Bushwalk Australia

I've got some 30 years of hiking under my belt, however the one thing that I have never done, and am developing a serious appetite for, is some winter trekking, as such, I'm slightly oblivious when it comes to some gear. Thinking of a trip to Feathertop this winter coming to see if it is really for me or not.

At the moment, I'm in the process of replacing much of my gear after a break from hiking, have replaced my sleeping bag (for Summer hiking), tent, stove, and a ton more, however I've been of the idea that I will just get a separate winter and summer bag.

The bag that I just picked up is the Marmot Helium (http://marmot.com/products/helium_reg?p=117), a really great lightweight down bag, rated for comfort at -9 degrees, and a damn warm bag to boot. I chose this one as I had been caught out a few times in my VERY old synthetic bag a few times, and wanted to overshoot the mark a little for warmth plus get a bag that helps me travel as light as possible.

So, here's my question. I'm a fairly warm sleeper, I sleep with the blankets off more than I do with them on. With as limited snow hiking experience as I have, would this bag be suitable, if used with a good liner and sleeping mat (I use a Thermarest Neo Air All Season), or would it be a safer bet for me to look into a bag with a higher fill weight?

G'day Ryan

Good questions, and big ones too. I'm sure you could scour the internet forums for hours of reading on these questions.

I have a Helium, and am a relatively warm sleeper also...with cold feet. I find the Helium well and truly warm enough for me in cold Vic alps winters...and NZ shoulder season/winter too. I always sleep with thermals on...not for warmth, but to protect my bag a little...I hate liners. Liners, to me, add no warmth (and I have tried all sorts), and simply add a layer of unnecessary complexity to getting in and out of my bag etc.

I also sleep with my NeoAir...just the original, regular one. This combo keeps me more than warm enough on snow. Rather than buy a heavier fill bag, try what you have on an overnighter to gauge how you go first. Perhaps you could slip your insulation jacket on too if you start to chill. There are so many ways to ensure your warmth at night, so make sure you tick all of those boxes too, such as (to name only a few):

1. ensure you're hydrated
2. well fed
3. Your body is dry
4. Your down is lofting
5. You get in your bag warm...not cold
6. keep your neck and head covered and warm
7. try a table spoon of peanut butter before sleep (or oils, fats etc.)
8. keep your tent well ventilated...Australian 'cool wet' conditions make for wet conditions indeed, which may effect the lofting of your bag (along with insensible moisture loss).
9. keep your feet and hands warm (socks or liner gloves if needed)
10. learn to USE your sleeping bag...such as cinch the draw-cord hood closure as small as you can if your face gets cold! I often sleep with just my nose poking out sometimes...this makes a MASSIVE difference. Otherwise, what's the point of having a hood closure? Plus, the Marmot hood closure is very well constructed.
etc. etc.

So, I'd try that first...remember, you can always put ALL of your layers on if you need to. You'll be surprised just how much warmer you are when you sleep in all your layers...including your rain shell!

Your two big ticket items for warmth (your NeoAir All Season & Helium) are pretty well covered....in my opinion.


Jase

Thanks for the reply Jase.

Having bought my bag from the US, and being classified as a 3 season bag in the US, its hard to know how that would perform here where our winter average temps are much lower.

I will probably head up to Federation Hut this winter to give it a trial run, and made adjustments from there. They say that there is a huge amount to learn about Winter hiking, not just about gear, but those little things like how eating right will keep you warm, and so on, and you learn most of it from DOING rather than being taught by someone else. I'll definitely keep that in mind with wearing thermals though, as the idea of using a sleeping bag liner does seem somewhat awkward.

Thanks again!

Hey Ryan

You're right...there is heaps to learn. It's also about managing logistics...whether you're melting snow for water, or stomping out a tent platform, there is always something to do when winter hiking...especially if the weather turns nasty (which makes it even more fun if you're prepared....although sometimes it turns out more like 'type 2 fun'). I appreciate these 'fun' categories.

type 1 fun: fun to do, fun to think about & reflect upon after
type 2 fun: not fun to do, fun to think about & reflect upon after
type 3 fun: not fun before or after...period.

Knowing what season the bag is is a good start for sure, but learning about fill weights, bag shapes, shell materials, how warm you sleep (in varying climates), differing warmth ratings between manufacturers and countries etc. and how all of these influence bag warmth is even better when researching gear in the future. And like you said, DOING all that stuff to stay safe and warm (which is what makes it fun) is best achieved by getting out there.

