sleeping bags

[bluetongue]

After almost 35 years it is almost time to put my old faithful Paddy Pallin bag out to pasture. For the most part it, it has been a faithful companion in warmer climes but as a permanent move to the apple isle is imminent, I am in the market for something a bit warmer to suit my ageing bones. From reading various posts and comments, I am drawn to either the One Planet or the Macpac. Various US websites offer tempting deals but the issue of international restrictions on certain brands- unless a forwarding house is used puts me off a little- also postage costs of up to $70 needs to be factored in. I am particularly keen on the One Planet bags but the prices are a bit scary. Which leads me to the current Macpac winter catalogue. I'm aware of all the tricks of the trade e.g bumping the normal price up & then offering huge discounts- however- some of the prices of bags in the current offer are quite attractive and performance wise compare favourably with anything on offer from the U.S I am tossing up between
Sanctuary XP 600- 600 g of 8000 loft with a comfort rating of -4 and a limit of -11 for $ 431 OR
Sanctuary XP 800- 800 g of 800 loft with a comfort rating of -7 and a limit of -14 for ( i think ) abt 485
Given that most walking will be done in the non-winter months I'd welcome any member feedback on (a) choice of macpac as a brand (b) prior experience with either of these bags.e.g waterproofness and durability of outer fabric etc
I will be planning to walk in the WOJ area, Ben Lomond so am aware that 4 seasons can happen in one day. I am leaning a little to the 600 XP as,although getting a bit long in the tooth am still a reasonably warm sleeper and believe that I can get another 2 deg by putting another layer on along with a decent beanie and socks.
Any comments and advice welcome
Bluetongue

[wayno]

my understanding is xp is water resistant dwr type treatment.

[blacksheep]

Our XP fabric is Pertex Endurance. This shell adds quite a bit of efficiency to the bag...see http://www.pertex.com/
These are very nice bags indeed (ps- these bags were about $100 more 6 years ago than our current RRP, so these are a great deal)

[bluetongue]

An interesting aside looking at relativity of costs. I was just looking at an old Wild mag this a.m (1998) and see prices quoted for synthetic bags ranging from $120- $670 ( Marmot Valhalla) Most 3-4 season are in the 120- 230 group e.g a NZ fairydown abt $160. So- I guess it's fair to say when considering a modern down bag, the prices relative to 1998 are pretty schmick- given the increases in manufacturing; marketing and compliance with various legislations and govt charges etc etc

[Stew63]

Wouldn't have anything to do with the transfer of manufacturing to cheap labour in third world countries or China over the past ~15years?

[nq111]

A So- I guess it's fair to say when considering a modern down bag, the prices relative to 1998 are pretty schmick- given the increases in manufacturing; marketing and compliance with various legislations and govt charges etc etc

Yeah - i am consistently paying less even in nominal terms than in the early 1990s - and usually better quality too. My macpac sleeping bad in L size was nearly $1000 20yrs ago.

[roysta]

Try a Western Mountaineering bag, USA made and light.
The Ultralite is good for -7 and weighs just 850g.
I think Paddy Pallin in Sydney has them for about $485.
I have one and they're a good bag.

[Snowzone]

+1 for Western Mountaineering. Paddy's also do them in Australia by mail order.

[Toohp]

Loving my WM summerlight , if I had to choose again I'd go for the alpinelight or the Ultralight & just have the one bag , I have a Marmot Helium as well .

[RSD]

I had a look at the Western Mountaineering website but didn't see anything mentioned about the outer material and their waterproofness - does anyone have any information?

[Mountain Rocket]

I had a look at the Western Mountaineering website but didn't see anything mentioned about the outer material and their waterproofness - does anyone have any information?

There is some information on the fabrics used by WM here: http://www.westernmountaineering.com/in ... tentId=4#4

[RSD]

I had a look at the Western Mountaineering website but didn't see anything mentioned about the outer material and their waterproofness - does anyone have any information?

There is some information on the fabrics used by WM here: http://www.westernmountaineering.com/in ... tentId=4#4

Cheers for that - damned if I know how I missed seeing it!

[Ent]

Hi

I have a collection of WM bags. All three fabric layers shed water. The Goretex layer is the best but even though the material is waterproof the stitching means it is not a waterproof bag. Probably the standard offers the best compromise in cost, weight and water shedding ability.

I love the bags and proves that quality manufacturing can be done in high labour cost countries.

Only thing is make sure you understand the width as some models can be very cramped.

Cheers Brett

[wayno]

unless you're going to need it to be waterproof most of the time, get a bivy bag for waterproofness when you need it
there are bags that are fully waterproof exped make seam sealed down bags, the other option if you're bag is likely to get wet is getting a synthetic filled bag,, they are bigger and heavier than down but a lot more forgigving if water makes it into the filling and they dry a lot faster...

[RSD]

Only thing is make sure you understand the width as some models can be very cramped.

