Unspoken Tent Brands

[glenpandrews]

Hello,

I have been searching for a tent (3 person and 3kg or so) as I am planning on getting back into mountain hiking (Blue Mountains and Kosciusko NP). There are quite a few threads on tents here that discuss quality and well known brands such as Hilleberg, Macpac, WE, Big Agnes, Oneplanet etc. The cheaper brands such as EPE, Vango, Blackwolf, DMH and MSR don't seem to get much of a mention. A couple of questions to throw out there for you...

(1) Are any of these cheaper brands of a level of quality such that they really should be considered for serious hiking (windy conditions, used 3 or 4 times a year for 3 to 5 days at a time, and expected to last a good few years)
(2) Does anyone have any particularly positive or negative experiences to share?
(3) Are any of these brands moving out of the rubbish quality category into a being a more accepted brand. I don't hear much about them, which suggests to me that they either are not yet popular broadly, or aren't appropriate for the kind of user that frequents this forum.
(4) What are the main differences between these cheaper brands and the expensive brands? Seems to me to be weight and vestibule size. I can handle carrying an extra kilo if it saves me a few hundred dollars, but if it is rubbish i'll happily pay the extra $!

Your thoughts appreciated.

Cheers

Glen

[johnw]

1. We have a WE Second Arrow (4 season) as our "mountain tent" (ie Tassie conditions).

2. We also own an EPE Viper. It's a 2 person dome with twin vestibules, about 2.5 kg. I really like it because it's very roomy, relatively lightweight and quick to pitch. I also found that it didn't leak during quite heavy prolonged rain one night. The quality is very good but not quite the same standard as WE and similar brands. However it is definitely not rubbish. We've used it in the Blue Mountains and Southern Highlands a number of times - Wild Dog Mountains, Six Foot Track, Wollangambe Wilderness etc. The main cons are that it's inner pitch first and the design doesn't provide enough overhead protection over the entrances, so you have to be fast if it's raining. That said, I actually prefer it to the Second Arrow due to the superior internal space and headroom. It was the largest 2 person tent we could find at the time (and we looked at many of them ). It also packs down smaller than our other tent. I'd consider it 3+ season but don't know what it's actually rated. I think I paid just under $200 about 3 years ago. I've tentatively got an overnight trip at the end of this month in the Grose Wilderness with a group of other people. I'll be effectively soloing and seriously thinking of taking this tent rather than the WE.

So my advice is thoroughly check out as many tents as possible. Check the quality of the seam sealing, stitching etc but don't necessarily write off cheaper brands if your intended conditions aren't too extreme. Can't help with 3 person version advice though, I think there may be fewer of them available in the cheaper brands but you'd need to research that.

BTW MSR are in the higher quality/high price tag bracket and I think at least some of their range is 4 season. The EPE Viper is similar to the MSR Hubba Hubba which we also looked at. The Hubba Hubba is a superior design and quality and 1/2 kg lighter, but had a lot of mesh inside (new model may be better) and was at least 3 times the price. I've seen the Luxe rip off of it which looks just as good to me and is much cheaper. Both of these are 2 person though.

[JohnM]

MSR isn't cheap.

I've seen a few cheap tents in the bush (even made the mistake of buying one myself once) and what you realise is that what they skimp on are all the 'little' things - but when those little things add up, they're a bit fat pain in the bum.

Gross generalisation, but cheap tents can tend to:

Have poor ventilation, so you wake up at 4am with the inside of the tent dripping with your own bodily fluids.

Be heavy and bulky. Not so much of a problem if you don't mind carrying stuff.

Not be thought-out very well. Vestibules not big enough, no storage pockets inside, etc.

Skimp on fabric, stitching, sealing of seams. Basically the things that give you longevity.

But a lot of these things are inconveniences. If you're going to be walking in Kozzie NP, you have to factor in the risk that one night you might be hit with weather so severe that it could render a poorly-designed and constructed tent dangerous. It's a low risk, but it could happen.

My advice would be to hire out a good tent for your first couple of trips (in Melb you can get a good one from Bogong for about $30 for a long weekend) and try it out - see what you like and don't like.

Then, if you're sure you're going to be using a tent for years to come, invest in a good one. My Macpac Olympus for example, is about 10 years old and has been everywhere: Victoria, Tassie, NSW, NZ, Patagonia... snow, rain, extreme heat... and it's as good as the day I got it. Not cheap, but great value. So far, it's probably cost me about $3 a night.

But that 'cheap' tent I got for the kids when they were first coming on walks with me... used it once and never again. It cost me about $40 a night.

[johnw]

and Kosciusko NP

I overlooked that requirement. I've yet to camp out there but have done many long day trips along the main range and other areas. The weather can become as extreme as Tasmania at its worst. Personally I would not use less than a high quality robust 4 season tent up there. My comments assume use in the Blue Mountains and similar areas, which do occasionally dish out some weather but not usually as severe as KNP.

Vango from memory is also not cheap. I looked into them at one point but couldn't find a local stockist where I could inspect one.

[glenpandrews]

Thanks for your detailed comments, very much appreciated.