The thermals thing is my preference, I am sure others prefer to sleep in liners. When I go ultralight, I often use a 0 degree bag and sleep in my down jacket and all my clothes and shell to boost my bag rating whilst keeping my weight down. It simply takes some playing around for what suits you.

Anyways, have fun with it all! Chat soon.
Jase

I like your "Fun" classifications, Quicky. Pretty spot on for me. I think many of my hikes are Type 2s, so I should work on that.

Ryan, it sounds like you've thought it through pretty well. From my understanding the Helium is a pretty sweet bag, especially coupled with the All Season. I generally head out to Fed Hut once or twice a year (not always in winter but mostly either in winter or early spring/late autumn) and relatively recently I've been finding that both my old down Paddy Pallin (not sure the rating, maybe -5) and a synthetic Snowgum (-3) have been struggling to keep me warm. So I've gotten a Western Mountaineering Antelope (-15) last month that I'll try next year. I think that I'll be fine and I'd think the same for you. Heartily recommend using Fed Hut as the Feathertop trial to get everything right. Most things are pretty similar except that the weather is wilder and the packs are heavier.

quicky wrote:
Anyways, have fun with it all! Chat soon.
Jase

Will be sure to report about the trip in here when it happens either way, thanks for your help!

Kinsayder wrote:Ryan, it sounds like you've thought it through pretty well. From my understanding the Helium is a pretty sweet bag, especially coupled with the All Season. I generally head out to Fed Hut once or twice a year (not always in winter but mostly either in winter or early spring/late autumn) and relatively recently I've been finding that both my old down Paddy Pallin (not sure the rating, maybe -5) and a synthetic Snowgum (-3) have been struggling to keep me warm. So I've gotten a Western Mountaineering Antelope (-15) last month that I'll try next year. I think that I'll be fine and I'd think the same for you. Heartily recommend using Fed Hut as the Feathertop trial to get everything right. Most things are pretty similar except that the weather is wilder and the packs are heavier.

It was either going to be Federation Hut or Bogong (have day tripped up Bogong in the snow a few years ago), but settled on Feathertop, as it seems like a great place to experience the basic things that most people dont think about on their first trip, like melting snow, how to peg your tent down in a few ft of snow, and so on.

Either way, cant wait!

Another good option for testing out gear or experience in snow is Stirling. Closer to Melbourne than Feathertop or Bogong, and still plenty of opportunity to get away from the crowds.

iGBH wrote:Another good option for testing out gear or experience in snow is Stirling. Closer to Melbourne than Feathertop or Bogong, and still plenty of opportunity to get away from the crowds.

This is true, and will probably look at getting up there one of these days. Actually long overdue for a trip into that neck of the woods.

Hi ryantmalone,

Nice choice of bag!

A personally think that weight will be fine - particularly if you are carrying a few extra clothes (e.g. a light down jacket) for the odd occasion things get really cold. But you may vary. A warm winter tent will give you considerable warmth as well.

Otherwise (and I must sound like a broken record on this topic!) I suggest researching and looking into a vapour barrier liner. Even an SOL emergency bivy costs very little, weighs 80g, doubles as a space blanket / emergency bivy, and will add the most warmth for weight when used inside your sleeping bag. If you are feeling rich - go straight for a Western Mountaineering Hotsac VBL.

Excellent article on the topic here http://andrewskurka.com/how-to/vapor-barrier-liners-theory-application/

ryantmalone wrote:TThey say that there is a huge amount to learn about Winter hiking, not just about gear, but those little things like how eating right will keep you warm, and so on, and you learn most of it from DOING rather than being taught by someone else.

Yeah - there is also heaps of good info about to research and you have the right approach - you ultimately need to prove it up for yourself.

As an aside, there is tons of good info on cold weather hiking but a bugbear of mine is that there is virtually nothing of depth on hot-weather hiking .

Have you used VBL in Australia nq? I thought it was only good for Really cold weather? Iv'e slept in my (breathable) wet weather gear (inside a sleeping bag) and have been warm, dry (dried out), pretty comfortable but it was perhaps minus 8/9c. I'd imagine sweating if much warmer.

Just to say I did see a breathable emergency bivy range, maybe it was SOL, one of those US brands..

