What are your preferred quilt features? Especially footboxes

[undercling-mike]

Hi all, as many of you would know I've been offering for sale lightweight down quilts in the specials, discounts and adverts section of the forums for the last few months. I'm now at the stage where I've got my feet wet a little bit and am looking into turning this into a proper business and I want to hear your feedback and opinions on what quilt features and options meet your preferences and what you'd like to see. I'm also looking at ways of streamlining the production process and design to help make for a potentially viable business, particularly with respect to the footbox and the top collar and I'd also like to hear any thoughts on this.

For a detailed description of the current design I've been offering please look up my sale thread in the specials, discounts and adverts section of the forums. In short, the current design has longitudinal baffles with a full length differential cut and sewn in footbox with no sewn through seams, the shell and liner are each constructed from 3 main fabric panels which allow for the quilt to more naturally wrap around the user than the more typical flat blanket design (even if the footbox is sewn in).

I'll just list a range of topics that you could provide comments on along with what I'm thinking or planning for each one (feel free to comment on anything else related to quilts as well):

Sizes: I'm working on a smaller and larger size to complement the standard one I've been offering so far.

Temp ratings: I'll probably keep the current +4C, -2C, -8C ratings and hopefully look at a lower rating in future if I get established, let me know what you'd like to see in this regard.

Colours: I will need to buy fabric in bulk to make things viable in future which will unfortunately most likely mean a reduced selection, probably around 3 popular shell and liner options. I could have an extra cost custom colour/fabric option as well.

Footbox Options: The sewing of the current footbox with oval end piece is one of the time consuming steps in the current design, but the result is nice. I'm considering following a similar path to the company Underground Quilts and offering a few different options:

• Zip and drawcord - fully opening to use more like a blanket
• Flat sewn - sewn shut across the bottom without the oval piece, similar to the offering by ZPacks and Enlightened Equipment, still fully insulated, no sewn through seams
• Oval footbox - As for current design, more roomy but with a price premium to reflect the extra complexity of construction

Top collar: I will probably change the design of the top collar to have a separate sewn in tube for the collar rather than the current version where the collar is a continuation of the main quilt body. The alignment and sewing of the top seam in the current design has remained fiddly and time consuming even with more practice and using a separate collar shouldn't affect performance or weight

Down Options: I will probably stick with the current options of 800 fill power treated and untreated down, this seems to be the sweet spot of price/weight but higher fill power options could be added if there is demand

Double Quilts: I'm focussing on single quilts to start with but I'd like to do these in future, keep the comments coming if you'd consider getting one to motivate me to get onto it.

I'm really keen to hear everyone's thoughts so I can gauge people's preferences and hopefully go on to build many more quilts. Thanks all!

[north-north-west]

Size: small (I'm 5'3" but like something that will cover my chin.)
Colour: Hawthorn gold and brown, or red, red, red.
Temp: -12 comfort would be nice, if possible.

Not sure about the footbox thing. Proper oval footbox would be warmer and more comfortable, but it's also fiddlier.

[undercling-mike]

Thanks NNW, I'm sizing the quilts so that it comes up to the nose of a person of the stated height. I'll probably do the smaller size listed for 168cm (5' 6"), which would be ideal for someone your size, and the larger one for 198cm (6' 6").

Warmer ratings are certainly possible, although personal comfort ratings can vary widely between individuals, a real cold sleeper might need something nominally rated to -25 to get comfort at -12. The pad and head insulation really need to be up to the task as well at those temps.

As for the footbox, the flat sewn and oval sewn footboxes should be just as warm as each other but the oval footbox is more spacious. Still the Zpacks sleeping bags all have quite narrow flat sewn footboxes and the Enlightened Equipment Enigma quilts are also flat sewn and you don't read too many complaints about those products. Plenty of people use the drawcord footboxes successfully as well, so clearly they can work. I could see it being very nice to have it fully opened in a warmer weather quilt, I personally just take my feet out of the footbox and lay the thing over the top if it's too warm.

