advice on 4-season 2-person tent

[nickthetasmaniac]

Hi everyone, I'm looking at upgrading my tent in the next couple of weeks and was hoping for some advice.
I mainly walk in the Tassie highlands (during summer and winter), but also spend time in coastal areas surfing and i'm planning a trip to south america next year, which will include tropics and desert... So basically I want a 4-season tent suitable for alpine conditions, but with enough ventilation for summer use and and light enough for an extended (several months) backpacking trip.
It needs to be 2-person and my price limit is about $1000AUD

So far I'm interested in:
Wilderness Equipment First Arrow 30d (3.4kg) ($795)
Mountain Hardware Spire 2 (2.38kg) ($848 with footprint) ($799 without)
Black Diamond Stormtrack (3.18kg) ($889)
Bibler Tempest (3.26kg) ($1029)

The price of the WE is attractive but it's also the only one that isn't free-standing, which i'm a bit dubious about... Also very interested in the Bibler, but i don't have any experience with single-skin tents so not sure how it would handle hotter conditions?

Any advice or experience would be well appreciated
Cheers, Nick

[alliecat]

I'd add the Hilleberg Nallo and Nammatj to that list. The Nallo is around US$500 and at 2.1kg is lighter than anything on your list so far. It's a 2-pole tunnel tent that is designed for pretty harsh conditions. The whole Hilleberg range is worth checking out actually.

As for free-standing vs not; well, any "free standing" tent still has to be pegged down anyway so it doesn't blow away, so other than the ability to pick it up and move it around, it's not really much of a benefit IMHO.

The main issue with single-skin vs double is condensation. Single-skin tents are more prone to condensation and need to be carefully designed and used to minimise it. I don't know anything specific about the Bibler though I'm afraid.

Good luck.
Alliecat

[johnw]

Non-freestanding tunnel tents seem generally considered more robust for alpine use. I think the WE First Arrow would probably do what you want in terms of range of conditions from snow to beach.

I have the 2nd Arrow which is it's little brother and they're almost the same, except the 1st Arrow has 3 poles and is larger. I haven't found non-freestanding to be an issue unless using camping platforms. Even then it isn't too difficult to rig things to suit. See this topic for more info http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1544.

I used the 2nd Arrow recently on a quasi solo trip and found it quick and easy to put up/down my own. You can open both ends up fully for maximum ventilation (with or without bug screens), which should cater for warm weather use.

[dee_legg]

The Mountain Hardwear Spire 2 is a great tent, and one that i've had lots of experience with.
Never had any issues, and certainly handles wind, rain and snow well; spent a very comfortable night inside while the wind and now blew around on the Eliza Plateau in July.
I personally haven't used the footprint, so can't comment on how much this improves use but can imagine it would be useful but not entirely necessary.. only a few times when camping on sheet rock have i wondered how durable the floor of the tent really is.
Also that price seems a little higher than what i've seen advertised around the Hobart outdoor stores, but considering the price increases in other areas of the outdoor market it wouldn't surprise me.
In terms of use in warm climates i can comment that it is a full nylon inner, with both doors having mozzie nets.

[nickthetasmaniac]

Thanks for the replies everyone.
I've almost been talked out of getting a single-skin model. Today i was told by a salesperson that national distributer for Bibler warned against recommending single-skin tents for use in Tasmania because there was 'too much moisture'...
All the prices I showed were as quoted by Paddy Pallins Launceston, so if anyone knows somewhere cheaper in Hobart i'd love to hear

[Franco]

"Non-freestanding tunnel tents seem generally considered more robust for alpine use'
That is true if you are comparing weights, as in you can get a pretty strong tunnel tent for not much more than 2 kg (say a Nallo) but to get a similar sized freestanding shelter you are looking at 2.5 to 3 kg (Allak) or you sacrifice space and or a vestibule. However most expedition alpine tents are of a freestanding semi geodesic design.
The Biblers do work better in a cold dry environment, same for the other similarly designed shelters. (Todd Bibler was a climber and that is what he designed is tents for, minimum weight/maximum protection for those conditions)
Franco

[ILUVSWTAS]

Macpac Minaret.

[nickthetasmaniac]

I've done some more research and narrowed the list a bit.

Not interested in:
Bibler Tempest: It has the standard issues of a single skin tent (moisture ingress and condensation) but still weighs over 3kg so doesn't really take advantage of the benefits. Expensive.
WE First Arrow: Lacks the convenience of a free-standing tent, but doesn't have the weight advantage you'd expect from a tunnel tent (heaviest in the group). Too small.
Also had a look at MSR Asgard (too heavy and expensive; $1300) and Fury (too small for weight and expensive; $1170), Hilleberg Nallo 2 (too expensive and small), and Macpac Minaret (too small).

