Bushwalk Australia

I thought this review/blog post on a Hilleberg Kaitum 3GT tent and Hilleberg customer service might be of interest. I appreciate this is written from a cycle tourist perspective and so the usage is much more than you would expect from a bushwalker but then Hilleberg do suggest this is a tent for bicycle tourers ...

From excepts from the blog posting ...

Shannon wrote to us stressing the importance of cleaning the tent zippers every day. She didn’t seem too impressed with how we’d been looking after our tent. To be fair, we’d done our best to keep it clean given the resources we had while on the road. I’d been cleaned the zippers with a toothbrush as often as I could – about once/twice a week. Shannon wrote:

“I know it is hard for you to understand the need to clean your zippers but the tent has been well used and the outer zippers had fuzz and dust in them. I cleaned up the edge of the flap covering the zippers so that should help a bit. Maintenance is as important for your tent as it is for your bike or a new car. It really helps to keep everything working well. We do recommend that you daily brush out your zippers.”

During the next few months touring in New Zealand we made special efforts to treat the tent with kid gloves and follow Shannon’s care instructions to the letter. The tent got a good old wash in a bucket before we flew Down Under, and a regular – almost daily – tooth-brush of all the zippers on its entrances.

Given what had gone before, we had much less confidence in the tent entrances, and used the zippers as gingerly as possible.

But, despite careful handling and cleaning, the zippers failed again. In November 2012, while camping in Wellington awaiting our ferry to the South Island of New Zealand, the zipper on the outer side door broke again, the teeth gaping open once the slider had been pulled across. It was only the fourth or fifth time we’d used that side door since Hilleberg had replaced the sliders. We took the frustrating decision to keep that door permanently closed.

Hillebergs side entrance zipper brokenAt the same time, the zipper on the front outer entrance started to fail again. The teeth of the zipper would refuse to close once the slider had passed. It took such effort to keep the thing closed that we eventually gave up and so – for about three months’ camping – we kept the entrance permanently tied back and open to the elements… and to the local wildlife.

I suppose it is testament to the quality and strength of the tent material that, while camping on New Year’s Eve 2012 at the foot of Mount Cook, New Zealand, we managed – just – to withstand a horrendous storm with the entrance with its broken front zipper permanently tied open. That was a scary night, and not something we’d like to experience again.

The Hilleberg zipper problem is one that others have suffered. We heard first-hand accounts from other cycle tourers about their zippers failing, often quite early in the tent’s life. Of the five other Hilleberg tents we came across during our travels in North and South America, New Zealand and Australia, three had suffered severe zipper failures. In Tasmania we met Robert and Sabine from Germany, who’d had to fasten the outer entrance of their Nallo 2 with clothes pegs when their zipper failed. They were making a special trip out of their way to have the whole thing replaced. In Patagonia we met Sarah and her husband, also from Germany, who sewed their own tents and backpacks and had constructed a super-duper tent with a bespoke extension using the fabric from their old Hilleberg Nallo. An experienced seamstress, Sarah singled out the Hilleberg zippers for particular criticism, saying they were the weakest tent zippers she’d come across. Also in Patagonia we met Nicolas and his cycle touring family from Switzerland. All four of them were living in their 4-person Hilleberg and their zipper failed after just three months’ use. In fact, as soon as we met other Hilleberg users – mainly very experienced mountaineers and cycle tourers – the conversation turned immediately to the poor quality of the zippers, and how they’d never had such problems with other tents.

Online we came across several other incidents of Hilleberg zipper failure, for example Guy and Frederike of A Bike Journey, Linda’s comments on our blog post, and here on Lonely Planet’s Thorn Tree Forum.

The blog posting can be found at http://www.woollypigs.com/2013/05/revie ... ail-again/

Andrew

Hilleberg uses YKK zippers.
How would a YKK zipper know it was in a Hilleberg tent?

Maybe they pitch it too tight & put too much strain on the zipper, just a thought.
Mine have been good.
One problem I have had is when undoing the outer, the flap will often get caught in the zip.
Hasn't weakened the zip though, and you just have to learn where you need to hold things so you can undo it to be sure the zipper doesn't get caught - not a big deal.
Never cleaned my zippers, by the way.
Never seen the need - they don't get grimed up.
Did they lube them with vaseline or something? That would certainly attract more grime to them.

Just seems to me there may be a factor other than the tent involved.

Orion wrote:Hilleberg uses YKK zippers.
How would a YKK zipper know it was in a Hilleberg tent?

