Rain jacket - what's worth having?

[wayno]

yeah i had similar probs with the resolution, near new... raining, wetted out on the surface pretty quickly and stopped breathing, got saturated inside....
wasnt any wind so the water wasnt getting bown in through my hood....
I wonder if the matt finish of the nylon and all the ridges in teh ripstop nylon just encourage water to hold onto the fabric,
i have a columbia peak 2 peak, very smooth surface fabric, water just runs off it no problem. dont get wet in it...
all DWR is not equal, its a bit of a dark art as to how the various companies treat their fabrics, I"ve heard about very high temps being used to apply the chemicals . also heard about siliconn being impregnated into fibres.

[ULWalkingPhil]

I had the same issue when i purchased my Macpac eVent Prophet trousers. My first hike two days after purchase on a cool day on the Coastal hike at the Royal National Park the trousers did not keep me dry. They wetted out on the first sign of rain. After my return i went back to the Macpac store of purchase and was also adviced to use Grangers 2in 1. it has helped.

But. Ive recently purchased a new Montane eVent jacket and it beads water like ive never seen. I would expect my prophet trousers bead similar to my Montane jacket. The macpac prophet has never beaded water similar to mt montane jacket. Ive retreated my macpac prophet a few days ago with Grangers XT proofer. Next time it rains ill be testing them out and if they dont bead ill be returning them to Macpac when im in brisbane in a couple of weeks. For the money i paid for these i would expect them to bead water. I only worn them in cold conditions. i couldnt bare the thought of wearing the prophets in our warm climate.

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Last edited by ULWalkingPhil on Sun 25 Mar, 2012 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[wayno]

just go and stand in the shower,,,,,

[Ent]

Hi

I have the $135 eVent Air jacket from Montane. Now me and Montane have not got on well. The 200 jacket was a disaster, self destructing in a slip fall. This event was posted about.

So next jacket was the mid weight eVent one. Hate the cut and the hood is awful plus the seam selling tape is at the ends starting to peel back. But it breathes ok and sheds water so no issue with the eVent fabric just Montane design and construction.

Ok $135 so what the heck it is light enough to pack as a test and cheap enough not to feel to aggrieved if it does not work. So brought the Montane Air jacket. It does not come with Gore-tex "it will not rain for the next ten bushwalking guarantee" so on the weekend I got to test it in anger.

Conditions were rain, snow and lot of snow covered bush that had collapsed on the track. The hood design is brilliant, the best one by far I have used. The arm length good and even a little tight in the body for an xxl type guy. In other words a proper fit not the stupid Norm inspired fit so beloved by some brands. The eVent material is great. It beads and sheds water like my much loved Paddy Pallin Vista. Apart from the bum freezer length I would rate it even higher.

On eVent I tend to think that it is a chooks' lottery depending on brand. RAB is great and so is Montane. I agree that the shiner looking the finish the better the water beads and runs off.

Now as anyone knows that reads this site I am not a friend of MacPac so easy to dismiss any comments that I make on their products. But they do appear to have issues with their eVent. In the real world of face to face chatting rather than the esoteric on line world I have not met a long term happy user. All hold that their eVent jackets wet out and some claim that their jackets leak.

I have found that eVent in at least two other brands works well. Have not found it any better than Gore-tex but then I have found Gore-tex far superior to other so called breathable fabrics. And yes I have a sizable collection of jackets.

Anyway my two cents worth.

Cheers

[sthughes]

I also tried my new Montane Air on Friday. 4 hours of snow, light hail and a little light rain. In short - fantastic. Excellent hood, good fit, awesome DWR (never wetted out at all), I've never felt totally dry at the end of a walk like that one, but I did on this occasion.

Now if it was just below knee length - perfect.

Compared:
Kathmandu Gore Tex Active shell: Lighter, hood not as good, DWR good but not as good, breath-ability similar, slightly better length, similar fit.
Macpac Hollyford Event: Much much heavier, hood similar quality, DWR totally useless, nowhere near as breathable (even when not wetted out), little better length, fat man fit.
Kathmandu NGX thing: As for Macpac Hollyford, but about 60-70% cheaper.

[wayno]

it's ironical that the membranes are what gets promoted by the manufacturers, when in the end how well the garment breathes is more to do with fabric texture, thickness and DWR finish....

