From the ground up part II

[the_camera_poser]

Ok- Tax time is coming around again, and it's time to consider building my hiking gear collection. I've got all dry-weather type gear that is useless for Tasmania, so I'm basically starting from scratch. It needs to be suitable for 3 season use in Tassie- I don't forsee us hiking in the winter for a whle at least.

Now I like to get away, and I can definitely see the Walls, the OT and a lot of the other shorter hikes around here in our future, but I'm definitely not going to be doing the South Coast walk anytime soon, or anything like that. Also, they budget is supremely tight, but I need to make sure I have the gear I need to make sure my daughter is safe out there.

Also, I'm the family pack mule, and while I'm built for the job, I'd also like to keep the weight down to a minimum.

Here's what I need:

1) A 4 season, three person hiking tent, or if not 4 season, at least up to Spring and Autumn in the high country.

2) A Man's expedition-sized pack

3) A smaller woman's-sized pack

4) A man's sleeping bag, probably -5 (I HATE being hot) (I was going to go synthetic, for cheapness' sake)

5) A woman's bag, probably -10 or -20

6) A child's bag, also -10 or -20

7) Man, woman and child's gaiters

Sleeping mats (I was going to go for those inflatable ones- Insulmat Ethers I think they are)

Please feel freeto advise on models/brands/sources for all of this stuff. I dread to think what it is going to cost....

[the_camera_poser]

For the tents, Wilderness Equipment's First Arrow looks good, but much dearer than I'd like to spend... I'd go for the CIRque, but 5kg is a bit too much for the mule to carry.

[the_camera_poser]

I think this would be the tent.....

http://www.rei.com/product/762799

[Son of a Beach]

Personally, I think that your sleeping bags should be more towards the -10 end than the -20 end of your womens bag range. Although Tassie does get some extremes of weather, they rarely get much below -10, except on the tops of mountains. If you cater for -20, you'll swelter in your bags 99% of the time (even with the bag unzipped). You can always wear more clothes on the few nights when it does hit the extreme -15 or so.

(What's the coldest temperature ever recorded in Tasmania? I'm guessing it's not much colder than -15 on one of the mountains somewhere.)

[the_camera_poser]

sweaty women make poor tent companions. Thanks Nik!

[Joe]

I cant recommend the Coleman Avior II or III tent enough. For family use the Avior III is ideal....they are solid inner (no mesh) integral pitch, well built and cheap. I know a few people with this tent and it stands up to a fair bit of abuse. I have a DMH which I am happy with...but it is mesh inner....I rekon if i was buying again I would go the coleman for the extra warmth afforded by solid inner and also when condensation forms it doesnt drip back in with solid like it does with mesh. Working in the industry I get to see a lot of different tents and by far the best value tent Ive seen is the coleman Avior. If you can find it the Coleman Epsilon tent is the generation before the Avior and it is better still...but the Avior is a cracker of a tent.

Pack wise for your partner check out the Berghaus GR 45+ packs...good retailers should have it on a good special as its a runout item. I have one for daywalks and for my wife to carry when she comes along and its a great pack. I carry the Wilderness Equipment Breakout which is their budget canvas pack. It has the same harness as all the other WE packs which is sweet its just a touch smaller at 75 litre. Its a bit 75 litre though. It will hold every bit as much as some of the competitions 85litre packs.

Sleeping Bag wise Mountain hardwre make a very nice synthetic light weight small bag which is reasonably cheap...but not in the very cheap end of things. I just bougt myself a Stoney Creek Black Stag 750 Sleeping bag which is a down bag wiht waterproof outer. Its ideal for cold conditions and quite a bit cheaper than the top end bags. Its top quality down, lofts up huge and being built for hunters its tough as nails. Comes wiht a great stuff sack too. You should be able to find these bags at Allgoods stores statewide.

Gaiters.....don't as me I like my quaggies...but If I was buying again I would have a crack at the WE Bush Gatiers just to see how they go. Im about to buy my wife new gaiters...might see if my old Quaggies fit her so I can try the bush gatiers

[the_camera_poser]

excellent leads- thanks!

[corvus]

I would also suggest you check out the WE Breakout Pack and WE Gaiters that TWF mentioned and concur with SoaB that a -10 S/bag would be suitable for your Wife in fact I suspect a -5 would do the job if it is a "quality" one.

If you purchase down bags make sure that they have a water resistant shell because despite all "the best laid plans etc".