So the revised list:
Moutain Hardware Spire 2.1: Very light and apparently strong, although I have reservations about the size
Black Diamond Stormtrack: Very roomy, acceptable weight, very good reviews regarding strength and livability.

I'm edging away from the 1.5-2 person tents (minaret, spire, first arrow) at the moment as this will probably be my home for 2-4 months next year so i think the extra volume would be worth a couple of 100gms weight...

[Son of a Beach]

I can highly recommend the MacPac tents (I currently use an Olympus and absolutely love it, but that doesn't fit your free-standing criteria).
I've also been looking very closely at the Exped tents, while searching for a smaller, lighter, solo/self-catering tent. These tents appear to be exceptionally good value for money, as far as I can tell.

Have you considered MacPac or Exped? Both brands have a wide variety of models, and may have free-standing models that suit you.

I've never had a free-standing tent and have never felt like I'm missing out on anything. The tunnel tents certainly cope with strong winds well (for their weight). They rely on bending with the wind a bit, rather than trying to resist it completely (as a geodesic free-standing tent usually tries to do).

Also, I've used a variety of tunnel tents on a variety of platforms and have never had any problems pitching them (single handed, usually).

[loric]

Some things you may want to consider if you're going to use the tent in high winds is that:

1) tunnel tents work best aligned with the wind.
2) the slope of the ground is best aligned lengthwise so you don't roll off the sleeping mat.

If you're packing the tent away each day, it's not so much a problem. But if you're planning on extended basecamps it can be a pain to have to realign the tent for variable direction winds and get the slope right.
Tunnels like the Olympus are symmetrical both ends, so you can sleep with the head(slope) at either end.

My WE First Arrow on the other hand has a small end and a big end. It only works really well with the small end pointing into the (high) wind.
The slope of the ground is also best if the big end is on the uphill. You can sleep the other way round, but it's a bit tight around the head room.
So.. with the First Arrow, you have to take the slope AND wind into consideration. This can be a bit of a pain if you're resticted site-wise.
Sometimes i have no choice but to sleep the 'wrong way round' or point the big end into strong winds (the big end vestibule flaps around a bit).

3) Setting up the first arrow on rocks can be tricky coz you have to peg out the tent ends to keep it stretched out. Sometimes it's hard to get all three pegs where you want them.

So...
A) Dome-type tents can be pitched real easy on rock as you have greater freedom where to use the storm guys.
B) Dome-type tents handle wind changes better - and hence MAY be more convenient for base camps.
C) You can sleep either way in a dome, so slope is less of a worry.

Horses for courses...
I love the first arrow but sometimes it can be a pain.
I love the headroom and the big vestibule.
My mate's salewa ultra (dome) has less trouble with site selection, but his vestibule pales in comparison...
Another mate's olympus is way better that the first arrow as a 'party' tent - coz the high spot is in the middle!

Last point - make sure the tent manufacturer backs up the product! I'm confident that WE will send spares FAST anywhere in the world.
I have found their tech support to be first rate. I even had the owner ring me personally to discuss matters...

Last Last point - bright colours are hard to hide in the scrub if you wanna base camp but leave your belongings somewhat hidden.
My first arrow is bright yellow. I have buckleys of doing this well...

[nickthetasmaniac]

3) Setting up the first arrow on rocks can be tricky coz you have to peg out the tent ends to keep it stretched out. Sometimes it's hard to get all three pegs where you want them.

This is the main 'technical' concern i have with tunnel tents. There's been several times with my current tent (free-standing) where tensioning a tunnel tent would've been very difficult.
I understand the benefits of tunnel tents, just that out of the tents i've looked at, the ones that seem most suitable have been free-standing...

Last Last point - bright colours are hard to hide in the scrub if you wanna base camp but leave your belongings somewhat hidden.
My first arrow is bright yellow. I have buckleys of doing this well...

Hmmm, i understand the security issue, but I still prefer the 'feeling' inside a bright coloured tent, especially if your in there for a couple of days

[Franco]

Nickthetasmaniac
That Black Diamond tent looks just like the ticket for you. At 3 kg sounds heavy to me.. but it is pretty large , lots of headroom, nice vestibule and protected entry.It's freestanding and orange. (yes, nice glow inside...)
If you have not seen them already there are some reviews of it here :
http://www.backpackgeartest.org/
(shelters, tents..)
Franco

[nickthetasmaniac]

does anyone have any experience or knowledge of GoLite tents? I'm particularly interested in their Valhalla 2+ (seems very light for the size but not convinced on weathersealing...)
Also interested in the Big Agnes String Ridge 2..???