I've read reviews where the membranes were almost irrelevant for picking performance, fabric thickness played a bigger part in breathability...

so you end up paying big bucks for the latest membranes and don't necessarily get bet a better garment at all.

[ULWalkingPhil]

Worn my Montane Air Jacket yesterday at the local markets. The water beaded of and literally fell of the jacket, breathability great. So far im very happy with the jacket.

Its light at 330grams and at $135.00 a bargain.

Durability with a pack on is my only concern thus far, but after reading some of the reports here i think it will be fine.

My next overnight hike will be on the Gold Coast Hinterland Great Walk in a few weeks.

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[ULWalkingPhil]

In regards to Macpac eVent, owning a Prophet trousers for the past year. I have to say im now somewhat disapointed with its DWR performance. I now know the ability of a quality high DWR product such as the Montane jacket.

The Montane jacket is the 2nd eVent product ive owned and the performance of this jacket is in another league compared to my Prophet trousers. I thought the Prophet was pretty good till i seen the performance of the montane jacket.



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[icemancometh]

DWR is just a surface thing and is not restricted to WPs...any new wind jacket will have it too...

[norts]

Just put my jacket in the shower would have been less than a minute, beading in places other areas just wetting out, inside of the jacket was damp in quite a few places.
Jacket is stuffed as far as I am concerned. Will be my town jacket.
Going walking next week, will have to take the old standby.

Roger

[Ent]

Hi Norts

Bummer, you certainly gave it a decent chance to work. Amazed that in the shower water comes through as that is not a breathing issue it is leaking. I wonder if eVent comes with an always keep you dry guarantee like Goretex or you brought an orphan with no parent prepared to stand up and fix the problem?

I hope that your next jacket has better warranty backup. Maybe it is the manufacturer of the jacket fault by doing something strange or there are more than one quality grade of eVent? My eVent stuff works well as does the Gore-tex stuff.

I know that you seek a no fuss life but I think you need to mention to the manufacturer that the jacket is not of merchantable quality and ask for a refund. Any respectable manufacturer would once they have had been given a chance to fix the problem and/or confirmed no user damage.

Be interested to see their response. Hopefully resolution to the Resolution jacket.

Regards Brett

[corvus]

G'day Norts,
I have a similar problem with a pack however the Owner of the the company is going out of his way to rectify this so I really think Macpac should be doing the same.
I am of the belief that as there was nothing wrong with my money I should expect the same with goods purchased and refund replace or fix.
corvus

[norts]

Brett it is a a couple of years old, They have replaced the jacket twice already, back in in August 2010. I am now thinking, did I wear that jacket as i was pushing through all that scoparia on the Southern Ranges?
I dont know that it is necessarily a warranty issue.
They have looked after me in the past .
I know I wont be buying another Macpac Event jacket. Just had too many issues.
Has anyone got a good review of a Macpac Event jacket?
Roger

[Ent]

Hi Norts

With two jackets down me think that you are not the issue but then you might be scrub diver. I have never shrunk away from nor gone looking for that dreaded plant but my Vista appears unaffected with the occasional encounter. I think after time that plant does do damage to a jacket but I found no issue yet. On good reports of McPac eVent. Well much the reverse. Struck a walker on the Western Arthurs trip that was rather wet and unhappy with a Prophet jacket. He claimed that it leaked too and by the look of him hard not to agree. His was two years old and otherwise looked in good nick. Hopefully some long term users will have some good things to say as initially the reports were good. Maybe MacPac version of eVent is just not up to long use?

My Vista I love, and while not a fan of my mid weight eVent Montane for style and the seam sealing tape beginning to peel I can not fault the eVent material and it has been out a few times but no where as much as the Vista. As for the Montane Air jacket, I am stoked that for $135 I could get something so good. But been a bum freezer design you simply need to have pants. My eVent Rab pants are great as are the PP Goretex ones. Heck, even managed to venture out on the weekend with the Three Peak cheap and cheerful ones. They worked reasonably well but give me back my PP ones for the wet snow conditions.

Rab make a heavy weight eVent Alpine jacket that might be worth a look but I think that the cut is more rock climbing style. They do a light weight and tough version. The other standby is the MD Stratus when on special. It is Gore-tex peformance shell and tough as nails but some believe that the Pro-shell is worth the extra money. Pity the PP Vista is not still being made but it was not a cheap jacket with mine costing me $550 back in 2009.

