Jacket still wetting out after treatment.

[Hiking Noob]

Hi guys and girls, first time poster here.

I have a Macpac Prophet XPD that shed it's DWR coating quite quickly and I left it untreated for quite some time(not sure if this would alter treatment results).

Today I used Granger's Two in One and followed the instructions exactly.

I figured I'd give it a test and it seems as good as new(which wasn't great) but the fabric that has more of a texture still seems to wet out while the smoother fabric seems to repel the water quite well.

Could I do the process again or add a spay on treatment to the textured fabric?

I'm a fatty and use the jacket mainly while repairing MTB trails in the rain so I need it to breath or I may as well take it off.

I would love to buy a better jacket but I've just bought loads of gear for my first stroll through the wilderness.

Thanks for any assistance.

[slparker]

a quick cynical reply... that is normal in my experience. a jacket lasts about a day before wetting out from where you now have an expensive plastic bag. It's still waterproof but vapour permeability (from inside to outside) disappears. Hence the need for good ventilation from pitzips etc. I believe that the newer fabrics (i.e. neoshell) allow air to pass through the membrane which seems like progress.

Wayno normally replies to these things as he has a lot of knowledge about membrane technology. I don't bother restoring the DWR on my walking jacket these days as it seems pointless to delay the inevitable by a few hours (and yes it's an expensive reputable brand) but i do on my softshell as it's a daywalk/ski only garment and it's nice being dry-ish.

[Imprint]

Try some nikwax instead, I treated a jacket with the grangers 2 in 1 and it did nothing at all.

Nikwax seems to the do the job a lot better. Also before you treat it, give it a good wash then dry in the dryer. Test it and see if it makes a difference, then treat it with the nikwax.

I sweat like a beast, and treat my jackets on the regular and Nikwax seems to work best for me. Sometimes just a good wash and dry will do the trick too.

[Strider]

My Macpac Traverse is the same - seems to be a standard feature. However, aren't the thicker shoulder patches etc actually stitched over the top of the regular fabric?

[DarrenM]

Yep, try the nixwax tech wash then the tx direct.

I have a very old shell that gets hammered and use the tech wash occasionally then the tx spray on.

I even buy the cheap cans of silicon spray and go nuts as its old gear anyway. Brand of jacket and membranes become irrelevant after many years so do the best you can with the Nixwax products.

[highercountry]

I emailed Grangers Australian distributor a while ago with a question about re-proofing a 20 year old GoreTex jacket.
Their response was to wash it thoroughly and then directly spray on their Performance Proofer product rather than wash it in. This gives a heavier coating.
I haven't worn the jacket for anything more than the odd rainy day walk in the park but I tested it with the garden hose. Water beads off the surface and doesn't wet the fabric. Not sure how the coating would cope with heavy bush use or for how long it will last.
I read somewhere or another that Grangers products are superior to Nikwax, that's why I tried their stuff. I can't really say or prove either.

[Hiking Noob]

My Macpac Traverse is the same - seems to be a standard feature. However, aren't the thicker shoulder patches etc actually stitched over the top of the regular fabric?

Does yours have pockets that turn into swimming pools? I spent ages trying to find a jacket that had all the features of my long retired Gondwana jacket, the little swimming pools are an awesome feature, my phone really loved it's dip I'm not sure if it is sweat going through the one way fabric or water coming in the zip, Macpac said they couldn't guarantee the waterproofness of the zips so I'll assume it's that.

Thanks for the help guys, I was looking for Nikwax but MD and Macpac only sold Grangers and my local store had another brand on order but could no longer get it(forgot the brand).

Finding the perfect jacket is hard, and expensive, I think Marmot had almost all the features I wanted in a jacket.