[Moondog55]

Not buying a quilt any where in the near future
BUT
Big trapezoidal canted footbox for size 13 feet on a winter rated quilt and a sewn end
Drawcord and snaps for a summer rated quilt

[DanShell]

Sizes- the standard would suit me being 6' or so.

Temp Ratings- Hmm thats a hard one. I own a 20f EE quilt and I am generally quite cold in it as soon as the temp gets near zero and oddly enough I am a hot sleeper. So if your temp ratings are comparable to the EE quilts (in regards to fill weights) then Id definitely be looking at a lower temp.

Colours-Im not fussed. I currently own a blue and charcoal quilt so I am 'safe' (or boring!) in regards to colours.

Footbox Options- well my EE quilt has the draw string type but in future I would probably just go with a sewn in oval type. However my wife and I are considering a warmer walk where I was thinking I may be able to use my quilt as an open blanket style over the both of us. So if I was in the business of manufacturing quilts I would offer options. In regards to flat sewn or going to the trouble of sewing in the oval, I think it may depend on the size options because if a person is on the verge of being too large for a particular size then an oval type footbox may allow that little extra length when the quilt is pulled up to their chin.

Top Collar- if the manufacturing process is easier one way or another I think that should dictate the style, especially if weight and performance differences are negligible.

Down Options- Again if buying power and end user price is to be effected, stick with a quality fill power treated and untreated as you do. If someone really wants a high fill power they should have the option at a cost perhaps?

Double Quilts- yes yes yes there has to be a market there for them. The same with quilts for the hammock crowd. Hammocks would do a lot better here if we had a supplier of down quilts to suit the market. These areas may be limited but they are worth considering at some stage.

[kitty]

Not currently in the market for a quilt as I have one...but if I was...
Sizes: Would want your longer version, because, although Im short I would want something that comfortably covers my head too. The 78in revelation size suit me perfectly.
Temp ratings: I like your temperature ratings and Id be interested in the -2C and -8C especially if those numbers are closer to "comfort".
Colours: I would pay extra and wait longer to get a quilt in the colours I wanted
Footbox Options: Id only be interested in drawcord option - fully opening to use more like a blanket - I love the versatility of this style.
Collar: as long as there is no velcro Im happy. I like the collar in your picture.
Down Options: Id be happy with 800 but if you had higher fill for special order that would nice.

[Scottyk]

i have an EE quilt with a draw string foot box and I like it. Versatile and keeps the cost down
I don't see much point in a sewn in one except maybe for the very cold area were the chance of a small hole in the bottom might be considered.

[undercling-mike]

Thanks for putting forward your opinions guys and keep them coming! Good to see some posts in favour of the zip and drawcord footbox, I'll definitely be looking to offer that as an option.

On the temp ratings I tried to model the numbers to be most comparable to the Katabatic Gear quilts, which seem to be a bit more conservative than the other cottage quilt makers and seem to line up with my own experience for comfort. Although, as I said, there's a wide variation between individuals. Looking at the EE spec sheet I should have more down for a given rating and quite a bit more down per area, although I don't know the exact dimensions of their quilts.

Kitty, how tall are you? I'm 177cm (5'9-10") and the regular comes up to my forehead with straight legs lying on my back and over my head with slightly bent legs on my side.

[kitty]

Im 5'3'' (162cm) and my regular length revelation measures length 191cm laid out flat, ~179cm zipped up.
With footbox cinched and the top fully cinched up too, lying on stomach with my feet stretched out fully, I can completely cocoon myself with the quilt over my head.
I dont like wearing a beanie or hoodie at night due to the fact that I have long hair.

[neilmny]

Mike,

It would be possible to develop out the shape of the footbox so that it became the foot end part of the inner and outer fabric. With the right shape a curved "baffle across the end could change the direction of the down. The end wall of the top or bottom half could join mid foot height to form the foot box end keeping the loft right across the foot box.

It would be a bit like a reversed catenary cut.

I hope that makes sense as it would save manufacturing an actual footbox panel that has to be sewn in.

[undercling-mike]

kitty,

just for reference my regular length quilts measure 183cm (6') in length on the inner from the top of the footbox to the top of the collar. If I do a zip and drawacord footbox I'll add a little length to the foot to account for the length lost from cinching it up.