I have that bag, without help I would imagine a 'real' rating of -4/5c.. This has been the conclusion for others iv'e been with (using them) (iv'e actually had people feel cold in +ve temperatures, most likely not using the bag to it's best, cold sleeping smaller people) The ratings really are a stab in the dark (or how people relate to the ratings at least) Really nice, well thought out designs the Marmot bags, iv'e used my Helium with a light down clothing layer (perhaps abt the same.. -8/9) for a few nights and been ok, was likely pretty exhausted which I always find need more insulation (and get cold very quickly even though generally a warm sleeper). In short, i would be taking sort of additional insulation if expecting less than -4/5c even if a warm sleeper. As it can get much colder than that (up there), more down would be a safer bet, I'd say quicky is an unusual case

Nuts wrote:Have you used VBL in Australia nq?

Yes.

Experimented up to 8oc (just to see). Works great from me from about 0oc and lower. Major benefit is moisture management over several nights. But it appears everyone is a bit different how they handle it.

I am from the tropics so the humidity is just like home

But for a situation with a bag which looks like it is definitely good to -5oc or -10oc the VPL is a perfect solution if you can caught out in -15oc or so on a freak cold night.

I would say VBL is useful from about zero or less, essential if really cold or on long cool trips with no chance to dry the sleeping bag.

Ok, yes, probably demonstrates how different we all are
I like the sound of that setup though... bag to -5 (or so), VBL for anything colder.
Not getting as cold (here) I guess a bivy bag slows the heat loss enough.

Better explanation http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/camp12.htm

Also you want the non-breathable SOL for a VBL.

nq111 wrote:Hi ryantmalone,

Nice choice of bag!

A personally think that weight will be fine - particularly if you are carrying a few extra clothes (e.g. a light down jacket) for the odd occasion things get really cold. But you may vary. A warm winter tent will give you considerable warmth as well.

Otherwise (and I must sound like a broken record on this topic!) I suggest researching and looking into a vapour barrier liner. Even an SOL emergency bivy costs very little, weighs 80g, doubles as a space blanket / emergency bivy, and will add the most warmth for weight when used inside your sleeping bag. If you are feeling rich - go straight for a Western Mountaineering Hotsac VBL.

Excellent article on the topic here http://andrewskurka.com/how-to/vapor-barrier-liners-theory-application/

Nice advice nq, sounds like a great idea to check out. I've had a few very cold nights before, one most notably where I had a 0 degree bag and was caught a few under at the top of Helicopter Spur. That was a damn cold night, and sounds like a VBL would be a good safety measure.

I'm also going to look into a second tent as well. Currently using a North Face Tadpole 23, hardly suitable for Winter, but awesome for summer. Have my eye on a Vango Vortex 200 for a winter tent, but that's a different story for a different thread.

quicky wrote:
1. ensure you're hydrated
2. well fed
3. Your body is dry
4. Your down is lofting
5. You get in your bag warm...not cold
6. keep your neck and head covered and warm
7. try a table spoon of peanut butter before sleep (or oils, fats etc.)
8. keep your tent well ventilated...Australian 'cool wet' conditions make for wet conditions indeed, which may effect the lofting of your bag (along with insensible moisture loss).
9. keep your feet and hands warm (socks or liner gloves if needed)
10. learn to USE your sleeping bag...such as cinch the draw-cord hood closure as small as you can if your face gets cold! I often sleep with just my nose poking out sometimes...this makes a MASSIVE difference. Otherwise, what's the point of having a hood closure? Plus, the Marmot hood closure is very well constructed.
etc. etc.

Nice list Quicky.

One easy way to add warmth is to boil water in the evening, and create your own hot water bottle.

I often think that the place to start for staying warm is not so much the sleeping bag, but in having enough insulation below you in the form of a mat. Doubling up your existing mat with a CCF can be a simple and cheap way to increase the R value in cold conditions.

madmacca wrote:
One easy way to add warmth is to boil water in the evening, and create your own hot water bottle.

I often think that the place to start for staying warm is not so much the sleeping bag, but in having enough insulation below you in the form of a mat. Doubling up your existing mat with a CCF can be a simple and cheap way to increase the R value in cold conditions.

I've heard about people doing this. Filling up a Nalgene with some hot water (permitting the bottle stands up to the heat!), wrapping it in a towel, and placing in the foot box.

As for insulation, I've heard of people using a foam mat under their Thermarest, or a space blanket. I'd probably carry a space blanket anyway as a safety measure.

Adding extra insulation below you ( even as said the cheapest CCF mat ) is always worthwhile.
As a technical challenge wearing your insulative clothing inside your existing bag means choosing a bag big enough to allow it to loft fully, so if the bag you choose is tight fitting you won't be able to wear all of your layers efficiently.

ryantmalone wrote:

madmacca wrote:
One easy way to add warmth is to boil water in the evening, and create your own hot water bottle.