[wayno]

DWR performance = how long is a piece of string.
Ironing is supposed to help after treating with DWR,
some brands heat treat their fabrics with DWR at the factory. and it depends on the chemical used. the ones that stay on the longest are the most toxic and persistent in th environment, and in your body, the longer chain C8 molecules that get used, so you can't win,
the industry is moving towards less toxic C6 chain chemicals . westcomb are also moving to use high tenacity polyester instead of nylon shells in their upcoming range out some time in the next year., the DWR chemicals adheres to the polyester better... they dont sell westcomb down under and its not cheap, but its a well made brand,
i find how slick the fabric itself is can have a big effect on how well the water runs off.
the thing is also, when its raining its hard for the moisture to move through the membrane anyway because the outside air humidity is maxed out and won't absorb any moisture vapour, aka in heavy rain you can't win... the real benefits of moisture permeable membranes comes in between showers... how much moisture a garment can move through the membrane is a figure generated from lab tests with constant conditions... and the length of the tests dont stretch all day long, the longest i've heard of is five hours... so good luck after that time with a jacket on..
coming from a generally damp country like NZ, I dont have high expectations of DWR doing its job.. sometimes the best you can hope for is a windy day that will dry your jacket off between rainshowers so it can start moving moisture again, oh and physical venting on the jacket, thats far more reliable than any DWR...
just be wary of any technology that tries to blind you with science saying its superior, its usually more expensive as well. caviat emptor (buyer beware)
not that the latest technology isnt necessary a good thing, just dont expect it to be a lot better than whats gone before it..

[Aidan]

An interesting thread.
Today I bought a pair of Resolution AP pants at my local Macpac store.
They are a Pertex material I believe.
I hope they are reasonable and make for a working combo with my Event Showers Pass Elite 2 cycle touring jacket which has good venting built into the design.
(Well good enough when the temp is below 10 degrees - I have few expectations when its higher than this).
http://www.amazon.com/Showers-Pass-Mens ... B009M353HQ
I tend to simply utilise a base layer underneath wet weather gear in an attempt to keep an even temp that neither too hot or too cold.
I'm currently contemplating a Copeland for walking and general low aerobic use.
It would be an easier purchase decision if it had armpit zips.
Gotta say of what I've seen so far with regards wet weather gear, I'm not a fan of the exposed zips nor the rubberised zips having seen their failure on backpacks.
My last Macpac wet weather combo had the zips covered by fabric which design I prefer.

[Hiking Noob]

Cheers for the replies guys, it's weird to see well constructed replies on a forum......

Wayno, some helpful points there although I think a decent jacket can still work pretty well in the rain and I notice when mine are wetting out as they cling to me. I you see a footy player in the rain they will often have water vapour coming off them, sure they are drenched but they are still able to evaporate some moisture. As I am a fat sweaty person my theory is that if the outside temp is 25deg and if under the jacket is 30+ the relative humidity in there should be a bit lower helping to shed some sweat.

I spend a good few hours swinging tools in the rain and my mind wanders when I get bored, hahaha.

I still have to buy some rain pants for the OT, I really really hate long pants and wished I'd joined this forum and read about running quick drying shoes/boots instead of waterproof boots then I could have run shorts the whole time

[wayno]

Football players don't use waterproof clothing. They are just windproof the heat they generate causes the vapour to rise. Moisture can move through a wind breaker more easily than a rain shell

[Hiking Noob]

Yeah sorry, a lack of sleep has turned my brain in to a cabbage, was just meaning you see them evaporating water in 100% humidity, mostly off their melon.

Grabbed some Granger's spray on stuff today if that doesn't work I'll grab a new jacket when funds permit.
I think this looks spot on for my needs, angled hand warmer pockets with storm flaps would be better but hey you can't get everything you want- http://www.paramo.co.uk/en-gb/garments/ ... ALTAIIMENS

[Avatar]

You might want to read this review first:
https://airdrierambler.wordpress.com/reviews/gear-reviews-clothing/paramo-alta-ii-jacket/

and some interesting discussion re Paramo reproofing here:
http://alansloman.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/on-being-warm-and-dry.html

also, of interest but getting dated, is:
http://bushwalkingnsw.org.au/clubsites/FAQ/FAQ_Rainwear.htm
The Atsko Permanent Water Guard spray gets a good hearing but no-one stocks it. (Hello simonm! )
It seems the Wash, which is available locally, may be even more important in being better at preparing fabric to accept various DWR treatments. It is apparently favoured by deer hunters since it has no fluorescents, scents etc.

[Hiking Noob]

Awesome, thanks very much for that.

Maybe a Jack Wolfskin Scandium.......
Picking a jacket is stupidly difficult, 10yrs ago it was easy, they weren't made to look pretty, just to work.