I'm looking at the Alpinlite model which shouldn't be too bad - I was going to get a Macpac Latitude 700XP but I can save 470 grams with the WM bag. There is an extra 165 grams of fill in the Macpac bag but I don't know where the other 300 grams of extra weight is. Both have similar dimensions, can't be absolutely certain on how the ratings compare as the WM bag doesn't have EN ratings like the Macpac one.

Waterproofness was probably the wrong word for me to use - I was mainly concerned about the bags having enough water resistance to be OK in a tent that has a condensation buildup - Tassie being the damp place that it is.

[blacksheep]

I'm looking at the Alpinlite model which shouldn't be too bad - I was going to get a Macpac Latitude 700XP but I can save 470 grams with the WM bag. There is an extra 165 grams of fill in the Macpac bag but I don't know where the other 300 grams of extra weight is. .

From a quick glance I'd attribute the extra weight on the Macpac bag to -
a)having an additional zipper across the box boot (so opened up fully whereas that WM has a long zip to mid shin) and
b) The more complex baffling mechanism on the macpac. The lattitude uses a radial baffling on the torso (which is much more effective in keeping down from sliding off the core), and trapeziodal baffles on lower half (and underside) . Both of down control methods use additional baffling material, so in turn adds some weight, but is more than offset by the down control these baffle designs provide compared to a simple boxwall baffles that it appears are used on that WM model. Hope that helps.

[nq111]

Waterproofness was probably the wrong word for me to use - I was mainly concerned about the bags having enough water resistance to be OK in a tent that has a condensation buildup - Tassie being the damp place that it is.

Yeah - i would rate breathability much more important. Don't get anything that sacrifices this for water resistance (e.g. membrain type shells). Easy enough to extra proof foot end with Grangers or something if the condensation is an issue.

[Ent]

Hi

WM have as mentioned three main fabric types. One Planet with their Cocoon series are impressive as well but the lack of the greater than 6' lengths thus was the no show for me.

EN ratings are a good guide but I believe WM have a few reasons for not using them. One is the high cost so if you make a massive range like WM your measurement cost is high. Having said that I believe that the standard allows for some extrapolation.

The next is WM like most older brands rated their bags to their own scale. The trouble is an old bag might have been labeled -10 but tested now to say -12. You are between the devil and the deep blue sea as your older customers might miss this and be shocked that the sol called -12 is no warmer than their older -10.

Finally down weight is meaningless without reference to loft. The higher the loft number the higher the warmth for any given weight. There are standards to rating loft but I believe countries varied at one stage. But assuming they are the same then WM bags use high lofting down. One rule of thumb I struck was cost of down doubles for every increase in grade. So a 850 loft down is supposedly four times as dear as 650 loft.

WM provide as does One Plant and impressive catalogue that gives good info.

I have a Versa-lite, Mega-lite and Badger in Goretex Dryloft. I can be a very hard person to please but extremely happy with WM. Unless you are sleeping in a snow cave the ultra light fabric should be ok. But in huts beware of sharp edges.

The sleeping bag is an item that weight savings can be significant so think long and hard before committing to a bag any heavier than it needs to be.

Cheers

[wayno]

bags without baffles dividing up long compartments can be an advantage, it enables you to move the down around if the main baffles run across the body, moving the down enables you to change the warmth of the sleeping bag by removing some of the down on top of the bag. lack of baffles also saves weight.

[RSD]

One question that I haven't asked - how do people who sleep on their sides find the sleeping bags with the big hoods? Is it an issue or not? I've never used sleeping bags before in temperatures where hoods are normally fitted to bags so I've no idea how well they will work for someone like me that sleeps on their side.

What temperature rating sleeping bags do people on here suggest for Tassie?

One problem with Western Mountaineering is that they don't have an email address on their site to enable you to contact them with queries

[tigercat]

I would say don't trust the temperature ratings, The 'comfort' ratings are exaggerated from my experience.

[blacksheep]

I would say don't trust the temperature ratings, The 'comfort' ratings are exaggerated from my experience.

If done to EN standard they will all be done to an equal measure. Once tested and certified to an equal standard there is no scope for exaggeration, just factual reporting. If comparing to a bag that is not EN tested you can always compare the spec to the most similar tested bag you can find and make a reasonable assumption I suppose...

[Moondog55]

I would say don't trust the temperature ratings, The 'comfort' ratings are exaggerated from my experience.