Children's Gaiters Torpeako?? was the brand I got for mine and they did the job dont know if they are still available .
c

[the_camera_poser]

I've been looking at these Roman Palm Passport Bags- rated to -5, you can zip two together (one for each girl), and adding a fleece liner into the works. Will DIY fleece lines work as well as the fancy thermolite ones?

I'll have a look at your recommendations, but here's what I've come up with so far:

Tent: EPE Hawk 3 (3-4 season, but I really doubt I'd go anywhere too far from an emergency shelter with a 5 yo in tow)- at $300, it's hard to say no to

Pack for me: Wilderness Equipment Mountain Expedition Pack (something like 105 lt capacity) for the family pack mule- I like that it doubles as an emergency bivy, in case the girls kick me out of the tent, and that the lid converts into a waist pack.

Pack for wife: I have a good quality Caribee internal frame pack that used to belong to my step-son. It'd do her nicely, though not waterproof. Maybe give here the tent and food to carry in it, with a pack liner. That Breakout looks nice too- a fair bit bigger than what she has (60 litre from memory), and probably better suspended. I could probably wrangle one from school for a test- I tihnk that's what they use.

Sleeping mats- I have some crappy old heavy ones that will do the trick, but maybe I'll go for those insulted inflatable jobs. The one part of hiking I dislike is waking up bruised from rocks and roots.

As for the gaiters, I'll have a look.

[johnw]

Tent: EPE Hawk 3 (3-4 season, but I really doubt I'd go anywhere too far from an emergency shelter with a 5 yo in tow)- at $300, it's hard to say no to

I have an EPE Viper as a second tent (3 season/2 person). Quality is approaching the more expensive brands IMHO. I like it because it's spacious for 2, not too heavy and packs reasonably small. I'd say the Hawk is worth a look at least.

Pack for me: Wilderness Equipment Mountain Expedition Pack (something like 105 lt capacity) for the family pack mule- I like that it doubles as an emergency bivy, in case the girls kick me out of the tent, and that the lid converts into a waist pack.

I've had that pack for about 18 months and very happy with it. Not the lightest but well made with a good comfortable harness that carries well and can handle a big load. It's not waterproof though; the bivy idea is maybe chest high for a smaller person. You would need extra upper body protection and a waterproof liner to keep rain out. Bivy is mainly intended for snow use I think. I used mine last weekend on an overnight trip, including using the waist pack for a side trip largely off track, which worked well. The pack is also a bit cheaper than similar WE canvas models.

Sleeping mats- maybe I'll go for those insulted inflatable jobs. The one part of hiking I dislike is waking up bruised from rocks and roots.

Me too. I have an Insulmat Ether Thermo 6 which is a lightweight inflatable. I like it and find it comfortable but not everyone will like the tapered mummy shape. A companion on last weekend's trip showed me his inflatable Exped Synmat (rectangular shape), which he swears by. It didn't seem too heavy and looked pretty generously sized.

[the_camera_poser]

John, is the Mountain Expedition Pack fairly water resistant? Does it need a liner in mist or light rain?

[sthughes]

I wouldn't go anywhere in inclemet weather without a pack liner. Doesn't the Mountain Expedition have a large "waterproof" zip on one side? Anyway on our last overnighter we had a near new "waterproof" One Planet pack with a puddle in the bottom at the end of the day and have also seen a near new WE Karinji quite wet inside on a previous walk.
Particularly if you have down gear it just isn't worth the risk. I have a S2S pack liner - seems very robust and waterproof and gives peace of mind (my pack is a DMH Ambassador - DO NOT get one of these!)
Note the rating of -5 on the Roman is an 'Extreme' rating. So it isn't designed to be comfy at that temp. I have a Roman bag rated to -8 and have been cold at a fair bit higher temperature than that, and I'm not a cold sleeper. Kathmandu have a sale on some of their sleeping bags at the moment (as do MD and Macpac). They are more expensive but down filled, rated to European Standards, some have a water resistant shell and I've never been cold (or even cool) in my Moonraker (too warm but may be okay for a female). At sale prices I think they are good value. If you are concerned with weight a down bag is almost always warmer per kg. But look for a good loft rating. Also a good fit makes a bag much warmer - the more room to move the colder it will be.
Tent looks good. MD have tents 40% off at the moment so you could get a Kaon (2.5kg) for Under $400, if you want to save some weight and get some more space. But not a huge water head rating on the fly.
Yeah I thought the WE Breakout TWF had up at the Anniverasary looked good - and I'll swear it's bigger than my so called 95l pack! I could be wrong of course.

