Sleeping bag options - Macpac and others

[Snafuspyramid]

Having purchased a new tent (with the aid of the invaluable advice on this forum), I'm now on the quest for some new sleeping bags.

Our current ones are Macpac Escape 700s (apparently with a comfort rating of 2). I bought them about a month ago, and we've used them a few times; they were recommended by the store specifically for bicycle touring NZ's South Island and Tassie in spring. Unfortunately, at the time I I didn't know a thing NZ's South Island, Tasmania or, for that matter, about sleeping bags... I now realise that taking those bags to either location would be asking for suffering, so I need something else before the planned trip.

I'm hoping that Macpac will agree to exchange the bags for something more suitable, in which case my preferred option would be two of the Latitude 700 range. Does anyone have any experience with Macpac bags, these ones in particular?

Or alternatively, what bags from other brands might suit me? -

-Versatility. Being for bicycle touring, it's not practical to have multiple bags for multiple conditions - you carry everything the whole way!
-A decent hood.
-Reasonably low comfort temperature, say -4 celsius.
-Down, mainly for compressibility.
-At least a half-length zip.
-Big toe box for my sasquatch feet.
-Long length (I'm 195cm).
-Water resistant toe-box (I sometimes still touch the end of the tent).

However, I'm happy to sacrifice -

-Weight
-Cheap price.

Many thanks,

Eddie

[Strider]

I have an Escapade 700 which I bought around 4 years ago as I wanted a all-round bag on a budget rather than a dedicated bushwalking bag; at that time I was only an occasional/summer bushwalker and this therefore didn't rate particular highly on my priorities.

I have taken it as low as -6C (indoors!) and hardly slept a wink. Aside from that experience it has been OK with most usage being in temps around 5-10C, but definitely not great with heat loss due to the wider cut being quite noticeable and it is not unusual to wake up surrounded by stone cold areas of the bag (those I am not in contact with). It will soon be relegated to being my "summer" bag and I will purchase another for colder conditions.

What sleeping mat are you using? Keep in mind my experiences have been with a Exped Downmat UL (-24C) so lesser insulation might yield a very different result to mine.

P.S. I noticed in another thread you commented that the Escapade is 700 loft - this is not the case. It is 710g of 600loft down. You may want to note this if you are comparing with other bags.

[KANANGRABOYD]

Down Quilt! - and before you say " WT *$&#?!" - do some research.
Enlightened Equipment make superb bags using all the best materials and down.
Just remember - all that down you are laying on is doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Macpac's range of bags are ok - more like entry level/occasional camper suited, their higher end bags being no where near the value of other brands using the same materials and down.
The STS bags are also really good ( Sea to Summit) - and quite often they will be on sale from various vendors you just need to be vigilant and check the net.

[Strider]

Just remember - all that down you are laying on is doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Not even if you roll around a bit during the night?

[norts]

I have just ordered one of these
http://www.paddypallin.com.au/sea-to-su ... rance.html
This is a good price, I would presume these are the older model that doesnt have the ULtra Down.

Roger

[Snafuspyramid]

I would strongly prefer to get hold of a bag in which I can embarass myself, rolling around and thrashing like a loon on a shop floor, before purchasing. Online shopping does not seem ideal for something as individual as sleeping bags.

As for Macpac, I'll see how they feel about swapping the bags tomorrow and report back. I'm surprised to hear you say that they are more "entry level camper suited"; I am learning that they are certainly on the expensive side, but they seem to have a great reputation for quality and service.

The quilt thing seems a bit Spartan and cutting edge for me, but I'll certainly look into it. Remember that with cycle touring, weight is not much of an issue. Even if I decide to take up bushwalking (and this forum tempts me) I'm a big guy in my twenties and can't imagine begruding the extra grams. Similarly, getting a custom bag isn't really a good idea, since I've got a deadline I need to meet.

The brands that are easiest for me to inspect are Mont and Mountain Designs. I don't know anything about Mont other than that they made my old winter fleece, which I have slept in and worn many, many hundreds of times without the slightest detriment to its appearance. As for Mountain Designs, they have opened a store near my house so would be convenient, but the details on their website about their bags are a bit scant.

[Strider]

I think you need to do a search for Macpac on these forums mate - they are often considered but half a step above Kathmandu these days.