As the blogger alludes to .... the issue is maybe the choice of zipper size and/or type and suitability for the task in Hillberg tents or some models anyway. It appears given the post and references to others, that is an issue with Hilleberg tents and hence the choice of zipper type/size.

Personally if I am paying around $1,000 for a tent (price on Hillberg website), I don't care what brand of zipper it is, what I care about is that the tent is of the highest quality and up to the task it is marketed for and that if something happens the manufacturer will stand by the product. Maybe that is unreasonable, but to me Hillberg don't seem to be doing the right thing here.

Suggesting daily cleaning of a zipper? Seriously do you do that? Better start if you have a YKK zipper then or a Hillberg tent for that matter

Andrew

The zippers on my anjan certainly look very robust. My initial impression was that they were oversized and unnecessarily heavy.

A big problem, that I have seen with inexperienced users of hilleberg tents, is letting the flap/door lie in the dirt and walking on it. Very annoying.

Miyata610 wrote:A big problem, that I have seen with inexperienced users of hilleberg tents, is letting the flap/door lie in the dirt and walking on it. Very annoying.

But you wouldn't do that with any tent surely? Walk on it, I mean. Particularly if it is lying in the dirt.

The story as recounted in the blog seems a bit unusual. What item on a tent produces fluff?

I've read more of their blog. Interesting.

Here's a pic from it......

Nice to see they treat their tent with proper care and attention.

Aushiker wrote:As the blogger alludes to .... the issue is maybe the choice of zipper size and/or type and suitability for the task in Hillberg tents or some models anyway. It appears given the post and references to others, that is an issue with Hilleberg tents and hence the choice of zipper type/size.

Personally if I am paying around $1,000 for a tent (price on Hillberg website), I don't care what brand of zipper it is, what I care about is that the tent is of the highest quality and up to the task it is marketed for and that if something happens the manufacturer will stand by the product. Maybe that is unreasonable, but to me Hillberg don't seem to be doing the right thing here.

Suggesting daily cleaning of a zipper? Seriously do you do that? Better start if you have a YKK zipper then or a Hillberg tent for that matter

The type they use is YKK standard coil, the best available as far as I'm aware. The size varies with the tent. The Kaitum is in the same class as the Nallo, which I own, and the zippers look like #5 to me. That's the right size in my estimation. The next heavier zipper would be overkill for for most people.

No, I don't clean them daily. But I have cleaned and lubricated zippers frequently when camping in the desert where wind-driven silty sand was common. Those zippers failed early despite the extra care. Zippers are an especially vulnerable part of a tent. It's the #1 thing that wears out in tents in my experience.

So what does "highest quality" mean? If you want to emphasize durability over everything else the tent will be heavier. There's a tradeoff. Who would buy a Kaitum if it had #10 zippers?

Miyata610 wrote:I've read more of their blog. Interesting.

Here's a pic from it......

Now that's something I've never done with a $1000 tent.

I was going to ask how you identify zip size.... But a close examination of my anjan slider has 5 NO on it. Could this mean a size number five?

Miyata610 wrote:I was going to ask how you identify zip size.... But a close examination of my anjan slider has 5 NO on it. Could this mean a size number five?

I was just going by size, comparing them as I have YKK #3, #5, and #8 zippers and pulls. It's actually not that easy to see the difference between #5 and #8 but they sure feel different when installed. I'll bet the next level up Hilleberg, the "Black Label" tents, use #8.

Looking again I see the "3" the "5" and the "8" on the nose of the pulls. So you're right!


One thing I wonder about is whether there is something peculiar about the Hilleberg tent design that leads to the zippers being stressed more than other tents. Sometimes I notice that I'll pitch the Nallo in a way that the zippers are under a lot of tension. I've had this happen in other tents as well though. I don't know. It's tempting to think the blogger is just a whiny spoiled brat who is unhappy despite having the opportunity to spend months bike touring around the world. But maybe there's really something that Hilleberg isn't doing quite right?

Orion wrote: It's tempting to think the blogger is just a whiny spoiled brat who is unhappy despite having the opportunity to spend months bike touring around the world.

They're danes, nuf said. Lol.

lol cleaning a zipper every day... That's just ridiculous. No normal bushwalker would clean his tent zippers... If it's failing, then it's rubbish, and Hilleberg's fault. The fact that you have to clean it to keep it functioning is clearly a bad point on build quality... I've never seen a Velcro tent door, have you ? Velcro is incredibly strong, and wouldn't fail like a zipper. Granted, it's noisy, but so is a zipper. The only issue would that it's less practical to close a tent door that way without leaving any gap, but maybe some people would think it's less annoying than having to change the zipper or send the tent back to the manufacturer. Or put the Velcro AND the zipper (macpac does it on the external door, not on the internal though).

