Down or Synthetic Jackets

[wildernesswanderer]

Looking at insulation jackets and trying to work out whats better, down or synthetic. Down seems to probably be warmer, but how much where synthetic doesn't matter if it gets wet.

Any suggestions.

[icefest]

AFAIR
The best synthetic is about as warm as 650 down.
Synthetic insulation tends to loose loft as it ages.
Down is harder to dry (non DWR).
Feel free to correct me.

[KANANGRABOYD]

Well you need to tell us what you want to use it for, and where - conditions.
Both have their attributes, and depending on how and where you use it will almost dictate what you purchase.
Down is excellent for the Warmth/Weight ration and compressibility, however it needs to be "babied" more. Down isn't as moisture resistant as synthetic, and also synthetic can be machine washed. It won't retain it's loft and warmth as long as down, but again it all boils down to how you care for and use the jacket.
For 3 season use here in OZ, A down jacket like say Mont Icicle or a North Face Nuptse is all you need - but you can always go lighter and use better down such as what the upper end Mountain Hardwear, or Mont Bell jackets offer.
Synthetic - again the upper end Mont Bell or OR et al have good jackets.
If you are using in wet/humid conditions then use synthetic. If you generally "trash" you gear then synthetic. If you are after light weight then down. Although the top of the line garments now "claim" upwards of 900 Loft White Goose, unless you are a gram counter like Phil or Forest - a 650 loft will suffice.

[wayno]

you've got water resistant down now which closes the gap a bit between synthetic and down insulation in how well it performs in the wet, under really wet conditions it will still get saturated, but slower than normal down and it will dry out a lot faster....

[wildernesswanderer]

So usage would be winter Victoria/Tasmania and NZ, more of a warm jacket for camp after hiking. Oh and I don't trash anything if that helps.

[wayno]

down is what you're after.

[GPSGuided]

Down is also more expensive generally. Most people need to consider their disposable budget also.

[Orion]

Down is also more expensive generally. Most people need to consider their disposable budget also.

But consider the up front cost versus the cost per year over the lifetime of the jacket.
Down usually wins the latter contest.

[wayno]

Down is also more expensive generally. Most people need to consider their disposable budget also.

he says he's considering down, from that the assumption is he can afford down...

[GPSGuided]

he says he's considering down, from that the assumption is he can afford down...

Being able to afford does not necessarily mean a one way decision tree. For the same price, one can usually have a higher spec (loosely defined) product. The final decision. Will obviously come down to how one weighs the various factors.

As for longevity of the insulation, that depends on how long one usually keeps a particular piece of clothing and how it's cared for. The likelihood is that technology will further advance and the urge to upgrade in a few years will be great (granted, there'll always be those who keep their down item for 20+ years). In any case, not as if synthetic insulation will self destruct within 5 years when properly cared for.

I have nothing against down and have items from various constructions. The decision just needs to be well informed and takes account of all factors in a way that suits the particular individual.

[wayno]

given the same amount of care, synthetic insulation like primaloft self destructs faster than down when you wear it with a pack...tic jacket
if you use a synthetic jacket enough it wont necessarily last 5 years no matter how well cared for

[GPSGuided]

given the same amount of care, synthetic insulation like primaloft self destructs faster than down when you wear it with a pack...tic jacket
if you use a synthetic jacket enough it wont necessarily last 5 years no matter how well cared for

Thanks with that scale. So the question is, how much use is "use it enough"? For recreational casual users here in milder parts of Australia and using it barely half of the year, what would be the longevity. For identical usage, how long would a down unit last in comparison? "Longer" is an insufficiently objective unit for fully informed decision, but used highly effectively in the market place to sell more higher priced down products to the masses. Yes, I've been sucked into it at times too.

[wayno]

a report i read on backpackinglight showed a tester could pretty much thrash lightweight synthetic jackets in a year of use without deliveratbely abusing it... he said the fill was loosing what loft it had......
i dont know exactly how much longer you'd get out of down but you'd really have to thrash it badly and not take care of it to wreck it that fast, you shodl get severl years use from down jackets if you take care of them...

[wildernesswanderer]

Thanks now I just have to work out the specs and what they mean. Any suggestions around the $300-$400 mark. Or are their brands that excel in down jackets more than others.

[wayno]

the cottage manufacturers like feathered friends or western mountaineering are pretty hard to beat , depends how fussy you want to be....
but you'll still get great jackets from RAB, Montane, Outdoor research. patagonia, Marmot, mountain hardwear, mountain designs"
The North face summit series.
mont bell.

don't confuse "fill weight" with "loft count"
fill weight is the weight of down in the jacket and it can vary a lot depending on what conditions its designed for, the more baffles you see usually means the less down in the jacket and more baffles needed to keep it evenly spread through teh jacket.
the ones with a lot of baffles can be refered to as "down sweaters" and have a similar warmth to a windfleece or jersey.
the loft is how much volume a given weight of down puffs out to, the higher the better , means for the weight of down it will pack down smaller.