[johnw]

John, is the Mountain Expedition Pack fairly water resistant? Does it need a liner in mist or light rain?

TCP, yes it will resist light showers. But once the outer fabric becomes saturated it will start to seep through pretty quickly to the inside. WE claims "minimal water absorption" but that's a bit of a motherhood statement. I agree with sthughes, and always carry a pack liner (or use dry bags), even if it's only a large garbage bag. Particularly so in Tasmania, where it can quickly alternate between sunshine and a downpour.

Doesn't the Mountain Expedition have a large "waterproof" zip on one side?

Yes it does, although I think that type of zip is probably better classified as "weatherproof". I don't think any of them are truly fully waterproof. It would be at least as w/resistant as the pack fabric (probably better). I find it useful to easily get at things that can be safely left unprotected outside the liner.

[Franco]

Tent
My interest is with solo tents but after reading the above I thought of having a look in town to see if I could find something decent.
For the first time I noticed the WE I-Explore at Bogong, in Little Bourke st , Melbourne (nice guys....)
http://www.bogong.com.au/html/tents.html

This looks the part. A tested design, similar to the Bibler Pinon (that I have) and the Hilleberg Allak, it is a semi geodesic three pole design. Feels very solid and looks well made. It would be abit snug in winter for 3 , however most of the 2100mm length is usable so some gear could be stored inside .
More info here
http://www.crosscountryskier.com.au/gea ... 222194.htm
Note that this is a real free standing design, I like the idea of a pole supported vestibule.
Worth a look. The one I saw was a darkish green.
Franco

[the_camera_poser]

Bogong- I'd forgotten about them- they were a good store actually.

[Nuts]

I think I would choose the One Planet Tents from that page Franco- The weights are impressive!
Hi CP. The suggestions have been getting dearer by the post...
The Wilderness Expedition packs are 'bomb-proof'...do you need 'bomb-proof'? DO YOU NEED 105 LITRES???
I like Marmot sleeping bags but anyone complying with international standards will have similar offerings per $ spent. Other than that it will be a bit hit 'n' miss with the cheaper ones (I had a Vango rated at -9 but Comfort rated to +4!!!) I would stick with a good brand if you Need to go synthetic.
The inflatables (and especially the insulated ones) are great to sleep on. Probably not 'life-threatening' if you plan on 3 season but we have had several punctures in the exped mats so be aware (they can be hard to locate- you'll spend at least one rough night and need to dunk them if the hole cant be found) I wouldnt take one snow camping without additional closed cell insulation.

[the_camera_poser]

I'm not really planning on snow camping- or if I was I'd stay in a hut. If it snows- so be it, but I'm not likely to go hunting for it.

The prices are getting a bit painful......this is worse than buying a *&%$#! DSLR! (well, not quite...)

As for the size of the bag- No- I don't need 105L, necessarily, but, I'm carrying all of my stuff, plus the child's stuff, plus a bit for my wife, so it's more a matter of us needing it collectively. For instance, I could see us hiking into the Walls for 3-4 nights- setting up base camp, and wandering around from there. For that, I'd want the big bag, as it would allow me to fulfill my role of family pack mule.

[the_camera_poser]

Ok- here's the updated thoughts on this:

Tent: EPE Hawk 3 Person Hiking and Mountain Tent (Still the only one I can find in Oz for a reasonable price that will fit all three of us, there are three other tents in the size/strength I need, one is $150 more, one is 3x the price and one is 4x the price)

Pack for me: Wilderness Equipment Mountain Expedition (I currently have a 90+ litre bag, and I fill it when I serve as the family mule)- Also, I'd like to do the OT in the next 2-3 years, when Laura is old enough to do the walk, and I'll need the room to carry a lot of her stuff. In essence, it has to be 1&1/2 packs.

Pack for Wife: Caribee Overnight Pack (lightweight, around 40-50 litres)(maybe a WE Breakout- they look excellent, and also get top marks from our school's outdoor ed'ers)

Sleeping bag for myself: Mont EVO Super (-7, synthetic- for insulation properties when wet)

Sleeping bag for Laura: I'll get a 10-15f synthetic bag from REI in the US for Laura, that will be more her size

Sleeping bag for the spouse: Mont EVO Extreme (-9, synthetic) (with a homemade quilted fleece insert)

Exped Downmat 9 x 2 for spouse and I (Yes I know they are unbelievably expensive, but last time I slept on a leaky air matress I would have gladly given $150
for a warm, down-filled mat to sleep on)

Exped Downmat 7 Short (for Laura)

Please let me know what you all think- even if I don't go with your recommendation, I do look at all the products, consider your advice, and have deifintely made decisions based on your input (ala sleeping bags and mats)

Next up- shopping for a shell for Laura and gaiters, which I'm not sure I'll really need right away.