[Nuts]

Tried the Vallhala (and Utopia) Both leaked like sieves- worst along lower mesh seam. Utopia was better as you could direct the Flow of water over the detached ground-sheet. Golite Hex3 (tipi style) was OK after seam sealing inside so perhaps the others could be sealed. Anyone contemplating tents with 'magic fibers that expand' should be prepared for some sealing work- I'm not sure how many drenching downpours they need before the fibers do their thing!

Also found with the single skin tents that they can 'mist', sometimes dangerously. I imagine the reviews for many of these tents designed more for cold/Dry (ie. some of those mentioned in above posts) are unhelpful when considering a tent for Tassie/Oz. Perhaps look to a manufacturer from a similar environment (ie. Wet/Temperate) if looking overseas...

Every tent has its limitations good/bad depends on what your willing to work/put up with to save the extra weight. When I read some peoples search for a tent I imagine that they must be disappointed when they Finally make a decision after So much research, just to realise this...

[nickthetasmaniac]

I thought that might be the case with the 'expanding' fibre...

Every tent has its limitations good/bad depends on what your willing to work/put up with to save the extra weight. When I read some peoples search for a tent I imagine that they must be disappointed when they Finally make a decision after So much research, just to realise this...

Hmm, i think i'm just about settled with putting up with the extra 1/2kg and getting the Black Diamond. Sounds like a great all-round 4-season

[Orion]

We went through this process before our recent trip to Tasmania. We already have a number of tents, all free standing models, a few of which are single wall. But the conditions in Tasmania are very different from home. Single wall seemed like a bad idea. I'm pretty sure it would've been.

We looked carefully at a long list of tents. Dimensions, weight, price, ease of pitching, etc. There is no perfect tent. We liked the BD Stormtrack a lot but it's far too heavy (for us) for a tent that gets packed up and carried every day. We chose something else (similar size but a kilo lighter) and we were very happy with it. I hope you're happy with your choice!

By the way, we discovered that we really love Tasmania.

[nickthetasmaniac]

do you mind if i ask what you ended up getting?

[loric]

After reading the reviews and looking at the pics - the Black Diamond Stormtrack is an interesting looking setup.

After 'poo-pooing' the WE First Arrow, perhaps I should point out some features that i've found good on it.

-Weight - not really that much diff to the BD. The BD comes with a silnylon stuffsack, pole/peg pockets etc. The WE bag is the same (heavy) material as the floor, as are the pole and peg bags (separate). You could easily lose a few grams here. I take the heavy bag (as well as some seamgrip) as it's the spare material if i get floor (or pack) damage. Floor material is HD so you don't need a groundsheet.

-Y-connector. Interesting. Not my cup of tea to have this specialised and unique pieve of kit (go missing).

-Pole breakage. I've had s'one fall onto the WE and it simply collapsed. Once the said person got off, it sprung back up. I think this is more to do with the tunnel vs geodesic setup tho. The Geo domes are rigid and hence cannot flex to avoid pole damage.

- Fly first (and complete) pitch ability. This is a big one for me. In heavy rain/snow, the tent (or fly) goes up in one hit.
In tear-down, you can pack the drier inner away first whilst still sheltered by the fly.

- One person pitching in high wind. The WE arrows (and prob most tunnels), you can peg the small end upwind, insert the poles and the tunnel will stay put and not try to fly away.

- Size. The FIRST arrow is a freaking huge 2 person tent. Not sure why you think it's too small!

- The newer WE silnylon tents actually have a PU layer inside the fly. So, you no longer have to seamseal them (already tape sealed) AND the big plus, you can use normal seamgrip (instead of Silnet) to repair the fly from the inside.

- Inner detaches from fly near vestibule and inner can be pulled back. This is handy for increasing the vestibule size for cooking when it's raining hard.

- Fly extends close to ground. Good for rain, good for snow!

Last but not least!

OZ company and Oz service! (tho made in Vietnam...oh well)

[nickthetasmaniac]

I'm still interested in the First Arrow. On thursday paddy pallins are going to set up the First Arrow, Spire and Stormtrack so i check them out in the flesh We'll see what i think after that...