[Hiking Noob]

That is a big picture!

I have been searching for somewhere local to buy a Jack Wolfskin jacket in Oz but it seems the only seller here is a scam site, it looks pretty well done but there are a few details on the site that don't add up. Security certificate thingies aren't right only one works, the returns address is in the US and has Jack Wolfskin as the street name, a couple of jackets have Jink Wolfzhua printed on them and the ip search also returns more dodgy sites-

Reverse IP Lookup Results — 23 domains hosted on IP address 173.252.233.182
Domain View Whois Record Screenshots
1. 925jewelry.us
2. abercrombie-stores.com
3. abercrombieoutlet.clothing
AND 20 other domains…

I won't paste the dodgy site but if you search for Jack Wolfskin you will find it.


Also noticed that Macpac now state that the jackets have water resistant zips not waterproof which is good of them.

[Ellobuddha]

How old is the jacket?

Try taking it back.

I was pleasantly suprised when I sent my failing Event jacket back to Rab and they replaced it with a brand new one. Thats awesome service. As a result I,support them strongly and felt very safe purchasing more of their products.

Macpac should back their product.

[Hiking Noob]

It's over a year old now but I shot them an email after maybe three months of ownership but never tried to get my money back. I did throw it in the drier(my iron runs on magic and only has one setting so I was to scared too use it) and it ended up being worse than it was before going in the drier.

I'm sure I could have asked for a replacement or a refund but I'm just used to gear not living up to expectations, however since then pretty much all the gear I have bought from Macpac has performed poorly so I think I'm going to spend more money with Mountain Designs. Their wicking shirts are the worst I own(Columbia Omni Freez is the best by far), bought some shorts that felt quite durable last week and went for a ride in them yesterday to find that any point that touched the seat is already pilling, I know they aren't riding shorts but it's not something I have seen before on any type of short. I do like their cotton shirts but the sizing is crazy, in one I'm an XXL and in another I'm a large but hey they are good quality so I can deal with that, the poly thermals seem to work well too but then again so does my $20 Gondwana one.

[wayno]

forgot to mention, i have two macpac raincoats, the resoution and the traverse, the DWR on the resolution doesnt shed water for long at all, the traverse, most of the fabric has a sleeker surface and the dwr lasts longer, but i havent subjected it to the same amount of rain as the resolution and i'm not game to, they have both been relegated to around town jackets. lack of vents on them was also an issue. i'd read about several other people with problems and no resolution with macpac, the fabric was also doing something funny developing a golf ball like surface to the texture, it may have been delamination of the membran that others had issues with as well on the earlier macapac event jackets... i didnt want a replacement jacket which was the only other option i saw given to some others.

[Hiking Noob]

Wow, that's a couple of expensive 'round town rain jackets!

Do you have any recommendations in brand/model for a durable breathable rain jacket? Jack Wolfskin is out as they have a jacket at a great price on their site but won't ship to Oz, it has everything I want excluding flaps over the pocket zips.

My impossible requirements list

The obvious first-
Waterproof
Breathable
Textured lining to reduce clinging when sweaty
Pit Zips, would prefer non rubberised zips as they work better one handed
Dropped tail
At least one fully waterproof pocket, also like downward facing flaps over pockets as they keep water out unlike fancy zips.
A good hood adjustment system, one vertical and one horizontal ripcord is my fav but the Macpac Prophet XPD system isn't too bad.

Sadly in Newcastle we only have Mountain Designs that sell brands other than home brand gear like the other chain stores.

EDIT, there is Anaconda too but that shop is a shamozzle, it just looks like one of those dodgy pop up sale places.

[wayno]

how heavy do you want to go?
fully waterproof pockets virtually don't exist.
westcomb revenant is their most durable model, apoc their next model down
rab latok, neo guide,
arcteryx SV, but not cheap at all
the north face point five
OR are usually better priced. Furio, mentor, maximus
Kathmandu alopex
montane. alpine endurance.
mountain equipment - very expensive, they have some very good models and one with waterproof zips..
mountain hardware. have various models.
theres also mont and one planet

[Hiking Noob]

Cheers for all the suggestions wayno, the westcomb stuff is really well priced considering it is made in Canada.
Heavy, do you mean overall weight or something that I know nothing about. If it's under 1kg I'm happy, nothing worse than fatties with all the light weight gear.
I was really surprised that North Face seem to have quite a few jackets with flaps over the pockets, I assumed that stuff was just for urban hikers...?