Nielmny,

indeed that kind of footbox could work and I did consider it or something similar when working on the current design, it came down to how to design it with the longitudinal baffles to have all of the baffled chambers isolated from each other and have no sewn through seams. I couldn't figure out how to do it without some fiddly sewing but perhaps it warrants revisiting. It always seems to come down to fine details but I'll certainly be putting some thought into it and testing some mock-ups to see what works.

[Watertank]

Hi Mike,
I have an EE quilt - features that I like are the ability to open it out completely, so no to a sewn in foot box for me, I bought a long and wide version. I think a size that gives the first time user the confidence to make the leap from using a sleeping bag is important. I'm not sure a huge range of colours is important provided you have at least a conservative and a brighter option. Down quality and treatment, temp and collar options I don't have a comment on. And yes to double options particularly without sewn in foot boxes, these would be viable for a variety of uses. I like PHD designs option of having two quilts that can be put together to cover warm, mild and cold conditions. Best of luck with the business.

[Moondog55]

A perhaps for you
Winter specific option may be a WPB foot end; snow campers may well be willing to pay the extra and carry the increase in weight for the increase in performance

[undercling-mike]

A double quilt without a sewn footbox might be an interesting option since most on the market seem to have sewn in footboxes (PHD excepted although the price for those seems high). A cinch type footbox wouldn't work very well for a double I think because of the huge foot width in comparison to a single it'd eat up a huge amount of length. Maybe a zipper could be employed to close the foot, or omnitape, although I'm not a huge fan of that stuff.

A WPB foot end could be a good option if you're worried about touching condensation on tent walls (is that the primary motivation?). What fabric would you prefer Moondog? Pertex Endurance and Shield are available from Thru-Hiker albeit at quite a large cost and are probably the lightest options.

[Moondog55]

Condensation from touching a wet tent wall is exactly why. As for which WPB to use I would say whichever has the greatest breathability; although even a second layer of a fabric with a durable DWR adds a lot of protection in my experience but having the lower section of the winter bag/quilt with the second layer is a lot more effective than shoving into your parka
A double quilt probably needs that oversized footbox but perhaps a fixed tape on the bottom [ male clips on each end and female clips on the quilt] and a drawcord that only partially closes it up? The tape sized for two mats coupled together

[Moondog55]

Mike I am interested in the general consensus
What in the main do people seem to want?

[undercling-mike]

Well my conclusion was that everyone wants something different! More seriously there has been sufficient support for a drawstring footbox that I'm working on offering that as an option and I've been getting quite a few orders so I guess many people like the sewn in footbox as well. I may also offer a simpler sewn in footbox without the oval end piece and offer tiered pricing but I'll need to do some experimenting and see what the actual difference in construction time is.

Out of the current options the most popular temp rating has been the -8C followed by the -2C and there has been a fairly even split between the untreated goose down and the HyperDRY Duck down. For me personally (as an approximately standard male in terms of sleeping warmth and living in NSW) I think the -2C quilt is the most versatile, I'll use it for everything except snow camping, boosting the rating with insulated clothing as needed but I would only need to do that occasionally based on testing so far. Perfect for Summer trips to Tassie or NZ as well. The -8C would pretty much cover me for Australian winter trips I think, again boosting with insulated clothing if needed and obviously with a warm pad system and head insulation. Even the +4C quilt would probably cover me for 3/4 of my trips over a year and there is something absolutely lovely about laying under a quilt that light in milder conditions.

[Giddy_up]

Hi Mike, the most important feature on my two EE quilts is the drawstring at the bottom. This allows me to regulate temperature almost perfectly so I am not opening and closing the quilt all night or putting a leg or arm out to cool down.

Quilt size and down fill rates are always personal. I think EE offer set down fill rates but a lot of people get overfill etc....so it's a case by case deal.