In regard to the hilleberg tents, is there an Australian distributer? Or do they have to be ordered from the US?

thanks for all the help everyone

[Franco]

Hilleberg
From the US distributor , Petra Hilleberg (the daughter of Bo Hilleberg , the founder) is in charge there.
However I would purchase Hilleberg from these guys : http://www.moontrail.com/hilleberg-nallo.php
Nice guys, excellent site.
Franco

[nickthetasmaniac]

What's involved with buying from US sites, re. customs/taxes etc? I've got no experience with this and get lost every time I try and read their policies

[tasadam]

Not interested in: Hilleberg Nallo 2 (too expensive and small)

I disagree in part with this.
Yes they are expensive, althought cost is likely comparable to similar quality ones. But the bit I disagree with is the "too small" - there is a bit more room in it than our old Hallmark Snowcave.
If you come to Devonport, I'd happily show you this tent. PM me if interested.

Regarding pitching a tunnel tent on rock, a picture tells a thousand words.
Shelf Camp, Mt Anne.
Thumbnails are links to larger images.



These 2 images show it held down quite successfully.


This image shows it was a rough night with a front crossing, but it held strong.

What I mean is don't give up on a tunnel tent.
Though I would recommend to if possible, you don't really need to point the tent into a wind unless it's going to be pretty bad. I've never had to move my tent once pitched.

Regarding buying from the USA, I have never had to pay duty or taxes on a tent coming from USA (Moontrail for Nallo2) and I have done it twice. It just arrives in the mail, pretty quickly too.
As the purchase will be under $1000 I think you'll be right, but check with the customs site if you want to be absolutely sure.
Camera lenses, ouch, a different story. But that was a +$2000 lens.

The biggest plus for me with the Nallo2 is it is a 4 season tent at half the weight of my old tent. Although only one vestuble, space in that is bigger than the old tent's 2 vesstubles combined.
And the way the inner detaches from the outer to make more room in the vestuble for cooking if needed is even easier than the old way on the Snowcave.

Hope that helps.

[norts]

I am WE 1st arrow owner and I can not fault the tent. It is heavy but it is huge for 2 but very squashy for 3. As for service, I am on my second 1st arrow. My first one started to leak on the floor after about 4 years, I sent it back to S2S and they replaced the whole tent. There was something wrong with the material.
The main reason I purchased this tent was the vestibule is just so good. Also the tent can handle a wide range of temperatures, mate is about to take it to Hinchinbrook(will be interested to see how it fairs).

Roger

[nickthetasmaniac]

I had a play with the Black Diamond Stormtrack, Mountain Hardware Spire and WE First Arrow today in at Paddy Pallins, and ended up putting the First Arrow (with 30d material) on order Here's why:

The Spire 2 was VERY small. Laying flat, I was nearly touching each end of the tent, and two mats side by side nearly touched. I was also concerned by how light the floor seemed. This is all fair enough considering how little the tent weighs, but probably not suited to my use...

The Stormtrack was VERY big inside, which almost had me convinced, but there were a few niggling little issues I had. It has a complex pole system, and as someone mentioned, if you lost or broke one of the hub pieces while out and about, it'd be difficult to jury rig a repair. There's also very little storage inside.

In the end though, it was what the First Arrow did do, rather than what the others didn't, that convinced me. The whole thing just seems very well thought out, with some really nice little details. While it isn't as big as the BD, the way the vestibule door works means it can be totally opened up during summer. I also liked the way you can unclip the floor to make more room for cooking in the vestibule, and pitch the outer by itself, which will be handy for summer trips.

Anyway, thanks for everyones tips, i'll let you know how it goes once i get it out there

[corvus]

Well done nictmc ,
Big desison on tent choice not an easy thing to do and as a multi tent owner I am still looking for the " the best" enjoy you purchase and give feed back please..
c

[nickthetasmaniac]

I'm planning an 8-9 day sth-nth overland trip for uni holidays, so i'll right up a report after that

[loric]

ooo harharhar...

Even after pointing all the faults of the tent out - the WE 1arrow still comes out trumps - welcome to the eeevil 1st arrow club... oo harharhar.. LOL

Just wait till you get your first clear night - zip that vestibule all the way down, lie back and watch those stars - magic.

what colour did ya order?

oh yeah - when you assemble the bent poles the first time - get the alignment just right and mark the poles sections with whiteout (on both male and female connections) Then every time you assemble the pole, line up the whiteout marks and VOILA! perfect bent pole!

[corvus]

Better permanent marker than whiteout as it is "more permanent duh!" and does not leave a chalky residue on the poles .
c

[loric]

yeah? my poles are shiny black - i couldn't get a marker to work!

[corvus]

White one they are out there or a little scratch on the poles but I agree black on black can be hard to pick up
c