pack weight insanity

[Gadgetgeek]

So my full gear weight between my main bag, and Ribz pack is stitting at 15kg, with only a little food and water (breakfasts and snacks for three days, 3L water) it runs up between 20 and 21kg. So not insane, its not going to kill me, but I've been going mental the last two days trying to dump pack weight. It comes down to the fact that everything in my pack is something that I have or very likely might need, and partly due to the fact that some of it is strictly work related (I'd like to carry a much smaller first aid kit, but its not just me I'm thinking about), or is probably just a couple hundred grams heavier than it needs to be. Being able to make tea for the supervising teacher during the day might be a tiny thing, but if its gets me good feedback at the end, then that's what I'll do. The other disadvantage is that its a nut-free camp, so I'm stuck with other, less efficient snack food options (although it seems pointless, since almost none of the food I can get is certified nut free) Sugar is heavy! the other snacks are roasted soybeans, broad beans, and chickpeas (look up alton brown crispy chickpeas, but make them with canned) good for the salt, and a little protein, not much else.
Thankfully I can pre-drop my activity specific kit (although the kids have to carry theirs) but it makes me wonder, if I'm sitting at this level with some reasonably decent gear, what are they going to be like? My last trip like this was quite a bit warmer, so no thermals or extra layers, but jumpers and sleeping bags can get very heavy. upside is that there isn't all that much walking to do, and the main one we get done right off the top.

I figure I'm getting nickled and dimed by the base gear, and I feel like there should be a kilo to shave off, although depending on the forecast I may have to add in extra layers. Its not that I have a hero complex or something, but I feel like I'm being paid to solve problems and make sure the kids have a decent time, not just be there. A really ruthless purge would cut it back, and there are a couple of spares that could go (do I really need three safety pins?) but then what to do when a kid's backpack falls apart? but then that's the other half of it, they won't be carrying zip-ties, a multitool, and the like.
I'm going to try to grab a 100 gram fuel can before I head off tomorrow. not much else to do at this point. Its just frustrating that's all, I've been trying to trim it over the last three trips, and so far the only upside is water gets me to 20kg, not starting there dry. although to be honest I know I did a trip with 25kg, and for the life of me, I couldn't tell you which gear I used that was heavier.
Pack is 3kg
Hammock and stuff is 1.6kg
quilts are 1.1
clothes and such are another 1
Everything else is just little bits and pieces, but it looks really pro to have everything someone needs instead of having to go...." well, I can call in for it"

[walkon]

You don't have to have everything except the ability to improvise. If you can do that then you'll look better . You aren't the only one in the team and gear can be shared from other kids if need be. Also having the ability to carry extra gear from someone struggling is probably more important if the bases are covered.
schools should have gear checked the kids for the basics beforehand so the rest you can fudge over.

[Gadgetgeek]

unfortunately since most of the supervising staff only have experience with school camps, and not their own trips, a lot of that final gear checking falls to the instructors, and we have a limited time budget to work with. I'm sure I'll do better each time, but its still annoying. I managed to find a 100g butane can at anaconda, nothing at the closer stores or my local independent. I keep trying to give them money, but they never have what I need. Almost time to pack the ute and hit the highway.

[Mickl]

Another option is things like group first aid and emergency shelters etc can be carried by the kids. We just get them to swap who takes it each day. I think my last trip which was a Monday to Friday trip which was cold and wet so had rain gear cold clothes and pack cover plus meals and 2 kilo of water was around 16 kilos. Having said that it's taken me a lot chopping and changing and convincing myself I won't need things to get my weight down.
As far as kids go I was surprised with some of the weights which were lower than I though but they were using tarps for shelter and sharing cooking set ups between 3 or 4. I also think kids don't care as much about things that we might so they just make do without things if need be. Just take some gaffa tape aka sticky rope that fixes everything!

[photohiker]

This is all a bit vague... Post your detailed and weighed packing list if you would like useful feedback.

Good luck on your trip, it sounds like it's too late to change anything now.

[RonK]

I guess there is a price to be paid if scoring brownie points and looking "really pro" is so important to you.

[legend]

Have you water along the way. If so, then 3 litres seems a lot for winter.

[NathanaelB]

20kg is my typical day hike pack weight, I'd like to make it lighter but I also want to be prepared and not stuck in a pickle just to save a few kg (unless that extra weight is going to cause me chronic back pain, increase risk of spinal injury, twisted ankle, sprains etc ...)