On the YKK website, they recommend cleaning at least one type of zipper they make (can't remember which) although I don't think it was every day and I don't think it was the metal ones.

#5 is light for a loaded zip.
The sliders are cast, and most failures are caused by the slider deforming/ opening up. Larger zippers use larger slider/ have more material helping keep the shape. Also different slider finishes have an effect on slider strength. Nickel finishing hardens the casting, powder coated sliders are more pliable.
But washing everyday? I'd accept the 10 gm penalty for #8 every time.

blacksheep wrote:#5 is light for a loaded zip.
The sliders are cast, and most failures are caused by the slider deforming/ opening up. Larger zippers use larger slider/ have more material helping keep the shape. Also different slider finishes have an effect on slider strength. Nickel finishing hardens the casting, powder coated sliders are more pliable.
But washing everyday? I'd accept the 10 gm penalty for #8 every time.

You are a wealth of knowledge Cam

I've never seen a Velcro tent door, have you ?

Tarptent used Velcro for the first few years.
Folk complained about the noise and getting dirt on it.
We now have zips and Velcro patches , still nothing works well for everybody all of the time.

All the u/light guys use lightweight zips on their tents. I used a no.3 on my cuben tent. You just have to move with stealth like crouching tiger, praying mantis, go with the flow as does the river.

Never had a Nallo Zip fail, all those anxious hands. Not one. They do cut it fine on the seams and have had some loose fabric stuck in the fray. It's time to take a breath, move like the lizard on a overcast autumn day..

Velco plucks at the no-see-um mesh in no time.

tasadam wrote:Maybe they pitch it too tight & put too much strain on the zipper, just a thought.
Mine have been good.
One problem I have had is when undoing the outer, the flap will often get caught in the zip.
Hasn't weakened the zip though, and you just have to learn where you need to hold things so you can undo it to be sure the zipper doesn't get caught - not a big deal.
Never cleaned my zippers, by the way.
Never seen the need - they don't get grimed up.
Did they lube them with vaseline or something? That would certainly attract more grime to them.

Just seems to me there may be a factor other than the tent involved.

+1
I think the latest Hilleberg catalogue recommends using a special zip cleaner - stuff comes in a little squeeze bottle with a built in brush. Same stuff we use on drysuit zips. Very good cleaner/lubricant, non-greasy. Not that I've ever used it on a tent.

But. I have had issues with a sleeping bag zip, the one on the Nemo. Similar sort of thing to what's been reported happening with these tents - the teeth separate. And it only happens if I have packed the bag with the zip undone. So I'm kind of wondering if this is a packing/handling issue more than one of quality. Especially after looking at that photo from the blog . . .

cleaning tent zippers every day?? that is like ford telling me to change the air in my car tyres every week. it sounds like hilleberg isn't filtering their water properly ??

dannnnn wrote:cleaning tent zippers every day?? that is like ford telling me to change the air in my car tyres every week

Actually, you should be checking your tyre pressures every week. So your analogy actually supports Hilleberg!

This would appear to be a one off problem.
I have two Hilleberg tents and have never had anything bordering on a zipper issue.
I suspect few other Hilleberg addicts in here have had a problem either.

roysta wrote:This would appear to be a one off problem.
I have two Hilleberg tents and have never had anything bordering on a zipper issue.
I suspect few other Hilleberg addicts in here have had a problem either.

Having used three Hilleberg tents never a problem with the zippers. Only issue has been a slight opening up of the stitching on the Katium 3 inner near the door after many many uses. The Kaitum 3 is a big tent so likely to load the zips up more. Yeap the Velcro and no see mesh do not enjoy each others company but no great problem with a little care.

Think the daily cleaning requirement excessive though. Err? Never cleaned mine actually. But Hilleberg recommend their heavy weight versions with bigger zips for sand use. I would imagine silicon would act like cutting paste so makes sense for that environment.

It is one thing that never ceases to amaze me is that different people can have totally different experiences with the same item. Great if you are having no issue but not much fun other way round.

Have two down jackets brought together and they had the most impressive looking zips but the pocket ones failed. They had YKK on them. Yet on any other jacket never had a zip fail apart from cheap no name zips.

Maybe just a bad batch or our bloggers pitch their tents in gritty conditions?

Cheers

Hi all.

Thanks for posting it here Aushiker (I know you from your blog and yacf)

Just to add and to and answer some of the comment here.