I will go through that list in the next few days, I shot Sherpa an email asking about their jackets, I like stuff that's not made in China(or at least can prove they pay a decent wage) but I know I'll probably end up with another Chinese jacket.

I really like the look of the Mont gear and being Aussie designed makes it more appealing, the Longitude looks great but the interior doesn't look as textured as other models they do, so I'm worried it may get a bit clingy.

[wayno]

flaps can mean its just fashion wear or ski wear
weight anything from 200gm to around 800, more than that isnt a hiking jacket

[Hiking Noob]

After both Granger's treatments I'd say 70% of the jacket had wet out in under two hours of walking at maybe 15deg so although it was pretty much a plastic poncho the conditions made it feel okay.

I don't mind getting wet but I'm not a massive fan of having to get in to a wet jacket the next morning so before the next trip it's time for a new one. I was amazed by the number of independent camping stores in Launceston and I checked out the Mont jackets and really liked the plain Jane look of them and the good length but sadly they didn't have the model I was after.

[Moondog55]

I have used various reproofing DWR types over the years and have settled on Nikwax as being the most reliable. But you do need to wash according to the instructions before trying any DWR replenishment. I still use a WPB jacket for the snow [Goretex Combat and therefore stupidly heavy but I'm tough on my gear] but for everything else I've gone back to using a simply water proof jacket in proofed nylon or a poncho
For the army ECWCS parka I washed and cleaned, then used the wash-in product and allowed it to dry then I used the spray on and allowed that to dry then used the tumble dryer to properly set it, despite the instructions I don't think Nikwax sets effectively without the extra heat, but I do use the LOW setting and only for 10 minutes.
The most important thing is to get the jacket properly clean first and that can mean rinsing 3 or 4 times.
Also for me it's a yearly thing and like my sleeping bags I wash my winter gear when we get the first heatwave of summer

[wayno]

use a cleaning detergent specifically designed for waterproof shells first. they have no additives in them that remain behind on the shell. normal commercial washing detergents will leave a residue behind on the surface especially anything with aromatics in it.. they stuff the breathability of rainshell membranes./

[Hiking Noob]

Thanks Wayno, I did use regular soap the first time but I was fairly certain the instructions said not to use much and rinse twice. The Macpac site says -Warm machine wash on gentle cycle using pure soap or Nikwax Tech Wash® (do not use biological products) for the new jackets.

I'm just going to retire it, it still got water in the pockets on the OLT and the wire for the hood poked out one end from my poor packing technique, I was slightly surprised that the wire wasn't doubled back or fit with a sleeve to reduce the chance of it popping through.

[Suz]

I have double treated my Patagonia jacket and it didn't work. Don't remember which brand of waterproofer I used, but I washed, dried and ironed it in twice to no avail. If your treatment doesn't work a 2nd time, you are not alone. I caved and bought a new jacket.

[Chezza]

One problem is that most washing machines at home have leftover detergent in them. This can negate the whole point in using pure soap or the branded wash solutions.

I wash and treat all my gear in the bathtub or sink by hand. I also use the spray-on DWR, and do that in a clean bathtub, multiple clothes at a time. The bathtub catches the run-off so that one bottle goes further. Just wear gloves and spread it around by hand. Luckily, we rarely use the tub for bathing in.

I then collect what liquid is left over and pan for gold.

[Hiking Noob]

Good point, didn't really think of that, will keep the bath beading water too

I have been OS and was going to get a Jack Wolfskin but ran out of time to get one posted so I just ordered a MD Nimbus, Gore Tex pro for $250 seemed like too good a deal to pass up-

[Hiking Noob]

Welllll, that was rubbish, quality looked fine but the fit was for an orang-utan and you could park a bus in the hood.

Why is it so hard? So I figure I may as well save and buy exactly what I want which will either be a Mont Thunderbolt-



Or if I somehow come in to some real cash I'll get a super awesome looking Canadian made Arcteryx Theta AR-
It looks pretty much perfect-