as the independant retailer. Scary huh!?

(I say independant because a number of businesses in this industry are mimicking the k'du model, perhaps not to the same extent but certainly pushing out higher RRP's and "25% off for having a vowel in your name", or whatever the criteria is today).

It is interesting that MD appear to be moving away from the Kathmandu business model and aiming to regain the ground they left to Paddy Pallin. Also the local franchise of MD stock an good range of high quality gear such as One Planet amongst others and have very knowledgeable staff that you bump into when walking.

I would agree with this with in some part, my experience having been that the franchise stores from MD's and Snowgum are somewhat different to the company operations. I guess owner/operators have a vested interest in doing the right thing and are in it for the long haul plus they have a lot of extra choice over the company stores (having spoken to some of them) in terms of what they stock. MD's Newcastle is quite different from MD's Kent St!

However, overall I have to say that MD's have gone wholeheartedly down the K'du route - I think they've been on 'sale' for the last 4 months solid in one form or another and they consitently have huge 'savings'. Anyone that can offer x% off for joining a club etc is effectively going to have to have x% higher prices overall to cover that cost. It may not be on every item but you can bet that there is plenty of fat in a number of lines to make up for when they have to discount say a steripen or a petzl tikka. you just can't do it any other way i'm afraid and those companies that are becoming more vertically integrated have the biggest opportunity to inflate their prices.

There's no doubt that at $400m Kathmandu have done a very good job - better than anyone else, but it doesn't mean to say it's an ethical approach to doing business.

I say stick with independents and franchises, get to know the staff and the owner (who's probably out the back doing the books or out the front getting her/his hands dirty!) and 9/10 you'll end up getting value which to me is some sort of combination of the right advice (which has saved me from wasting money before!)/right price (been told about an upcoming sale) and gear I like. If you happen to know exactly what you want (and given that some people in the shops really know their stuff having been doing it for decades i'm not confident i do know more)- go the net and buy o/s, but if not, bricks n mortar everytime for me. Same applied when i was buying new speakers for my car as the staff saved me from wasting $200 on ones i'd selected after weeks of research that i thought were 'right' only to have them compare the two with a cheaper model i'd dismissed...that sounded better! I guess when staff are talking rubbish, I go the net cos you're no worse off but as i say, independants and franchises generally do a good job in my experience.

[blacksheep]

I think you are missing something guys...what about the margin that a brand such as One Planet or western mountaineering or Arcteryx make when they sell to a retailer? The cost of goods, head office costs (rent & wages), distribution and warehousing costs, advertising and cost of finance still exists whether you own the retail store or sell to an independent retailer. This is where it stops for some brands, they cover these costs, add a margin and leave the rest for the retailer to manage...

I'm sure every brand would love to never have slow stock in their warehouse and assurances that a new product will be adopted by their retailers if they have invested time and money on it...One of the main advantages in operating a retail store in a vertically intergrated business model is control over stock- get it ranged and turning in over without seasonal and external pressure helps ensure cashflow is there to pay the bills.

Macpac opened our own stores because we had too. Simple as that. With many retailers direct importing brands they also became more incentivised to give more shop space to they own brands..not true of every retail store I agree, but Macpac's major accounts ranged more of their own brands, or brands that gave them better margins, so why persist with a model that was taking things backwards?

Even though we own the store space a store has to be accounted for as a seperate cost center, and the head office must "sell" to the store at margin. If Kathmandu are recording a 65% margin, don't think that is a pure retail margin which is comparable to, say Myers making a 65% margin...It includes the margin all the way from cost of goods through to selling price...

I can see why people get fed up with buying some products in NZ/AU though...There are several things I've turned down putting in Macpac shops as the wholesaler is asking for more that I can buy form USA retailers...THAT is very hard to swallow.