If you tried to pack/pitch your tent down in Tierra del Fuego, where the picture of Peli is laying on the tent was taken, you HAD to lay on the tent. Not something we made a habit out of, but in a 60km/h wind or more and with a tent that is over 5 metres long you had to anchor it down, or else you would have a long walk to find it in a barbed wire fence. It was rather hard to do so with only four hands so therefore one of us had to sit on it, while one ran around getting as many pecks in the ground as possible before we could put the poles in. If we didn't do that it would flap around and we all know that is the major killer for a tent. We always packed the tent down with all the zip closed up, which makes it easier to pitch again.

The zip on the side door clearly had a heck of strain on it when pitched, you could see the holes from the stitching stretching, when the sun heated the fabric up, it flexed by 30cm, between hot and cold. We had to give slack to the guy lines and other pecks to be able to use that and other zips, because we were scared that the zip would break. I honestly think that Hilleberg have underestimated the zippers ability, because many other tents I have seen have used thicker/bigger zips on their outer tents and even inner tens. The zips started to show wear on the teeth, nothing to see on the metal sliders, then the zips would't close and when trying to get the sliders back in place you ended up damaging the teeth's, bending and breaking them off. So if we have to get new zips I will go for a bigger grade for sure.

We took a lot of care not to get any dirt or mud on our tent and much care while pitching the tent too. I'm happy with a zip failing after some use but not after a few months on a tent that is so expensive and claimed to be the ultimate tent for the outdoor enthusiast. Even the new inner tent started to fail after a little over a month use, that is just not on. If this had happened at the end of our tour I wouldn't have moaned as a spoiled pom, which I'm not, I'm Danish

Yes we were lucky to have this trip, we worked hard for it and would like a dry and away from biting *&%$#! place to sleep while on tour. Therefore we spend some hard earned cash on a tent that was marked as THE outdoor tent, which we hoped would last much longer than it actually did along with a bit better customer service than what we got.

I think they had unrealistic expectations, mabye because the tent was so expensive.

If you read the Hilleberg description for their "Red Label" tents, they say: "Their emphasis on lighter weight makes them less than ideal for harsh environments and extended adventures in demanding conditions.". Whereas the Black Label tents (with the heavier zippers) are thus described: "Their extra durability increases longevity, and reduces the risk of problems, especially on longer adventures in remote areas, where repair opportunities may be limited."

They picked the wrong tent for their purposes. They should have bought a Keron, just as Petra told them.

I took the time to measure the zippers in our Nallo 3. It has 7.2m of #5 coil zipper and 3.1m of #3 zipper. There are 6 #5 double pull sliders, 1 #5 single pull, and 4 #3 singles. If these were all upgraded (#8 instead of #5, #5 instead of #3) the 2.0kg tent would increase by about 90g, or 4.5%. In the Kaitum GT that the blogger purchased there are more zippers so the increase would be greater. I think it's safe to say the blogger wouldn't mind that extra weight.

But I don't want an extra 90g in zippers anymore than I want a heavier floor, thicker fly fabric, or larger diameter poles. I puchased the Nallo largely because of its weight. If I needed extra durability I would have bought a Nammatj or some other tent entirely.

Orion wrote:I think they had unrealistic expectations, mabye because the tent was so expensive.

If you read the Hilleberg description for their "Red Label" tents, they say: "Their emphasis on lighter weight makes them less than ideal for harsh environments and extended adventures in demanding conditions.". Whereas the Black Label tents (with the heavier zippers) are thus described: "Their extra durability increases longevity, and reduces the risk of problems, especially on longer adventures in remote areas, where repair opportunities may be limited."

They picked the wrong tent for their purposes. They should have bought a Keron, just as Petra told them.

Hillberg also market the tent specifically to bicycle tourists (i.e., much more extensive use is pretty common) and they hardly went riding in extreme conditions, some tough conditions at times but hardly extreme and Hillberg also say this about their Red Label tents...

Red Label tents are ideal for trips in any season where lighter weight is the priority… …and are quite capable of standing up to challenging terrain and conditions.

and to put your quote in context this is what Hillberg say in total about Red Label tents ...

red label tents are built for both short and longer trips in generally less demanding conditions in all seasons, such as less exposed mountain terrain, forests in both winter and summer, and the like, but where you still may encounter severe situations. Their emphasis on lighter weight makes them less than ideal for harsh environments and extended adventures in demanding conditions. They are, however, quite capable of withstanding heavy storm conditions. Experienced users sometimes choose these tents for more demanding adventures because they knowingly accept the trade off of strength for lighter weight.