[Strider]

20kg is my typical day hike pack weight, I'd like to make it lighter but I also want to be prepared and not stuck in a pickle just to save a few kg (unless that extra weight is going to cause me chronic back pain, increase risk of spinal injury, twisted ankle, sprains etc ...)

That is the same weight some people carry for a week. What on earth is in your pack?

[NathanaelB]

That is the same weight some people carry for a week. What on earth is in your pack?

Without hijacking this thread ... Just for starters:

3.2 kg for camera, lens, tripod and binoculars
3.0 kg (litres) water incl bladder
2.3 kg spare warm clothing, hat
1.9 kg for knife, PLB, torch, GPS etc
2.0 kg backpack
0.5 kg thigh pack
1.0 kg first aid kit
2.2 kg sleeping bag, tarp etc
0.7 kg water filter, steripen, empty bottle
0.7 kg food
0.5 kg safety rope

[beean]

That is the same weight some people carry for a week. What on earth is in your pack?

Without hijacking this thread ... Just for starters:

3.2 kg for camera, lens, tripod and binoculars
3.0 kg (litres) water incl bladder
2.3 kg spare warm clothing, hat
1.9 kg for knife, PLB, torch, GPS etc
2.0 kg backpack
0.5 kg thigh pack
1.0 kg first aid kit
2.2 kg sleeping bag, tarp etc
0.7 kg water filter, steripen, empty bottle
0.7 kg food
0.5 kg safety rope

If this is just a day hiking list you could probably dump the sleeping bag at the very least if you're taking warm clothes along as well. What is the safety rope for?

[LachlanB]

Also, if it's a day walk and you're already carrying 3L of water, what do you need the water filtration and treatment stuff for? 1kg also seems a bit excessive for a 1st Aid Kit, maybe if it's in a heavy container or pouch you could switch to a couple of snap lock bags? As for the camera gear, maybe you can scratch the tripod? A lot of the time you can balance it on your backpack or nearby logs and things like that (although, the trade off is that the baseplate gets really badly scratched eventually, and my 2.5yo DSLR now has no resale value). Dunno what you need a thigh pack for, a 2kg backpack should be able to sink anything you throw at it.
The safety rope sounds a bit superfluous to me too, but depending on what you're doing it could come in handy, but around the ACT???

Agree that you could dump the sleeping gear; if you're worried about the possibility of spending a night out, maybe a bivvy bag or space blanket? The PLB should solve most of your problems around rescue; if you're badly injured enough that a daywalk is turning into an overnighter, you'd be considering popping the PLB. You don't have to be comfortable, just survive.
But you're making me feel really inadequate about the amount of stuff I take on daywalks; my only usual sacrifice to the risk of being benighted is a space blanket and a torch...

[NathanaelB]

Yeah I could dump some of that stuff, but the water filtration has come in handy especially in New Zealand I did a few day hikes where I went through 5 litres of water so being able to safely fill up at a river and not risk Giardia/Crypto is appreciated. Plus I guess because of my level of fitness, experience, hiking solo, track record LOL etc I figure my risk of being stranded overnight might be higher than for others. I'd love to get the pack down to 15kg

[hobbitle]

Holy jebus 20kg for a day pack...

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[Supertramp]

My day pack consists of 2-3 liters of water and a snack or lunch, that's it. After all it is a "Day Pack" isn't it??

[vicrev]

My day pack is more like a bum bag with a water bottle holder...works for me..

[Strider]

The risk of you hurting yourself is definitely increased. Because you are carrying so much unnecessary weight.

Water filter
Means of making fire
Thermals
Jumper
Gloves
Hat
PLB
Basic first aid items
GPS
Two litres water
Whistle
Knife
Rain gear

What's that add up to, about 5kg or so?

1kg first aid kit is very excessive. Especially for walking solo (there is only so much first aid you can perform on yourself). Mine is 200g.

[oyster_07]

Potentially off topic and by no means directed towards anyone inn particular, but there is also no point carrying first-aid equipment that the person carrying it (or their activity partners) simply do not know how to use.

[NathanaelB]

True; I guess I carry a little bit more because I'm trained, so I'm prepared to give first aid to others I might find on the track, not just myself.