[KANANGRABOYD]

As Strider said - Macpac's bags are pretty much entry level these days, although they do make a few high end quality bags - but they are waaaayyyyyyyy overpriced.
Mont make EXCELLENT bags - they have for the last 20 years - I own a Telemark and a Mainrange in Dryloft, and also a Brindabella. These days Mont are what I would call expensive, when you liken them to the rest of the market.
STS would be my pick, and also Western Mountaineering.
But it all depends on what you want to spend.
Don't bother with MD's or Paddy's bags.
Also One Planet make excellent bags - albeit expensive, however the workmanship is excellent.

[Strider]

Marmot too

[wildernesswanderer]

I have a Sea to Summit AP II, love it, great bag.

[Bubbalouie]

I use a nemo nocturne 30 large (I'm 192cm tall for reference), the shape works a little better if you don't like mummy bags, I move about in my sleep a lot so... That said it weighs a touch more than a mummy bag. I've found it to be very warm even at 0c and cope with condensation well (seems to fit more of your criteria). I do tend to sleep a little hot when hiking though, 16c and a tshirt is pleasant when moving about.

I recommend having a look for bags with water resistant treated down too if you can.

[Don R]

Hello,

Regarding Sea to Summit sleeping bags, I recently purchased a Sea to Summit Traverse XT1 from Wild Earth for circa $300. Prices are much higher at the moment. I found the bag good to around zero, with an insulating mat. The shell is breathable, and water resistant. It packs in a relatively compact stuff sac. The accessories such as light weight stuff sac, cotton stoprage bag and large sac are very good. I would have doubts about anything below zero for most walkers, but with a reasonable set of thermals it should be good. The quality of the construction is high, whilst the weight is around 1070g, which is substantially better than the 1700g my older bag inflicted upon me. Throw the Traverse XT1 and some warm clothes in, whoich you tend to walk in NZ or Tas with anyhow, and you could be "good to go". As regards Mountain Design bags, historically they were very much "second tier" bags and below the better quality competition.

[wayno]

check out exped bags if you see any, they also make very good quality bags.

[Snafuspyramid]

Well, Macpac's customer service has been fantastic - I contacted them about the issues. They replied almost immediately. Despite explaining fairly completely why they think the bags are fit for their intended purpose (touring Tassie/NZ other than in winter), why they were recommended for that purpose, and the various factors relevant to comfortable sleeping temperature, they agreed to allow me to swap the (used) bags for more suitable options, paying the difference.

In my opinion, that is very impressive service that warrants the relatively high price of their gear.

Anyway, this leaves me with a choice between the Latitude 700 and the Express 600, rated to -4 and -2 respectively. The Latitude seems like a better choice to me, since the only real disadvantage relative to the Express 600 is the significantly increased weight. However, accepting that trade-off leaves a reduced price, more spacious bag, and a waterproof head and foot - all of which are important features for me, being a very tall and fairly mobile sleeper. I consider the extra weight to be unimportant on a bicycle.

Which of the two would you recommend, oh wise ones? Incidentally, I looked into Mont and can't seem to find any bags long enough for me. Can't find much info on the Expeds.

[wayno]

i dont think their price is warranted even with that level of service, as has been noted extensively on this forum,,, a lot of the chain stores hyper inflate their recommended retail prices to make their sale price reductions look better.

[Strider]

I consider the extra weight to be unimportant on a bicycle.

But didn't you say earlier that you were keen to get into some bushwalking? There is half a kilo difference between those two bags.

Might I ask what the difference in price is? Considering how expensive these Macpac bags are you might be better off buying a second [good quality but at sensible pricing] bag instead.

[Joomy]

I have just ordered one of these
http://www.paddypallin.com.au/sea-to-su ... rance.html
This is a good price, I would presume these are the older model that doesnt have the ULtra Down.

Roger

Those Talus are excellent value but keep in mind, Sea to Summit like most manufacturers use the EN13537 "limit" rating whereas MacPac (sensibly) use the "comfort" rating. So with Macpac bags a "-4C" bag is roughly a -11C bag under S2S's rating system. The Talus TSII has a comfort rating of -3C, so comparable to the Latitude 700.

[Joomy]

I consider the extra weight to be unimportant on a bicycle.

But didn't you say earlier that you were keen to get into some bushwalking? There is half a kilo difference between those two bags.

