camping in cold weather

[polas]

hi,
We have a hike planned for the next weekend and suddenly temperatures dropped significantly here and the forecast in the mountains shows +1 Celsius at night. Well, we are not ready for such low temperatures. What would you recommend to survive the night (besides buying a new sleeping bags)? We all have small 2 ppl tents and 3 season sleeping bags which we know that are not very comfortable in +10. Any liners that we could get? or maybe two sleeping bags for each (we can take sleeping bags from other family members that are not going on that trip)?

they say this add +14 celsius:
http://www.wildearth.com.au/buy/sea-to- ... r/areactex
are they really that good?

any suggestions welcome.
cheers
Pawel

[GPSGuided]

Depending on the specific circumstance and equipment, keeping your clothes (inc socks and caps) on can help significantly. I assume you'd have warm clothing for the condition, right? This would be the cheapest and least weight option.

[polas]

I will have warm clothes of course. However last few times when temperatures weren't that low we all struggled through the nights so I know that warm clothing and my sleeping bag which is rated +5c is not enough...

[GPSGuided]

Then I think the best option is to just bite the bullet and find a suitable bag for the condition. Buying bits and pieces of add-ons is inconvenient and potentially costs more in the long run.

[bernieq]

they say this add +14 celsius

Actually, they say " up to 14 celcuis" and, IMO, it's more likely to be closer to 5deg at best.

I tried a (standard?) Thermolite a few years ago and decided it made little difference.

or maybe two sleeping bags for each

Depending on the bags, this might be an option - but the added weight and volume may make it impractical. Do keep in mind that a forecast is just that - a forecast. It doesn't guarantee that it won't be colder (and wind will reduce the apparent temperature further).

[Franco]

First it is important not only to have warm clothing (as supplement) but warm,dry and clean clothing.
So make sure you don't sweat in the clothing you might want to use at night.
Very important to go to bed having had a good non- lean- cuisine dinner; a nice cup of cocoa with lots of extra milk and chocolate will help and if the two of you are comfortable in a confined space you could look at a quilt or opened sleeping bag to put on top of you both.
Don't forget warm but non constricting hat/gloves and socks (again dry clean socks, loose...)
Lastly , the mat has to match the temperature too.
A very warm sleeping bag and a cold mat equals a cold night.
Boost your mat with a thin solid rubber type, if you have to.

[icefest]

Have you considered going someplace else.
Those liners are very heavy for the warmth the give (they'll only give you that increase if you mean 14 Fahrenheit)

Taking a double bag should work but the warmth increase will not be additive because you'll compress the insulation in both. Taking a couple of 10-15 degree bags should be fine.
And as GPS guided said, clothes can further increase warmth.

[Moondog55]

You haven't said which SBs you already have but if they are cheaper ones it is likely that the rating they give is the "Survival.Extreme" rating the comfort rating is well above that often by 12 to 15 degrees. Francos advice to check your mattress system first is good advice and the cheapest way to get more warmth out of your system. Another cheap and lightweight way is to use a plastic bag liner as a vapour barrier, sleep close to naked and add the warm layer over the top of you current bag, easy enough to do if you open up the jacket zipper and use a couple of extra buttons or safety pins. Best solution of course is to have a system which has the safety margin needed for Alpine camping.
Are you current bags too big or too small for your build, this can have a bearing on perceived warmth too, too small and the insulation can't loft; too big and you are warming excess space although excess space can be filled with the additional clothing

[polas]

Have you considered going someplace else.

the forecast for Sydney area for next weekend has really cold nights everywhere. I have 3 different trips planned (for different weather conditions) in different regions and it seems it is going to be cold everywhere..

[polas]

You haven't said which SBs you already have but if they are cheaper ones it is likely that the rating they give is the "Survival.Extreme" rating the comfort rating is well above that often by 12 to 15 degrees. Francos advice to check your mattress system first is good advice and the cheapest way to get more warmth out of your system. Another cheap and lightweight way is to use a plastic bag liner as a vapour barrier, sleep close to naked and add the warm layer over the top of you current bag, easy enough to do if you open up the jacket zipper and use a couple of extra buttons or safety pins. Best solution of course is to have a system which has the safety margin needed for Alpine camping.
Are you current bags too big or too small for your build, this can have a bearing on perceived warmth too, too small and the insulation can't loft; too big and you are warming excess space although excess space can be filled with the additional clothing

I have EPE +5c COCOON MICRO (the older model) and I'm not sure how they rated them before. now they rate them for the "lower limit". So far this bag was enough for warm climate here. Two alpine SB will be quite expensive and may not be used very often. That's why I'm looking for some other "one off" kind of solution.

thank you!

[GPSGuided]

the forecast for Sydney area for next weekend has really cold nights everywhere. I have 3 different trips planned (for different weather conditions) in different regions and it seems it is going to be cold everywhere..

Which weekend? This coming one, 19 Oct? I note Katoomba is registering 5 deg min on Fri and Sat but 9 deg on Sunday.