I often think that the place to start for staying warm is not so much the sleeping bag, but in having enough insulation below you in the form of a mat. Doubling up your existing mat with a CCF can be a simple and cheap way to increase the R value in cold conditions.

I've heard about people doing this. Filling up a Nalgene with some hot water (permitting the bottle stands up to the heat!), wrapping it in a towel, and placing in the foot box.

As for insulation, I've heard of people using a foam mat under their Thermarest, or a space blanket. I'd probably carry a space blanket anyway as a safety measure.

I used to use a Nalgene as a hot water bottle...it works wonders (for me anyway, I tend to suffer cold feet)...and is really good for drying wet socks too (by placing your sock/s over the Nalgene like a condom). Another really effective place for a Nalgene/hot water bottle is up high in your thighs - the transfer of heat through to your femoral artery and lesser vasculature can be more effective, as it takes warmer blood to your feet and legs rather than trying to warm your feet up alone.

As for the insulation, using Space Blankets opens another pandoras box of interesting conversation. Remember, space blankets only 'do their best' to somewhat reduce radiant heat loss...and that is it! Yet practically, convectional and conductive heat loss play a much bigger part 'during times of physiological stress' (evaporative...not much at all in colder climates). So, if used correctly, they can be 'in part' helpful. If not used correctly, they make matters much worse by rapidly accelerating conductive heat loss. When teaching (pre-hospital science/paramedic practice, wilderness medicine), I really stress the importance of using space blankets wisely and appropriately, otherwise, they can really make matters worse....I've seen it many times. I often laugh (cringe for the patient's sake) at those shots you see on the news how people are plucked from overflowing rivers during floods...they are soaked to the core, still have their clothes on, and have a space blanket thrown around them by the paramedics or emergency staff on scene...very bad form (an extreme example, but you get my point).

I personally wouldn't bother with a space blanket under a thermarest, especially the newer NeoAir's. No doubt others prefer to, and I appreciate that. Considering the material used in the NeoAir (or even other Thermarests for that matter), it would only be doubling up on the mat's 'purpose' anyways. The dew point would be close to the under side (or even inside) of the Thermarest where the space blanket is sitting, so its ability to 'bounce back' radiant heat would be next to nothing (IMO).... by that stage there would be nothing to 'bounce back', so it becomes superfluous. I don't carry a space blanket, or see the need for one 99% of the time. But like I said, that's a whooooole new conversation in itself with heaps of other info along with it, and subject to personal preference.

....just sayin.

Enjoy.

quicky wrote:
I used to use a Nalgene as a hot water bottle...it works wonders (for me anyway, I tend to suffer cold feet)...and is really good for drying wet socks too (by placing your sock/s over the Nalgene like a condom). Another really effective place for a Nalgene/hot water bottle is up high in your thighs - the transfer of heat through to your femoral artery and lesser vasculature can be more effective, as it takes warmer blood to your feet and legs rather than trying to warm your feet up alone.

That's actually a pretty good idea. Never thought of that. I'll remember that next time I'm caught out in the cold!

quicky wrote:
As for the insulation, using Space Blankets opens another pandoras box of interesting conversation. Remember, space blankets only 'do their best' to somewhat reduce radiant heat loss...and that is it! Yet practically, convectional and conductive heat loss play a much bigger part 'during times of physiological stress' (evaporative...not much at all in colder climates). So, if used correctly, they can be 'in part' helpful. If not used correctly, they make matters much worse by rapidly accelerating conductive heat loss. When teaching (pre-hospital science/paramedic practice, wilderness medicine), I really stress the importance of using space blankets wisely and appropriately, otherwise, they can really make matters worse....I've seen it many times. I often laugh (cringe for the patient's sake) at those shots you see on the news how people are plucked from overflowing rivers during floods...they are soaked to the core, still have their clothes on, and have a space blanket thrown around them by the paramedics or emergency staff on scene...very bad form.

I personally wouldn't bother with a space blanket under a thermarest, especially the newer NeoAir's. No doubt others prefer to, and I appreciate that. Considering the material used in the NeoAir (or even other Thermarests for that matter), it would only be doubling up on the mat's 'purpose' anyways. The dew point would be close to the under side (or even inside) of the Thermarest where the space blanket is sitting, so its ability to 'bounce back' radiant heat would be next to nothing (IMO).... by that stage there would be nothing to 'bounce back', so it becomes superfluous. I don't carry a space blanket, or see the need for one 99% of the time. But like I said, that's a whooooole new conversation in itself with heaps of other info along with it, and subject to personal preference.