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Down-Jack ... ws/Ratings

[Moondog55]

So if it is for wearing in camp and not to be worn under a pack and is to be used as a warm layer for comfort I don't think it actually matters which fill you buy. The choice is really about weight V cost. First decide how warm the garment needs to be, then think about what will be worn underneath it. obviously if you have pile or fleece to wear under it a lighter thinner jacket will work.
Personally tho I would always choose a warmer jacket or parka "Just in case" the main benefit from insulated garments comes from the built in windproofing which always makes a worn garment appear warmer.
Just an observation of mine this winter, the more experienced instructors for the school groups I encountered all were wearing parkas about as warm as my big Everest down parka; with about 500 grams of 650 loft filling and Goretex outer shells, don't forget that the high humidity here in winter means needing more insulation.
My use this winter of various weights of Climashield says to me that 55 to 70 GSM is fine for the legs but the torso needs at least 100 GSM; and 150 is probably better if using the jacket with just lightweight garments underneath.
Everything is a compromise and you are the one who has to carry it

[wayno]

yeah probably not a massive difference between 650 down and 800 down for warmth, , just packs down a bit smaller, if you're a gram counter you will go for the higher loft...

few more jacket reviews here

http://www.ukhillwalking.com/gear/list. ... 537&y=-190

[wildernesswanderer]

So for curiosity sake Montane for instance has their Anti-freeze at 170g of 750+ down. And then feathered friends has a 79g of 900+ loft in a ultralight weight and a 204g of 850+ in a medium weight which is only 25g more than the Montane. How do you explain the specs there just so I have a idea of what I'm looking for or how much is to much warmth

[wayno]

this is refined better for down jacket search than the last link

http://www.ukhillwalking.com/gear/list. ... 537&y=-190

[wayno]

So for curiosity sake Montane for instance has their Anti-freeze at 170g of 750+ down. And then feathered friends has a 79g of 900+ loft in a ultralight weight and a 204g of 850+ in a medium weight which is only 25g more than the Montane. How do you explain the specs there just so I have a idea of what I'm looking for or how much is to much warmth

generally speaking the more weight in down the warmer it will be, depends on the denier of the shell fabric they use as to overall weight as well and whether it has a hood, the ultralights will have the thinnest nylon fabric, if you're worried about it snagging on anything you might not want to get ultralights but the nylon they use is still pretty tough for its weight..

[wayno]

also pockets with zippers add extra weight to the equation, so when comparing models check for features like that.. you can get down pullovers with half zips to save even more weight with less zip length

[Moondog55]

A lot of the differences will come down to the cut and fit, the ultra light units I have looked at are cut skinny to minimise the weight, which is itself a compromise as you can't wear inner layers, where-as something like the Patagonia DAS is cut huge to wear over everything else.
Rays Outdoors have a good quality down jacket on sale at the moment, lightweight/good down/ so tight even an XXL will only allow me 1 layer of long-john top underneath it, excellent as an around town underwear layer in a Chicago winter but no good here if you want to wear it over a pile jumper for instance.

[GPSGuided]

also pockets with zippers add extra weight to the equation, so when comparing models check for features like that.. you can get down pullovers with half zips to save even more weight with less zip length

Absolutely. Looked at the various models and finally chose Anti-freeze here as it offered usability with pockets, cuff adjustment, soft absorbent fabric around the collar etc. A tad more weight but whole lot more useful for my purposes. Weight, loft spec are but one aspect in the choice.

[Moondog55]

As I have often stated the combination of a down inner jumper ( I used to own a J&H "Dumper") and a polyester outer jacket can work well too and the down jumper is then available to sleep in if conditions warrant.
Of course this is heavier than a single warm garment but often versatility is worth a little extra weight and you could leave the fleece behind.
Wayno [I think] said a few months ago that what we face in winter isn't so much a carried weight problem as a packed bulk issue, down will pack smaller than other insulations

[blacksheep]

No one can accuse you lot of over simplifying he decision making process..

[DannyS]

No one can accuse you lot of over simplifying he decision making process..

[GPSGuided]

For some, $400 after tax is but a drop in the bucket. Otherwise it's scary when others who are being drawn by the hype to fork out quite a decent load of dough for 150g and tiny bit of space savings. At the end of the day, down is just a luxury, not a life and death choice. It's but fair to portray it as such and get away from all that marketing message. The choice is then up to the individual. That's all.

[wayno]

dont forget to check how small the packets pack, i think teh patagonia das packs a lot larger than your average down jacket and it aint that light

[wayno]

oops i mean how small he jackets pack

[Moondog55]

Agreed, a DAS is reasonably big unless compressed and really is a specialised bit of kit meant more for climbers than walkers, but having bought one it goes with me most of the time in winter now.
The new model is lighter than the old one and cut somewhat skinnier, only saves about 50 grams tho, belay parkas are a subject all their own.