[Moondog55]

Quick sewing machine job and a pile liner perhaps or if the extra weight won't be too much a cheap Doona from home over the top of you both. Spotlight used to sell a cheap prequilted nylon with polyester batting that was quite reasonable for making overbags and liners but all the stock at the moment uses cotton which I can't recommend
I shiver in a similar bag at 15C+

[icefest]

Two 5c bags will get you down at least another 5deg c.

[wayno]

what clothes will you have to wear in the bag? a decent down jacket would be adviseable

[wayno]

also what did you have on your legs in your sleeping bag last time you were cold?
you can get different weight long johns, at least have the heavierweight version or fleece pants or primaloft pants.

[polas]

the forecast for Sydney area for next weekend has really cold nights everywhere. I have 3 different trips planned (for different weather conditions) in different regions and it seems it is going to be cold everywhere..

Which weekend? This coming one, 19 Oct? I note Katoomba is registering 5 deg min on Fri and Sat but 9 deg on Sunday.

yea the coming one.
lithgow is +1 friday night
jenolan (other planned option) is -1 (!) friday night...
we might skip the friday night and only go for two days. sat night seems to be much warmer

cheers

[GPSGuided]

Seriously, with a bag that's uncomfortable at +10 and a struggle with bag + clothing at +5, is there really any point in trying all kinds of add-ons to meet 0 deg nights? I'd say stop all the doubts and just invest in another bag. The insulation of the bag is questionable and the gap is just too wide. Unless there's serious budget tightness, just find a new bag. At this time, you may still catch the very tail end of the end of season sales. Take a walk along Kent St and see. It's probably too late for mail-order if it's this weekend.

[polas]

also what did you have on your legs in your sleeping bag last time you were cold?
you can get different weight long johns, at least have the heavierweight version or fleece pants or primaloft pants.

last time I had some cotton (thick) trousers and fleece top + layers under, warm socks etc. this time I'm planning to take thermals and my winter beanie.
I don't own down jacket... why would I have it in Sydney
maybe my snowboarding jacket will do (but it might be too heavy to be worth carrying). It is supposed to be almost 30 during the day... nice temperature difference!

I still think that extra 1kg for another sleeping bag may be worth it. I'm going to test the idea tonight. not sure the bags are big enough to fit one into the other. Or I could use the extra one as cover on top.

[wayno]

academic recommdnding buyng another bag if you can't afford a bag with the specs you need... i should say if you can get a warmer bag and add clothes as well if the bag isnt the rating you need and or you sleep cold.....

[wayno]

your base layer needs to cling to your body to maximise warmth.

[GPSGuided]

No fund, then to be safe rather than acting as another cold weather guinea pigs, just borrow the extra bag and know you'll have leeway. 1kg is just that, an extra litre of water in weight.

[icefest]

Check if you and your partner can zip bags into each other. Free extra heat.

[polas]

Check if you and your partner can zip bags into each other. Free extra heat.

I will ask my son (16yo) but it may be a bit awkward
Pawel

[icefest]

Ahh, that will teach me to make assumptions.

[GPSGuided]

Ahh, that will teach me to make assumptions.

You should know these as part of your training,
Rule 1: Never assume.
Rule 2: Never say never.

[wayno]

never assume,
you make an *&%$#! out of U and ME

[Spartan]

My advice? If your current gear isn't up to the expected conditions, and you're not prepared/able to acquire gear that is, then you'd best postpone your proposed trip until the weather improves.

All the best.

[Joomy]

they say this add +14 celsius:
http://www.wildearth.com.au/buy/sea-to- ... r/areactex
are they really that good?

No they are not! I have often privately fumed at this product. It's borderline irresponsible to claim that a thin piece of polypropylene/polyester fleece can add "up to" 14 degrees C! It might add 14C if the ambient temperature is +22C, i.e. it could be enough alone for a pleasantly warm night but no way is it going to be warm enough to push +10 bags down to +1. And it would be dangerous to try. That said, bags that are only comfortable to +10 are not 3 season. That's 2 season territory there. 3 season bags should be warm enough down to 0C with extra layers (for an adult male anyway). What sort of mats are you guys using? Are they adequately insulated? If you're cold at 10C with 3 season bags maybe you are losing heat to the ground without knowing.

Certainly taking 2 sleeping bags each should do the trick for a significant weight penalty (as long as they are reasonably warm, but even two summer weight bags should be able to add 10C to your sleep system). But as you say if an extra 1kg each is tolerable then that is the best solution short of buying new gear.

[madmacca]

Ways to get more out of any existing bag:

* have a good (both quality and quantity) meal before going to bed. Digestion releases heat from within.
* improve your ground insulation. A $10 blue foam mat doubled up with your existing mat can substantially improve insulation.
* keep your sleeping bag and clothing dry (this may mean seperate sleep clothing from what you wear during the day)
* heat some water and turn your water bottle into a hot water bottle. Perhaps wrap it in towel/spare jumper to prevent direct skin contact between 80C water bottle and skin.

[McWade]

I have a Thermolite Reactor Extreme. Used it twice in cold conditions. Comfortable as a liner but far too heavy for that purpose alone. Adds very little as far as warmth goes. Probably the biggest waste of money of any single bushwalking piece of gear that I've bought for many years. Might come in handy in place of a sleeping bag on warm summer nights on the coast, but that's the only thing I think I'll ever use it for again.