[Ciaran]

I'm upgrading a sleeping bag as I think my old one has had its day. I have my eye on one, have tried and tested it as my friend already owns one, he purchased his in the States. I priced this bag new in the retail shop here in Adelaide and the price was over $1000. I asked if a compression bag could be thrown in considering the money I was about to spend, but it was only after a good deal of to-ing and fro-ing the reluctant salesperson relented.

I went home and priced the bag online and the price was a little more than one third the price in the shop including delivery. I want to buy from my home city, but in this case that would not really be sensible of me.

On the upside, with the money I will save from getting it online, I will now have hundreds of dollars to spend on other items in the store, that are more convenient for me to purchase here.

I like to think of that as a win win.

[rucksack]

Drifting, here are a few links to some of the Chinese brands that I have purchased over past years here in Shanghai and in nearby Hangzhou. Some of the web sites are more or less only in Chinese, so not altogether helpful if you cannot read Mandarin, but you will get the drift. Other sites are fairly minimal, even though their products are fine. Here are a few ...

The SANFO chain .. this will give you an idea of the range of brands that they carry ... http://www.sanfo.com (or http://www.sanfo.com/index-english).

Some of the higher end Chinese brands are:

STEEP RIDGE http://www.steepridgecn.com/
SHEHE http://www.shehe.com.cn/
SNOW WOLF http://www.snowwolf.com.cn/
SINTERYX http://www.jial.com/st/
(was AIRWAVES), but now sold as ARCADIA http://www.evermax-acadia.com/acadia/
FIRE MAPLE http://www.fire-maple.com ... but better to view on the Sanfo site ... http://www.sanfo.com/hwyp/pinpai/Fire-maple.asp
MOBI GARDEN TENTS also branded as DR MOUNTAIN ... the site is http://www.dr-mountain.com ... but it doesn't work

Anyway, that's a few to start with. I have STEEP RIDGE clothing and bivvy bag, SHEHE down jacket & fleece jacket, SNOW WOLF shells (overpants & parka), SINTERYX waterproofed down parka (for seriously low temperatures ... it was minus 37C last winter up in Jilin), AIRWAVES self-inflating mattress and self-inflating pillow - they have now changed their brand name to ARCADIA, FIRE MAPLE cooking pots, and a MOBI GARDEN 1.5 person silnylon 3 season tent. They are all fine. I have used the MOBI GARDEN tent in Tasmania and it sailed through a very severe lashing on Shelf Camp whilst I was on the Mt Ann circuit.

Most of these Chinese outdoor equipment companies got their start doing manufacturing for North American and European outdoor companies, but have more recently set out to establish their own brand and own designs. It's been a bit of a learning curve, I'm sure, but some of their equipment is really very good now and I am more than happy to rely on it and in temperatures and weather rather more serious than almost anywhere in Tasmania or Australia. I had a stint of minus 15C one winter on the Central Plateau with quite a bit of snow, as well, but when it drops down to minus 37C and keeps falling, (the following week dropped below minus 40C), the clothing, shells, sleeping bags, mats and tents receive a bit of a workout. None have been found wanting. I still use a lot of Australian, New Zealand, North American, European, Japanese and South Korean equipment, so it just means that I have added Chinese equipment to the mix.

rucksack

[adventurerichard]

I can see why people get fed up with buying some products in NZ/AU though...There are several things I've turned down putting in Macpac shops as the wholesaler is asking for more that I can buy form USA retailers...THAT is very hard to swallow.

doesn't surprise me - if the goods are 50% or more cheaper in the US, that would have to put them at or below cost for a retailer would it not? it appears that unlike TV's, outdoor gear rarely seems to go down in price as our dollar gets stronger.

My point about vertical integration probably wandered off track a bit but my main thrust was that within a 'one brand' store the shop has the ability to set its own prices. If you want to price a GoreTex jacket at $1000 when you're cost is really $100 then nothing stopping you. You can then take 80% off and still make regular retail margins. I appreciate what you said about shops importing their own gear which displaced your brand but a bonus of vertical integration is the ability to create higher margins for yourself too.