[Darren]

Glen
Years ago I bought an outer limit starlight for 100 bucks. It is reasonably light, surprisingly durable and a wind shedding design. A few years ago I modified it so I could use the fly only and took my wife on her first extended multi day hike and did the overland track with it. It worked well.
I suggest giving any of these tents ago. If you get some different pegs. Fit lighter guys and tie loops you will have something very suitable for your needs. It’s very hard for someone who wants to get into hiking with every one telling you have to buy expensive gear.
Just get out there
Darren

[Franco]

Glen
Not sure when it will arrive here but have a look at the Luxu Hurricane, should do well for what you are after.
http://www.luxeoutdoor.com/eng/catalog- ... th=/12/153
the specs from Luxe are pretty accurate. There is a video clip of it as well.
If you prefer outer pitch first, Luxe have the Oasis, video clip only under "new tent 2009"
A retail outlet here for them is:
http://www.hikelight.com.au/
Disclaimer , I know the guys at Luxe and at Hikelight, but there is no financial gain for me , it's just a hobby.
Franco

[sthughes]

I've got an Outer Limits (DMH) Vertex and it seems pretty good. http://www.outdoorsupplies.co.nz/outerlimits_vertex.htm I'm sure I only paid about $250 for mine though about 3-4 years ago. The only things I find a bit cheap are little things like it has the velcro bits to attach the fly to the poles (like a lot of tents) but the top ones of these are positioned where the poles are in sleeves (from the inner tent) so I have had to cut holes in the sleeves to secure the fly properly. The floor is good but nothing like my Macpac Microlight floor. One of the zips is sticking a bit but not bad. Finally the first time I had it in really heavy rain earlier this year it did mist a bit which was dissapointing. It's also a tad heavy but it is a very spacious 2 man tent.
So apart from the misting (old age perhaps) I'm happy with it and would be happy to use it in the highlands as a 3+ season tent (with all 4 guys in use).

[sthughes]

Having said all that if it was going to cost me $400 I'd spend the extra $100 and get a Macpac Stellar in all honesty.

[Son of a Beach]

It’s very hard for someone who wants to get into hiking with every one telling you have to buy expensive gear.
Just get out there
Darren

Too true. You don't have to buy expensive, but I think you should aim for quality. Sometimes the two go hand in hand, but it ain't necessarily so. My old two man tunnel tent cost me $90 (in the late 80's), and it lasted me nearly 20 years before it tore badly in a storm on Shelf Camp. The crappy fibre-glass poles both broke early on in the tent's life, but once replaced with metal poles, it was fantastic. It did seep water through the floor and fly a bit, so you had to cater for that (silicone spray, every second trip, and ground sheet). You really do get what you pay for, but if you are sure you can manage the deficiencies, and more importantly, that the deficiencies aren't going to result in danger, then you don't have to get the best of everything.

(My new poles did break again - but only when I'd lent it to somebody else who broke them and didn't tell me. I then found myself in the bush with a tent with no poles! yikes! Thankfully the nearby dogwood trees had branches that worked a tread - just the right amount of flexibility in them. A bit too flexible at their thin ends, and not quite flexible enough at their thick ends, resulting in a slightly lopsided hoop, but not bad overall).

[Darren]

A Little while ago i was after a bit more heavy duty tent to take my kids in so i wouldn’t have to worry about busting zips or netting. I ended up with a 08 hubba hubba for $200 us plus shipping on eBay when the dollars were nearly the same. Its a little heavy, has its problems, but fitted the bill and wasnt too expensive.
The Australian Rupee isn’t too good at the moment but you should at least try eBay
Darren

[Darren]

G’Day Nik
Bushwalking is like many other pastimes. It’s difficult and expensive to get started. Can you imaging taking the step from day walks to overnight and the potential cost involved. You could go to your local hiking shop and have some kid in a fleece and trendy shoes show you all the must have essentials. Even if they were experienced you would at best only get there views.
Then once you got your gear you may find some of it’s not quite for you, or worse, hiking is not quite for you. Then you have gear you have to sell.
If you don’t have mates that hike you’re probably best off buying a very cheap tent, pack and stove cooking set. Then just do some easy stuff to see if you actually like it.
Hopefully the answer will be yes. Then you can up date as you develop you tastes.
The people on this forum should try hard not to come across as elitists (I’m not saying we do) and help.
Maybe as part of your new project you could include a ‘no bucks’ entry level gear list to help others get started.
This has drifted a little from glens original topic and probably doesn’t apply to him but if you buy some cheap gear and only expect it last a year or to until you find out what you really like you may even save money on unnecessary purchases.
Just a thought
Darren

[Son of a Beach]

Darren - Yes, I was trying to totally agree with you, merely adding the caveat that people should aim to be aware of any potential increased risks with inferior gear, both in recommendations and in purchases. NB: I'm not saying that cheaper gear necessarily means inferior or riskier, but that it can be that way, and people should take it into account.

Other than that, I'm in full agreement. A complete bushwalking kit is very expensive which can be prohibitive to getting acquainted with the pastime. If the total cost can be reduced by starting out with some cheaper gear, without going for something that's so crappy as to fall apart the first time it sees dangerous weather, then that's great.