Might I ask what the difference in price is? Considering how expensive these Macpac bags are you might be better off buying a second [good quality but at sensible pricing] bag instead.

If only someone around here had one for sale...

[stepbystep]

I have a Rab Neutrino 400 and love it for 3 seasons.

I also have a Malachowski 'Climber 600' that was sent to me for assessment by Kasia at Globewalker. The build quality is excellent and if I needed a new bag this would be at the top of the list.
Something else to consider is the source of down. Malachowski use an ethical source unlike most other brands. This will also determine my next down product purchase.

http://malachowskidown.com/climber-600/

[Snafuspyramid]

If I purchase the Latitude bags, as I plan to, the difference between what I paid for both bags and two new bags will be $556. I certainly couldn't hope to buy two bags of similar quality to the Latitudes for that price.

Of course, I could sell the Escapade bags - I bought them on a one-day sale (hence not doing my research), and they are in perfect condition, so I would probably sell them without making any loss.

Still, $500-$550 seems to be a fair price for a bag with the temperature rating and features that the Macpac range have. For instance, the S2S Talus TSII sleeping bag in the long size is $530, even online. Admittedly it is a good deal lighter (200g or so) and has the moisture treated down, but that doesn't seem a critical feature to me. As for Mont, they don't seem to make sleeping bags for people over 185cm tall.

As I've said, I've also been very impressed with the service and would readily pay a premium for that, as well as the opportunity to inspect the product in person and "kick the tyres" so to speak. Call me sentimental, but I'm also inclined to be loyal to the brand, as they've treated me well.

Of course, I don't mean to question the prevailing wisdom of the forum - quite the opposite, I'm keen to keep exploring my options. Please keep the suggestions coming!

Incidentally, I agree that the technique of giving hugely inflated prices for "non-members"(where membership is free) or "recommended retail price"(at which the product is never sold) annoys me no end. Someone in the marketing department obviously read the chapter on "benchmarking heuristics" in a psychology textbook and had a bright idea. Still, I'm more interested in the product that the marketing.

[Strider]

If I purchase the Latitude bags, as I plan to, the difference between what I paid for both bags and two new bags will be $556. I certainly couldn't hope to buy two bags of similar quality to the Latitudes for that price.

I think it would be quite achievable to get two quality bags for that price or marginally more and most likely a lot better than the Macpac offerings. You really need to do more research before proceeding with this purchase decision IMO.

[ryantmalone]

Or alternatively, what bags from other brands might suit me? -

-Versatility. Being for bicycle touring, it's not practical to have multiple bags for multiple conditions - you carry everything the whole way!
-A decent hood.
-Reasonably low comfort temperature, say -4 celsius.
-Down, mainly for compressibility.
-At least a half-length zip.
-Big toe box for my sasquatch feet.
-Long length (I'm 195cm).
-Water resistant toe-box (I sometimes still touch the end of the tent).

However, I'm happy to sacrifice -

-Weight
-Cheap price.

Many thanks,

Eddie

Marmot too

I'll stand up for Marmot too.

I used to use Macpac for everything back in the 90's, however whilst I have limited experience with their newer range (apart from their packs, which I love!), the talk I've heard about Macpac recently has steered me away from them in a very big way.

I made the choice to purchase a Marmot Helium last year, and to be honest, its the best bag I have ever owned. Its down filled, and very warm, have used it in both very hot conditions, and very cold conditions (down to about -4 in Tassie).

This bag in particular meets all of your requirements above, except for the waterproof foot, however this can easily be fixed by wrapping the bottom of your bag in some of your waterproofs, or a space blanket.

No joke though, this bag is incredible. Kept me toasty warm (almost too warm!!) in -4c, and is very comfortable with a very big hood. And if you order from the US, you'll only pay around 200 - 300$ for it too.

[Joomy]

If I purchase the Latitude bags, as I plan to, the difference between what I paid for both bags and two new bags will be $556. I certainly couldn't hope to buy two bags of similar quality to the Latitudes for that price.

Of course, I could sell the Escapade bags - I bought them on a one-day sale (hence not doing my research), and they are in perfect condition, so I would probably sell them without making any loss.

Personally I would never call a company's customer service stellar that doesn't include a decent returns policy.