MD of late also have a good reputation for checking out issues and in a 50:50 debate side with the customer to keep the peace. It was great to see on another thread that they came to the party for another person. I think that the issue was snow bibs or something like that.

O'well a few choices out there.

Cheers

[Explorer_Sam]

My jacket is the 'Epic Jacket' by Mountain Hardwear. I've only had it for a short while, but already it's seen some of the harshest weather and so far I've had no problems at all with it. I highly recommend it and it's great value for it's price. I bought it from Mountain Designs for $125 down from $250 and now you can buy it direct from the Mountain Hardwear website for $100.

Explorer_Sam.

[norts]

Update on my jacket saga
Cam(Macpac) has contacted me, I wont say anymore at this stage.
I have ordered a new jacket, a Montane Superfly XT.

Roger

[Ent]

Hi Norts

Hope that the new Montane Superfly works out and you can get a resolution to your Resolution jacket issue.

Cheers

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

Anyone tried a Golite Malpais?

http://www.golite.com/Ms-Malpais-Trinit ... -P905.aspx

I'm thinking of pulling the trigger for a 220g weight saving on my North Face, but not a real lot of information and reviews out there.

[wayno]

as mentioned earlier on this thread
it was one of the worst reviewed lightweight jackets on backpackinglight

you need a paid subscritptopn to see the full reviews
some of the better jackets

hagloffs ozo
rab pulse
outdoor research helium 2

[abmacus]

I had a MD Rain coat in the past thinking that Gortex was the way to go. I had no end of trouble with it including seams coming undone, zips breaking. To the local staff at MDs credit I eventually got it replaced. But I found it to be like a sauna and when walking got way to wet inside my jacket.( Its now my fishing raincoat. )
Last year after walking th Milford track with a friend, and getting soaked on the inside despite the freezing temps (in my MD jacket), I bit the bullet in Queenstown and lashed out on a Mac Pac Hollyford rain coat . It was on special. I did this for 2 reasons, the length of the jacket, my MD one was quite short and I though that maybe the Event would solve my internal saturation problem. Boy I was wrong.
When I walked the Routeburn and Kepler tracks, I still sweated like a madman.
I also walked 7 days on the Bib track last year with some mates. I ended up just wearing my merino top after becoming so wet on the inside that It made no difference with raincoat on or raincoat off.
I dont get this breathability thing. I can walk on a fine day and not sweat, for example my wife and I walk along the beach into town regularly. We would normally do this in an afternoon, walk briskly and not work up a sweat. However, today in rain, wind and cold, I walk into town, the exact same walk and it feels as though I am in a plastic bag. Before I am halfway (bout 2ks) I am soaked.
So the walk isnt any different apart from being colder, wetter and windier.
So are we actually being conned by this breathability thing.

[wayno]

the face fabric has to remain dry for the garment to keep breathing, thicker fabric reduces breathability further....
you don't realise how much moisture the body gives off until you're in a garment that doesnt breathe well...
air humidity and temperature affect breathability.

[abmacus]

so? Does that mean my raincoats is only breathable if its not raining?
Am I actually just as well off, if only walking tracks like the Bib or Cape to cape, purchasing a cheaper non breathable jacket and putting up with the condensation?

[Ent]

Hi

Yeap good point on breathability. We in Tassie tend to wear rain coats more as a windshield layer when cold and this helps as you are not too hot to begin with. I sweet like mad so expecting to be better due to magic material is rather hoping for too much.

It is not until I wear an impervious material that I realize as less than perfect eVent and Goretex is there are worst ways to travel.

Maybe a bit less marketing and more honesty is required so expectations on performance can be reasonable.

We see a $500 recommend retail price so naturally our expectations are high.

Good to see MD came to the party on a replacement but sadly it is still not the wonder jacket marketing hype would lead us to believe eVent and Gore-tex are. But they are a long way in front of other soncalled breathabile materials.

I have not yet experienced a jacket leaking so I wonder if quality standards have dropped.