They may have picked the wrong tent but Hillberg does not seem very clear what is suitable usage and/or lacks an understanding of bicycle touring outside of Europe. These guys where if I recall cycling touring in Australia (not the outback), New Zealand, US and South America, none of which is extreme conditions by any reasonable measure. Heck they have to ride roads in the main after all .

Hillberg should not suggest the tent is suitable for bicycle touring if it is not suitable for "extended adventures" yet they do so. Maybe time for a rethink of their marketing.

BTW the last failure I think was in Wellington. Is Wellington now extreme camping?

Regards
Andrew

Hi Wooly, sorry you had such a bad time with your tent.

woollypigs wrote:If you tried to pack/pitch your tent down in Tierra del Fuego, where the picture of Peli is laying on the tent was taken, you HAD to lay on the tent. Not something we made a habit out of, but in a 60km/h wind or more and with a tent that is over 5 metres long you had to anchor it down, or else you would have a long walk to find it in a barbed wire fence. It was rather hard to do so with only four hands so therefore one of us had to sit on it, while one ran around getting as many pecks in the ground as possible before we could put the poles in. If we didn't do that it would flap around and we all know that is the major killer for a tent. We always packed the tent down with all the zip closed up, which makes it easier to pitch again.

Take a look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eFAyKMz314

woollypigs wrote:I honestly think that Hilleberg have underestimated the zippers ability, because many other tents I have seen have used thicker/bigger zips on their outer tents and even inner tens.

I think you overestimated. In our Nallo, with something around 75 days of use, the zippers work as if brand new. I treat the zippers as fragile mechanisms. The lightweight poles and thin nylon fabric I similarly handle with care. They're very good for their weight but it should be very obvious that these are lightweight materials.

Each time I spend a night in our Nallo I am impressed with the quality of the both the materials and the workmanship. To have such a tent at under 2kg is amazing. But I do not delude myself into thinking that it is somehow magically impervious to abuse. It is not.

Aushiker wrote:They may have picked the wrong tent but Hillberg does not seem very clear what is suitable usage and/or lacks an understanding of bicycle touring outside of Europe. These guys where if I recall cycling touring in Australia (not the outback), New Zealand, US and South America, none of which is extreme conditions by any reasonable measure. Heck they have to ride roads in the main after all .

Hillberg should not suggest the tent is suitable for bicycle touring if it is not suitable for "extended adventures" yet they do so. Maybe time for a rethink of their marketing.

What would you have them put on their website? That their tents are not suitable for bicycling touring? It's impossible to spell out every conceivable type of use and abuse. The customer has to assume some degree of responsibility, don't you think?

If you were able to demonstrate that Hilleberg tents were having a higher than normal rate of zipper failure I'd be convinced there is a problem. But there are no data here worth considering, just a handful of anecdotes on both sides of the question.

Orion wrote:What would you have them put on their website? That their tents are not suitable for bicycling touring? It's impossible to spell out every conceivable type of use and abuse. The customer has to assume some degree of responsibility, don't you think?

Actually what I said was ...

They may have picked the wrong tent but Hillberg does not seem very clear what is suitable usage and/or lacks an understanding of bicycle touring outside of Europe. These guys where if I recall cycling touring in Australia (not the outback), New Zealand, US and South America, none of which is extreme conditions by any reasonable measure. Heck they have to ride roads in the main after all

Hillberg should not suggest the tent is suitable for bicycle touring if it is not suitable for "extended adventures" yet they do so. Maybe time for a rethink of their marketing.

I did try with the last sentence to join the dots on what cycle touring is so often about. I guess that did not work. I am sorry if that does not make sense but not sure given the context of the full post what else I can say to make it clearer

If you were able to demonstrate that Hilleberg tents were having a higher than normal rate of zipper failure I'd be convinced there is a problem. But there are no data here worth considering, just a handful of anecdotes on both sides of the question.

Personally I would prefer to know of the real experience of other users than not; to know of real customer service experiences than not and all with some context and reasonable background such as in this blog post but then I prefer to make informed purchasing decisions. If I was in the market for a new tent of course I would weigh up their experience against what others say: that is what making an informed decision is all about, but with out the detailed post I wouldn't have as much to go with.

I guess in summary I value knowledge ...

Have a nice day.
Andrew

BTW that video is nice but seriously do you expect to recall it after days even months on the road, possibly facing for the first time pitching the tent in such conditions and in a foreign country where you are being bombarded with all these new experiences? I think sometimes we get so detached from what it is actually like "on the ground" when we are hiding behind our computer screens.

Oh for those interested Tierra del Fuego is in Argentina not far from the Falklands so I can imagine a pretty windy place for sure.