[Franco]

This is what the floor of the EPE Hawk 3 will look like with three mats inside.
The Exped and the Max Thermo are 180cm long, the Thermarest is 168 cm.
The outside of the tape is the measurement posted at EPE.
Franco

[Son of a Beach]

Nice work, Franco. There's some truly useful feedback - it's still true that a picture says a thousand words.

[Nuts]

That is 'comfy'...
CP
*Pack mule it is then..
*I had the exped downmat7. I imagine that the 9 would be a bit sweaty as a 3 season mat for a warm sleeper?
I'm not sure if you've tried one but also- they go very much Flat when punctured...
Nuts

[Franco]

Son Of a Beach
Thanks for that. When I try to figure out the available space inside a shelter I usually make that floor plan, then plant some poles in my backyard at the same angle of the real one . Surprising how much dead space there is in some shelters.
The EPE has almost vertical walls so no need to do that.
Franco

[the_camera_poser]

Franco- you rock! That is outstanding! No way I'd fit in that with two other people. I think I may end up getting the Sea-to-Summit Cirque- we are pretty serious hikers, and will use it enough to justify it. Being stuck in a nig four man tent with a rambunctious 5yo on a rainy day would be better than in a cosy 3man. I like the removable vestibule too- make one of my freeloading women carry it for me.

As for the Exped- I'll have to go and have a look at them. I'd get the thickest one for the wife- she gets cold in the middle of Summer in Queensland. The sevens would be for Laura (child) and I. Are the expeds more comfortable than thermorests or inflatible mats? I'd like something with a fair amount of cushioning- I'm BIG- like around 57cm wide at the shoulders (no, not just fat), and I need a bit of cushioning. Maybe I ought to get two thermorests.....

Kathmandu does have some pretty inexpensive thermarest-type ones that would do the job as well. They are 1/4 the price too.

[the_camera_poser]

Son Of a Beach
Thanks for that. When I try to figure out the available space inside a shelter I usually make that floor plan, then plant some poles in my backyard at the same angle of the real one . Surprising how much dead space there is in some shelters.
The EPE has almost vertical walls so no need to do that.
Franco

I noticed how vertical the walls were- good design if you ask me. I've noticed some of them are quite squat- I would think that would make poor ventilation, not to mention having the walls in your face.

[adventurescape]

I recently was mat shopping and went for the roman moon mat standard long tapered (Allgoods). Half the price of a thermarest, same thickness as a prolite 4 38mm, 5 year warranty, not too heavy and i have used it and haven't felt bumps or that horrible creeping coldness of the earth sapping your precious body heat when your sleeping bag is inadequate. I am a cold sleeper, but i really need a better sleeping bag for hiking in tas high country. It may feel silly, but try the mats in the store, preferably on concrete/timber as opposed to carpet.
Sam
+the tapered shape of these mats also fit the footprint of our tent better too. Std rectangles ride up the walls at the footend.
++ oops i'm behind the times... about 13 months to be exact years are passing like lost weekends!!!

[the_camera_poser]

that sounds like a winner Sam! Thanks!

[Franco]

BTW the Exped 7 apart from being more comfortable , is a lot warmer than the Prolite 4 (now Prolite Plus) , the 9 is warmer again, used down to -30 and lower...
Franco

[Nuts]

The Exped 'Synmat' would probably be warm enough (especially in the '9') -and cheaper, is 'syn' thetic and has a better pump system (built in) than the bag inflation...

I feel it's worth saying again that the things have No insulation once flat, it happens and no quick fix...

[the_camera_poser]

Nuts- I reckon a thermorest-type pad would be better- maybe not quite as comfy, but more affordable, doesn't become totally useless when it leaks, and not too hot in the Summer. I might go for the cheapies from Allgoods.

I went and spoke to a camping store guy today, who was helpful, but I also know that you have to take everything with a grain of salt. I'm starting to lean back to the idea of Roman Palm sleeping bags, with extras clothes and a home-made fleece insert if needed. The -5 (really a -1 bag) for the wife, and the 0 bag for me. Otherwise, it'll be too hot in Summer and Spring, when we'll be using them the most. Better to take an extra set of thermals and a fleece insert rather than buying 6 sleeping bags instead on 3.