Cheers

[wayno]

thats why DWR chemical treatment of the fabric is used to try and repel water from the face fabric and help it to run off. if the water can run off in the rain because of the dwr then it will breathe, if the water saturates the face fabric it can't breathe.
with time the dwr protection wears off and reproofing is needed by either spraying or washing the garment with a DWR solution.

[nakedape]

Well - I've just got back from the OT & can give some initial reports about the Macpac Prophet...

As hoped it kept the rain out. But, there is a definite tipping point whereby having the jacket on meant getting wetter than without it. The temps were up about 16c & my pack was heavy, so I was sweating pretty badly & the jacket just does not breathe (No it doesn't Cam). I looked fantastic with it on - but was better off at times walking in the rain without it.

Looks - thumbs up

Rain - thumbs up (so far)

Breathability - non existent.

N

[wayno]

Just got back from the Western Arthurs with my Kathmandu AmpatuPatronus Gore-Tex Active Shell. I must say I am mega-impressed, much better than anything I have had beforehand such as Macpac Hollyford Event. It is very light however and I put a small hole in the cuff during a close encounter with some of the abrasive rocks up there. Also the face protection is poor so for cold weather not so good.

the active shells are only designed as lightweight jackets,, they use thin fabrics, thats part of what gives them their better breathability over other gore tex membranes

[ULWalkingPhil]

G'day Norts,
I have a similar problem with a pack however the Owner of the the company is going out of his way to rectify this so I really think Macpac should be doing the same.
I am of the belief that as there was nothing wrong with my money I should expect the same with goods purchased and refund replace or fix.
corvus

I like this concept, next time I'm in store with a faulty product and not receiving the service I deserve, I'm going to ask them, was there anything wrong with the money I gave you?

[wayno]

Well - I've just got back from the OT & can give some initial reports about the Macpac Prophet...

As hoped it kept the rain out. But, there is a definite tipping point whereby having the jacket on meant getting wetter than without it. The temps were up about 16c & my pack was heavy, so I was sweating pretty badly & the jacket just does not breathe (No it doesn't Cam). I looked fantastic with it on - but was better off at times walking in the rain without it.

Looks - thumbs up

Rain - thumbs up (so far)

Breathability - non existent.

N

prophets were made for mountaineering, heavy fabric to resit abrasive rocks and ice,, the new version of the prophet is even heavier than the previous version, the heavy fabric also conspires against the high breathability of the event membrane,,,
backpackinglight did tests on jackets and the ones with the thinnest fabrics breathed the best, even in dry conditions the heavier fabrics could build up excess sweat regardless of the membrane,,

[nq111]

so? Does that mean my raincoats is only breathable if its not raining?
Am I actually just as well off, if only walking tracks like the Bib or Cape to cape, purchasing a cheaper non breathable jacket and putting up with the condensation?

No - well sort of.

When not raining any breathable jacket should breathe more or less to its engineered capacity.

When raining a breathable jacket with a maintained DWR finish should continue to breathe more or less to its engineered capacity.

When raining a breathable jacket with a failing DWR finish or that wets out for whatever reason will become like a non-breathable plastic bag. It should still not leak, but the loss of breathability means you can get real wet anyway.

So I guess in summary a waterproof breathable should always be as waterproof as any other alternative (e.g. a plastic coat). The breathability is more an extra or luxury that you can have so long as you maintain a water repellent finish.

[nakedape]

Well - I've just got back from the OT & can give some initial reports about the Macpac Prophet...

As hoped it kept the rain out. But, there is a definite tipping point whereby having the jacket on meant getting wetter than without it. The temps were up about 16c & my pack was heavy, so I was sweating pretty badly & the jacket just does not breathe (No it doesn't Cam). I looked fantastic with it on - but was better off at times walking in the rain without it.

Looks - thumbs up

Rain - thumbs up (so far)

Breathability - non existent.

N

prophets were made for mountaineering, heavy fabric to resit abrasive rocks and ice,, the new version of the prophet is even heavier than the previous version, the heavy fabric also conspires against the high breathability of the event membrane,,,
backpackinglight did tests on jackets and the ones with the thinnest fabrics breathed the best, even in dry conditions the heavier fabrics could build up excess sweat regardless of the membrane,,

No. It simply means that breathable fabrics are a load of toss. It also means that lab tests have no relevance to real world applications & marketing outguns design.