....just sayin.

Enjoy.

I've given some thought to using a Z-Lite under my Thermarest if it came down to it. Heard many people use this along with a -10 bag and liner plus thermals to get through some pretty far out conditions far exceeding the capabilities of their bags. Not that I think I would need to be able to sit out conditions in the sub 20's, but for comforts sake, it'd be good to remember trips as being "comfortable" rather than "a little colder than I'd like"

Just had a look at the specs of that bag, they look good to me.
It should have 19oz of down, in comparison my WM Ultralite (rated -7) has 16 so the -9 rating all things equal sounds right.
I have only had temps to -7 or so, here in Victoria , and now I use a Summerlite (a 0 bag) with light puffy pants and jacket on top of my merino first layer.
With a wool hat,gloves and loose socks that works well for me so IF by any chance you are cold ,yes don't forget that you have some clothing with you.
The most important part is not to sweat, that is during the day as well as at night.
Hint :if you sweat and don't have a fever it is because you are too hot regardless of the fact that your brain tells you that snow is cold...
Make sure also that you don't get into the sack cold. So don't hang around till you shiver .
That is the commonest mistake.
Folk get into the sack cold, pile their clothing on ans seal themselves up, start to sweat , vent ,then they are cold inside a damp/wet bag/clothing...
A thin solid mat to top up your Thermarest could be a good idea.

I've given some thought to using a Z-Lite under my Thermarest if it came down to it. Heard many people use this along with a -10 bag and liner plus thermals to get through some pretty far out conditions far exceeding the capabilities of their bags. Not that I think I would need to be able to sit out conditions in the sub 20's, but for comforts sake, it'd be good to remember trips as being "comfortable" rather than "a little colder than I'd like"

I wouldn't fret...I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I remember using mine on its maiden winter night and thought how comfortable and toasty I was...and nothing has changed in 4 years. Perhaps take a secondary mat, or even just a cheap kmart camping mat (they do actually work, however far from durable...but will help you save cash outlay while you're figuring it all out) with the intention of NOT using it to start with... then build up from there (IMO). Like Franco said, it has oodles of down (irrespective of its temp rating). I'm always warm in mine, and would find it easy to overheat & sweat if I wanted to. Personally, I wouldn't take a second mat at all. Worst case scenario...you stay a little cold and don't feel quite as rested the next day (that's ok, start with an overnighter or something), move into a hut, put on layers (including your insulation jacket), do some starjumps (returning to your bag warm), or get up and have a hot drink of water and admire the winter night sky for 10 mins....or something etc....or you could always spoon your mate! ha.

I have no idea whether this bag is enough for the conditions you're interested in. There are too many variables. But one thing I don't get is the requirement of ensuring you're not dehydrated, you're well fed, not tired, etc. And no sweating allowed? Wow. I fail on every single winter trip I've been on as I'm usually sweating much of the time and I'm knackered and a bit dehydrated at the end of every day.

So a few extra ounces in the bag is okay with me. Down is light. But ultimately, what works for you is the key thing.

Orion wrote:I have no idea whether this bag is enough for the conditions you're interested in. There are too many variables. But one thing I don't get is the requirement of ensuring you're not dehydrated, you're well fed, not tired, etc. And no sweating allowed? Wow. I fail on every single winter trip I've been on as I'm usually sweating much of the time and I'm knackered and a bit dehydrated at the end of every day.

Sounds to me as though you totally get it Orion! You say there are "too many variables" - case in point. Short of actually using the bag, everyone is simply pointing out and expanding on the importance of those "variables" you draw attention to, and how they can influence sleeping warmth. The process behind the conversations is about attempting to reduce the concern to a single point variable - that being the bag, to help determine if that bag is suitable, after ensuring that Ryan has done his best to minimise the influence of those other "variables". After all, figuring out if the bag is right for him was the OP's opening question.

If it must be put in those words, I must 'fail' on every trip too - I often go to bed knackered etc., but I know my limits. The 'requirements' would be better served as considerations and key influences of his sleeping comfort and overall safety, through a whole-systems perspective, as those requirements link into other concepts too. But as the OP stated, he has yet to try out winter hiking in a new sleeping bag, so I guess this thread is all about knowledge exchange...and sharing the love.