It's basically just the kit I carry around in my EDC but I should put together a smaller one for hiking.

[Moondog55]

I don't think a 15 kilo base weight is out of the ordinary for an instructor/group leader/guide.
If you've already got the big4 down as low as you think safe and have made an effort to get the personal items and cooking gear as light as possible the only thing to think of stripping out is the group gear
Are you required to carry group emergency gear or is it the desire to cover all bases if the brown stuff flies?
Is your personal shelter doing double duty with an extra large fly or is the group emergency shelter an extra?
My own day pack is a minimum 9kg base weight but when I had kids with me I always carried a much bigger pack and a little extra.
Do the kids have check lists? Are the check lists sorted into Must have /Might have and Maybe have or similar?

[Gadgetgeek]

It was a good trip pretty much, got pretty cold, down to about 1 degree and mad humidity, so everything soaked in the early morning. I ended up using my really roughly done 6oz apex quilt that I had rolled in my swag (took it for the first night, ended up needing a mattress, so good thing it was in the ute) Only woke up chilled, not shivering, so thats a good start, gotta get it a little better, or figure out if the hang is not right, or start saving for a down yeti. Anyway on to other stuff:

I've ordered a scale, so I'll get some weights and we can see where its all coming from. Photo, I get that asking for help and not providing details is fairly useless, like trying to hum you a tune to guess with only text. To answer some of the questions, sorry if I missed any:
Water is available at designated spots, I carry two for me and one spare in winter, in summer the kids carry a group spare container, shared around, up to 10L.
Some emergency gear is required, Depending on conditions, but generally its a tarp, first aid kit, roll mat and sleeping bag to keep the injured warm. I can rely on the kids roll mats, and use my blanket if needed. In theory someone other than me can carry the first aid kit, but I find it easier to always know where it is, to avoid pilferage, and it saves effort tracking it down in camp.
Kids have packing and don't bring lists, depending on the school and the type of event, it can range from very specific and detailed to very vague. I try to get them to leave as much behind as I can (often shower kits and the 3rd-9th change of clothes) But it takes too long to do a full sort, we generally have only a couple hours to sort out the food, kitchen kit, hygiene kit and the like, plus group contract and expectations, fit the packs, change the packs for more suitable ones, make sure they haven't left behind the shoes they need, and all that other sort of stuff you need to think of because a 13 year old boy can't. And besides, if I did a full sort, we'd have to leave behind any lollies they have that they shouldn't, and since they pretty well always buy my silence by sharing, I'm not about to change that!
Brownie points are important. a tea in the middle of the day, on an activity that's going rough can really get the teacher on my side, and if that's what it takes to keep clients, I'll do it. Thankfully my teacher this time wasn't a coffee drinker, so the aeropress stayed at basecamp, and I just did cowboy brew. And that teapot earned its keep, I'll tell you that!

[Kainas]

Without hijacking the thread. I have am a teacher and went on a school 3-day hike (in Qld). Not sure how or why I was deemed fit enough to go with the advanced group, but I did and was completely bitten by the bug. I remember exactly how little I knew, how little help I was. The guy organising it all must have wondered why he was stuck with me. The kids pack weights had to be kept under a certain amount, and anything else fell to us to carry. My pack wasn't bad, but it was about 17 or 18kg when it was done. Not to mention that the teachers did not have the luxury of sharing a tent, therefore sharing the weight of the tent between two packs.

But I was completely bitten by the bug, within 5-months my husband and I had done a NZ trip (written about on these forums), and have had a love of camping and hiking ever since.

[Gadgetgeek]

The truth is that a good instructor doesn't expect the teacher to "know" anything, all I need them to do is buy into the experience not just be a warm body. From the sounds of it, you would be a joy to work with, as teachers can suck up a lot of time and energy if they are prince(esses) about it. I rely on my teacher to be a connection back to school, help the kids transfer learning and frame things in relation to the school's ethos and goals, my job is the wilderness and activity stuff, if the teacher had all that knowledge as well, they would probably work solo. Each organization is different, the ones I work at try to make the teacher's life as easy as possible, at one we have designated campsites, so the teacher's tent stays set up, and larger items like trangia sets can be stationed where needed, instead of carried. In others teacher's kit gets shared among the kids. Once gear starts getting shared out, pack weights really drop off, especially if the parents shopped at MD instead of anaconda.