The comfort ratings are using some quite specific assumptions. If any of those automatic assumptions are not met then yes the comfort ratings will not be accurate, so if any of the following apply add or subtract a few or more degrees:- not using an adequate pad of the same rating as the test, tired, not well fed, suffering fatigue ( fatigue isn't the same as tired) have a cold or other infection, not acclimatised or otherwise unfit, not using a fully enclosed tent, being underweight for height, being much younger or older than the "Nominal" test subject.
The ratings do allow you to accurately compare different models with-in a range and different makers tho

[wayno]

the real effect of bag temperature ratings can vary from person to person... by up to 10C,
some people need warmer bags than the average person to stay warm in the same temperatures, others can get away with colder sleeping bags.
gender,, body shape (long limbed versus short limbed and or muscular), and body fat affect how much insulation you need in a sleeping bag compared to the ratings....
the harder your trip is physically the lower your heat output can end up at night.
age can affect tolerance to the cold.
aclimatisation to the cold will affect how warm a bag you need, I thought i was pretty hardened to the elements growing up tramping around wellington, my mate came back from living in student accommodation in dunedin and found no need to put anything more than a shirt on in a screaming southerly.

[Snowzone]

I have 3 bags I can compare on;
I love my WM Versalite, I fit into the 5'6bag and it weighs 850g and is extremely warm and cosy.
My OP Bushlite Super is also a great warm bag but is about 1.6kg. Way too heavy when compared with the WM bag.
Also have a Macpac latitude 700 that weighs in at 1.35kg. It is a comfortable bag but no where near as warm as the WM or OP bags.

I would suggest the WM bag shell has the least water resistency with the OP bag having the greatest.
Both the Macpac and the OP bags can be fully opened, a benefit if it is warm, where as the foot on the WM bag cannot be opened.

One question that I haven't asked - how do people who sleep on their sides find the sleeping bags with the big hoods? Is it an issue or not? I've never used sleeping bags before in temperatures where hoods are normally fitted to bags so I've no idea how well they will work for someone like me that sleeps on their side.

I sleep on my side but I dont tend to draw the hood tight. I would rather sleep with a beannie on.
Hope you find the bag thats right for you. Vicki

[Ent]

Hi

It is my understanding that the tests are conducted with the assumption that you sleep on your back. This means side sleepers might find some difference between two identically rated bags.

As mentioned even done to the best level of precision the test is only a guide to individuals for the reasons stated.

I am a side sleeper and rarely use the hood. In fact I tend to use a bag as a donna more often than not. But on nights near the bag's limit I do use the hood. Actually, a draft collar is a wonderful thing on those nights.

Trouble when buying a warm bag is you are likely to want to get out of its as quick as lightening in a warm shop so not have much a play with the features. I can say that there is for me a huge difference in convenience between a left and right handed bag.

Basically, better to get a bag a little warmer than what the specifications suggest.

Cheers

[RSD]

the real effect of bag temperature ratings can vary from person to person... by up to 10C,
some people need warmer bags than the average person to stay warm in the same temperatures, others can get away with colder sleeping bags.
gender,, body shape (long limbed versus short limbed and or muscular), and body fat affect how much insulation you need in a sleeping bag compared to the ratings....
the harder your trip is physically the lower your heat output can end up at night.
age can affect tolerance to the cold.
aclimatisation to the cold will affect how warm a bag you need, I thought i was pretty hardened to the elements growing up tramping around wellington, my mate came back from living in student accommodation in dunedin and found no need to put anything more than a shirt on in a screaming southerly.

Acclimatisation is something that we will suffer from - we both work outdoors in the Pilbara.

[RSD]

I have 3 bags I can compare on;
I love my WM Versalite, I fit into the 5'6bag and it weighs 850g and is extremely warm and cosy.
My OP Bushlite Super is also a great warm bag but is about 1.6kg. Way too heavy when compared with the WM bag.
Also have a Macpac latitude 700 that weighs in at 1.35kg. It is a comfortable bag but no where near as warm as the WM or OP bags.

I would suggest the WM bag shell has the least water resistency with the OP bag having the greatest.
Both the Macpac and the OP bags can be fully opened, a benefit if it is warm, where as the foot on the WM bag cannot be opened.

Many thanks for that - some great information there. I was originally looking at the Macpac Latitude 700XP but the WM bags are significantly lighter and there is potential to get a warmer WM bag like the Versalite that is still lighter than the Latitude - but I do like the idea of the footzip in the Latitude - would be nice to have that open on slightly warmer nights.

I sleep on my side but I dont tend to draw the hood tight. I would rather sleep with a beannie on.
Hope you find the bag thats right for you. Vicki

Cheers for that - I think the beanie might be better for me too rather than turning on my side and suffocating inside the hood.

[nq111]

Cheers for that - I think the beanie might be better for me too rather than turning on my side and suffocating inside the hood.

Or get something with a properly contoured hood etc. http://marmot.com/products/plasma_15

[RSD]

Cheers for that - I think the beanie might be better for me too rather than turning on my side and suffocating inside the hood.

Or get something with a properly contoured hood etc. http://marmot.com/products/plasma_15

Not sure how well that would work if you was sleeping on your side - there would certainly be a greater chance of breathing in a higher level of expired CO2 which could slowly snuffocate you.