Orion wrote:But one thing I don't get is the requirement of ensuring you're not dehydrated, you're well fed, not tired, etc.

With the little that I know about nutrition, and how our body works to digest food, some food types actually burn more energy than others in order for your body to digest, which could in turn keep your body warmer in the sack.

For example, why larger people sweat when they eat.

Generally before bed when I'm hiking, I'll have some soup or something similar, and that always gets me to bed nice and warm.

Whats more likely to keep your body warm is a balanced diet with enough of all the essential nutrients for your body to generate enough energy to keep warm
your body may burn more energy to digest some foods only because they take longer to digest... ie like fat or protein.

Orion wrote:I have no idea whether this bag is enough for the conditions you're interested in. There are too many variables. But one thing I don't get is the requirement of ensuring you're not dehydrated, you're well fed, not tired, etc. And no sweating allowed? Wow. I fail on every single winter trip I've been on as I'm usually sweating much of the time and I'm knackered and a bit dehydrated at the end of every day.

So a few extra ounces in the bag is okay with me. Down is light. But ultimately, what works for you is the key thing.

Down is light and warm, because it traps a lot of air in its loft. But when it gets wet, it loses most of its structure and loft (and thus also its warmth). So it is essential to keep your bag dry. Even if no external moisture gets on your bag, moisture from sweat can accumulate and significantly degrade the performance of your bag on a multi-day trip. It's normal to be tired, sweaty and dehydrated at the end of the day (heck, I'd say the first two are the hallmarks of a GOOD trip, not failure). The key is to fix these things before getting in your sleeping bag.

As for well-fed, well, digestion releases energy (and heat into the body). Also, if you are low on energy, the body starts to conserve what it's still got - but in the interests of staying warm, you want to be expending energy, not conserving it. Also, low energy and exhaustion can lead to hypothermia, and poor decision making (and this gets into a vicious circle). In such conditions even experienced skiers/walkers can make poor decisions - and poor decision making in the snow can be lethal.

quicky wrote:[The process behind the conversations is about attempting to reduce the concern to a single point variable - that being the bag, to help determine if that bag is suitable, after ensuring that Ryan has done his best to minimise the influence of those other "variables".

So why choose only the best case values for those other variables? That seems to promise more cold nights than warm ones.

madmacca wrote:Down is light and warm, because it traps a lot of air in its loft. But when it gets wet, it loses most of its structure and loft (and thus also its warmth). So it is essential to keep your bag dry. Even if no external moisture gets on your bag, moisture from sweat can accumulate and significantly degrade the performance of your bag on a multi-day trip. It's normal to be tired, sweaty and dehydrated at the end of the day (heck, I'd say the first two are the hallmarks of a GOOD trip, not failure). The key is to fix these things before getting in your sleeping bag.

As for well-fed, well, digestion releases energy (and heat into the body). Also, if you are low on energy, the body starts to conserve what it's still got - but in the interests of staying warm, you want to be expending energy, not conserving it. Also, low energy and exhaustion can lead to hypothermia, and poor decision making (and this gets into a vicious circle). In such conditions even experienced skiers/walkers can make poor decisions - and poor decision making in the snow can be lethal.

In my experience it isn't alway feasible to keep the bag perfectly dry. Unless you use a vapor barrier, moisture from your body will get into the bag at night. If the air is warm and dry it evaporates easily in the morning, but in wet and cool conditions the bag will accumulate moisture. Sunless days of sloppy snowfall virtually guarantee a bag that gets heavier and less effective over time. And despite being careful, low energy and exhaustion are possibilities. Plans can go awry.

For me these are reasons to start off with a little extra insulation in the winter.

But that's not to suggest that the Helium is the wrong bag for Ryan.

Orion wrote:In my experience it isn't alway feasible to keep the bag perfectly dry. Unless you use a vapor barrier, moisture from your body will get into the bag at night. If the air is warm and dry it evaporates easily in the morning, but in wet and cool conditions the bag will accumulate moisture. Sunless days of sloppy snowfall virtually guarantee a bag that gets heavier and less effective over time. And despite being careful, low energy and exhaustion are possibilities. Plans can go awry.

For me these are reasons to start off with a little extra insulation in the winter.

But that's not to suggest that the Helium is the wrong bag for Ryan.

If there's one thing I've learned in my life, when going hiking, plan for the worst. I'd be inclined to carry a vapor liner regardless, even if it is being overly careful, its a measure that I would take regardless.

As for the Helium being the right or wrong bag, I suppose there's only one way to test it, right?