Maybe as part of your new project you could include a ‘no bucks’ entry level gear list to help others get started.

The inventories project itself doesn't include brands/models for the built in items, but people can optionally add these to their own inventories. However, your suggestion is a good one. If I understand it correctly, there are two things we could do here:

• Make up a good entry-level gear list for the wiki?
• Make up a 'minimal' default list for the inventory system?

[glenpandrews]

Hi All,

From the discussion above there seem to be a few tents of good quality at a reasonable price. Thanks for your help; i'll report back once I have one chosen and tested a few times.

Cheers

Glen

[Darren]

Nik
You have it exactly. Maybe we could get the ball rolling by starting a thread “ newbie gear list” for example and put a guide that cost is the major driver and people could submit items based on there experience. You could add the caveat that the gear only has to last for say 40 nights, and the areas would be more like those a new hiker might hike.ie. Maybe the N/E or the overland track as it has the option of huts.
You could pick a figure and everyone could aim to keep below it. What this might also draw out is peoples little handy hints and stuff they have adapted from normal life to use hiking.
Just a thought
Darren

[Joe]

I will be sleeping in my DMH Oberon this weekend Been very happy with it so far. I treat it as 3 season as it is mesh inner...but its well built and hasn't let me down yet.

[glenpandrews]

Hello All,

Just closing the loop on this thread. I ended up getting an MSR Mutha Hubba and testing it out with the kids (7 and 9) down in the Blue Gum Forest in the Blue Mountains NP (Down Perry's lookdown and back up Govett's Leap).

No surprises that the tent performed well given (1) It's a pretty good tent vs my somewhat morphed requirements, and (2) The Blue Gum Forest isn't exactly a strenuous and testing location

Anyway, I didn't end up where I started regarding tents, but thats what happened and I am pretty content.
Cheers all for the discussion, help and advice.

Glen

[johnw]

Just closing the loop on this thread. I ended up getting an MSR Mutha Hubba and testing it out with the kids (7 and 9) down in the Blue Gum Forest in the Blue Mountains NP (Down Perry's lookdown and back up Govett's Leap).

No surprises that the tent performed well given (1) It's a pretty good tent vs my somewhat morphed requirements, and (2) The Blue Gum Forest isn't exactly a strenuous and testing location

Hi Glen, What a small world! I just realised after reading your post that we were camped almost next to each other on the weekend at Blue Gum Forest (Acacia Flat). I was one of the motley group of half a dozen bush regeneration volunteers with NPWS. I remember admiring your Mutha Hubba at one point but couldn't remember which model it was. It was backpacking tent city down there on Saturday night, with an astonishing array of them. I dunno about in and out of BGF not being strenuous and testing , it certainly felt strenuous lugging my overweight pack back up Perrys Track yesterday afternoon . But we had also been scrub bashing down Govetts Creek from Junction Rock for half the weekend looking for weeds to eradicate, so were a bit tired.

I think you made a good choice of tent for that type of location. MSR tents always strike me as high quality and lightweight, and that model looks pretty spacious.

[glenpandrews]

Hi John,

Wow, the saying "It's a small world" doesn't go far enough! That an absolutely uncanny coincidence

Great work you guys are doing down there. When we got home you all featured highly in my daughters report back to their mother on the weekend, and she thought it something worth getting involved in in future (she is 4 months pregnant now, so no bushwalking).

Well when I referred to not being strenuous and testing I guess I was talking about the conditions on the tent at Acacia Flat, because my legs certainly would not let me call Perrys Lookdown or Govetts Leap mild A mild case of thunderbird-itus this morning actually (walking around like virgil).

Anyway, thanks for letting me know that was you at Acacia flat, an interesting yarn to tell in future, and maybe we'll bump into each other again in the area in future.

Cheers

Glen

[johnw]

Great work you guys are doing down there. When we got home you all featured highly in my daughters report back to their mother on the weekend, and she thought it something worth getting involved in in future (she is 4 months pregnant now, so no bushwalking).

Glen, Your girls were very well mannered young ladies and looked like they were having a great time with Dad . I remember you were all chatting with our group briefly over breakfast Sunday morning before we headed back to the creek. If you can spare the time it's worth getting involved either with the NPWS program (runs twice a year) or any of the local bushcare groups in the mountains (and elsewhere). We found and treated blackberry, gorse, broom, privet and honeysuckle among others on the weekend and these remain an ongoing threat in the Grose Valley region. Can also be great fun as evidenced by the tall stories, gear comparisons and demos of home made pepsi can stoves by a few seasoned bushwalkers on Saturday night .

my legs certainly would not let me call Perrys Lookdown or Govetts Leap mild A mild case of thunderbird-itus this morning actually (walking around like virgil).

Yeah, I know. My upper thighs are killing me . I walked a similar circuit (Govetts > Pulpit Rock > Perrys > Govetts) as a day trip before Christmas. I think the walk up to Govetts is actually more strenuous than Perrys as the steeply stepped track seems to go on forever.

See you in the bush!