[roysta]

I was about to start replying and I thought, no, forget it.

[Lindsay]

Yeah I could dump some of that stuff, but the water filtration has come in handy especially in New Zealand I did a few day hikes where I went through 5 litres of water so being able to safely fill up at a river and not risk Giardia/Crypto is appreciated. Plus I guess because of my level of fitness, experience, hiking solo, track record LOL etc I figure my risk of being stranded overnight might be higher than for others. I'd love to get the pack down to 15kg

Where were you in NZ where you needed to filter water?

[Gadgetgeek]

Roysta, feel free to share, I'm trying to learn stuff in general, so maybe it would be useful, or maybe I would be able to more fully explain the insanity that is my life. Or we should start a school camps thread, that should be fun!

[NathanaelB]

Where were you in NZ where you needed to filter water?

Anywhere ... Mt Owen, Mt Somer ... they reckon most streams in NZ now indicate for crypto or Giardia unlike 40 years ago. I really don't want to risk it, but I guess to save 730 grams on the filter, UV light and spare bottle to collect and treat in, it might be worth it. Not like I'm drinking out of a muddy puddle.

[Gadgetgeek]

Well, I got a small scale, ordered one with a 2kg capacity, but was sent a 300g scale. Good for the little stuff, have the right one on the way, but weighing all the little bits until it arrives. I've been building a spreadsheet of every bit of gear I have, partly so I can keep track of things, but also simulate combos. Really eye opening as far as how much some stuff weighs and how it adds up. Found a few places to chip tens of grams here and there (10 free grams by cutting the unused load-lifter buckles and an accessory strap off my pack) There is an extra kilo in just dry-bags and the like! Even things like storage jars and that sort of thing have to be taken into account.
Cooking stuff is 900g without fuel, but includes condiments and seasonings, and flatware. The orikaso stuff is nice and light, but doesn't leave me much to improve.
Reset my first aid kit, and by components it comes out to 940g, although if I was running solo, I'd be able to drop that to about 450.
Hammock and kit is harder, since I don't have accurate weights yet, same as clothing and insulation. But again, once I have weights, I'll be able to really figure out my efficiencies.

One major factor has been setting some pretty arbitrary, but needed limits on certain categories of gear. Like 250g max for knives and tools, or for flashlights. I'm pretty sure I've been getting slowly killed by backup gear. Its also a matter of deciding how good a bit of gear is, compared to its weight. I have three headlamps, BD Spot, Gizmo, and Fenix HL10. The Gizmo and HL10 are only a AAA different in weight, but the HL10 is fully waterproof. The Spot has a throwy beam as well, but do I need it, for the price of 30g, considering its not that good, and a real light is far better? I also have an orbit lantern that has proved far more useful than a headlamp in a lot of cases, and it, plus a throwy handheld light is "cost effective" Of course I can take a 25g light if all I want to see is my feet. All things to consider, but there were some real surprises.

Its not full yet, but the link is here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nrp6LW1pLuIkSpPv5J6SHyuSliAjvrsl3IQJIS4vvZQ/edit?usp=sharing But I think I found the brick gremlin. I'll clean it up as I fill it in. I included the container in a lot of the weights of the non-food consumables since it makes more sense in my find that way, I really like little nalgene bottles. They are great, but still effected by gravity.

[Mickl]

Try the website gear grams. It lets you add all your gear and then you can make lists for different trips and it calculates reports etc of the lists. Really easy to use once your gears all entered.

Had a look through your list and there's a lot of places you could save weight if you carry everything on that list.

[Gadgetgeek]

The idea is a total list, so its only things with quantities that are then added into the final weight and pack list. Over time I plan to break it down over several pages like I've done with lights, knives, and probably first aid. For the way my brain works, I would rather see the whole cupboard to make comparisons, and this way lets me look at different combos to make sure I'm getting the efficiency I need. What sort of things were you thinking I should leave out?

Also, if I could get the csv upload to work, I may well give it a try, but I've done enough data entry for now. I'll just work on building in google sheets for now. It won't be pretty, but it works for me.

found the format to get CSV to work. but got a message I may get called in tomorrow. Should probably leave this for later. Still going to have to figure out how to get some of the formuals to work, as far as the highly variable weight of the ribz pack, as well as getting the categories setup. Now that I have the CSV format though, the data entry is easier.