Still, $500-$550 seems to be a fair price for a bag with the temperature rating and features that the Macpac range have. For instance, the S2S Talus TSII sleeping bag in the long size is $530, even online. Admittedly it is a good deal lighter (200g or so) and has the moisture treated down, but that doesn't seem a critical feature to me. As for Mont, they don't seem to make sleeping bags for people over 185cm tall.

If you're referring to the lack of a waterproof foot an easier and more versatile solution is just to zip up your rain jacket and put that over the foot of your bag.

Check your PM's snafus!

[Aidan]

Macpac seems to attract a hate committee in this forum which is a shame.
I've been a user of Macpac for years and love their gear.
I live on a budget so tend to buy gear when its on special and not when full price.
I've a 4 season Sanctuary 800xp xl for NZ winters and Express 400 XL for WA winter conditions particularly for cycle touring.
I love my Minaret and have bought a Cocoon bivybag and Microlight tent (yet to try).
I have backpacks and clothing and without exception had a good run out of their gear (some of which is over 20 years old and still going strong).
Their service to me has always been exceptional and I think the last item was my 20 year old Cascade backpack got new straps in under 7 days turn around which considering I was in the north island of NZ at the time and the pack had to go to Chch, I was impressed. I'm sticking with what I know till I'm shown better for better value and service. I'm not holding my breath.

[Aidan]

I ran out of edit in the above post.
I'll add that most of the so called help offered by the knockers it would appear all/any evidence is at best anecdotal and hearsay.
Entry level? They cater to all levels and budgets but like anything else, you get what you pay for.
Over priced? Well if you want to buy cheap look elsewhere.
Likened to Kathmando? Perhaps the marketing is similar but companies tend to do what works and both companies seem to be sticking with their current strategy.
I'd buy Macpac any day of the week but have no experience of Kathmando to offer.
I have read lots of threads about Macpac in this forum and suggest unlike one of the above posts does that there is plenty of positive and not that much negative commentary.
Would I think them perfect - certainly not - what company is.
However I think they are better than many and if you take the time to read the spec on their gear you'll see its top notch.
An example would be the zips on their tents - they use the industry best.
Want to nit pic and I'll find you lots of complaints about any companies gear.
Its the putting right that counts!

[icefest]

I think the reason for the Macpac hate is that while, yes Macpack equipment is good, it is not the best of it's class anymore. Other companies have overtaken them in innovation.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Macpac. I have some Macpack gear, some older, some I bought 3 weeks ago. My first pack was a macpack, and that's still my go-to bag for rough scrub-bashing.

[Snafuspyramid]

I'm a bit surprised to hear bad things about Macpac. What is it in concrete terms that bothers people about them, other than that they use obnoxious marketing techniques? The very high RRP technique is hardly unique to them in the outdoors industry. Almost all reports on their products in these forums seem overwhelmingly positive, which is the main reason I went with them in the first place.

I admit that, having done more research into competing products, they seem expensive. On sale, the specifications seem very reasonable for the price.

The comparison to Kathmandu seems unfair though. I have had limited experience of Kathmandu stuff (mainly in the sense of bringing it home, setting it up in the yard, returning it immediately) and it seems on a completely different level to Macpac's quality.

As for me, I've taken up Joomy's offer of a Western Mountaineering Apache MF. It is apparently rated at -10 degrees centigrade (although what that number refers to I don't know - the forum wiki has the WM ratings as limits). I'll be selling the Macpac on eBay.

Of course, the Apache is probably warmer than I'm ever likely to need for cycle touring, even in winter. So I suppose I risk having the opposite problem.

However, I can always unzip the bag or use it as a quilt. Since I'm set on only having one bag, it seems easier to deal with a bag that's too hot than too cold.

I haven't received it yet, so haven't had the opportunity to weigh it; but if the stated weight is accurate, then I'll save almost 850g from my pannier weight (including swapping my unused "Thermolite" liner for a lighter silk one). Even on a bike that's a lot of weight.

One final question. Erm... what is a quilt?

[icefest]

A quilt is an unhooded sleeping bag without a zip.

This website explains it: http://gearthirty.blogspot.com.au/2012/ ... quilt.html

[Strider]

A quilt is an unhooded sleeping bag without a zip.

And without a bottom

[KANANGRABOYD]

(Post removed)