I have to commend you on the quality of your workmanship whilst I'm here. Not that I've seen it up close and personal but the pictures and the happy customers tell me enough. You're on a winner and personally I couldn't go back to a sleeping bag now, to restrictive

Cheers


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[undercling-mike]

Cheers Giddy,

So far down overfill has not been a popular option but I certainly can offer customization in that respect. I could also aim for different temp ratings and adjust baffle heights to suit.

One thing I've noticed is that not many quilt makers offer a draft collar above the top drawstring, I find this to be a very nice feature personally and I've had a few people make comments or contact me to say it's important for them as well. How do you find the top closure of your EE quilts (or any other make) without a collar and would you see it as an advantageous feature?

[Giddy_up]

Hey Mike,

I actually went the quilt option as I am quite an eclectic sleeper. I do roll a lot and some times I like to pull the quilt right over my head and pretend it's still dark outside and I shouldn't be packing up camp and walking.

Just so you know what I'm sleeping under, I have a 40f/5c Epiphany quilt and I have a 0f/-17c the same.

So Mike draft collar would be a waist for me. I find that I cinch my top and bottom draw cords to suit. So here in Qld I rarely cinch the top cord much only a little to just form the quilt so it rests nicely around me and my pad and allows me some good movement. The bottom how ever is a very different thing and I find the colder it gets the less I leave the bottom open, thus reducing what I term "the chimney effect" and increasing the retained warmth. Obviously once the bottom is fully closed and if you where still cold you would then work on closing down the top cord.

I try to ensure that I am "IN" the quilt rather than having limbs poking out to regulate the temp etc and the two openings work well for me.

Attached is a picture of me on the Bogong in my Mid. Here I am sleeping on snow with a sheet of soft tyvek under a down mat and my -17 quilt. I wasn't cold or wet and I had the foot end of the quilt open so you could fit a soccer ball through easily. Temp was about -5 or so and it had been a very windy night, so much so that I got up to check my guy lines.

Later in the trip the temps got much lower and I had one night of quite heavy snow and I found the need to close the bottom of the quilt to about the size of a margarine container and the top closed just a little further so it was snug about the shoulders. My winter quilt is 6" longer than my Qld quilt so I can pull it over my head and completely enclose myself if the need ever arises.

Hope this helps a bit

[Giddy_up]

Just thinking further and a question for you Mike.

How do people regulate their temperature with a closed foot box and a draft collar?

I assume they are either throwing the quilt open and losing all their heat, then getting cold then warming up again in quite a viscous cycle. If people are genuinely trying to develop a sleeping system, then they must also look at how they keep their system at a comfortable temp for them whilst using the least amount of heat energy to do so. You want to use your energy for walking and in the snow sometimes on difficult days you want to use that energy to stay alive and if you have burnt heaps of calories/joules of energy warming up a cold quilt that you tossed open and closed all night and you can't dig a slot trench or a snow cave in a blizzard to save yourself because you have no energy is not a good sleeping system. Keeping a uniform temp also makes for a good sleep and I always get 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep under a quilt that I have adjusted properly to the environment I'm in at the time.

The above winter reference is a bit extreme but it makes the point.

[undercling-mike]

That's quite an UL setup you've got there! Lots of Cuben. When did you get your epiphany quilts? I haven't seen those offered for a number of years and just judging from your picture yours looks like the 'shiftless' baffle design and is just cuben on the inside with breathable nylon on the outside... Haven't seen one like that before.

Anyway with regards to temp regulation I don't really think it works out the way you suggest it might, I think there are good options for regulating temperature with a closed footbox but each user probably needs to gain experience on how to make it work for them in a variety of conditions. Most of the time I use it without the top closed and with the quilt just layed out on top of me. Having feet in the footbox doesn't tend to cause problems with overheating for me if the torso area is setup appropriately. If it's really hot then I take my feet out and stick them under the footbox, in those conditions I'm usually happy to leave it like this all night. I do use a silk liner which tends to help buffer any exposed parts as well as keeping the quilt clean and giving a nicer surface to lie on than the top fabric of the sleeping pad. As it gets colder of course I progressively tuck and clip the quilt in.

Probably the biggest point of experience you need with any system is how to estimate what setup you'll need for given conditions and parallel to this not let yourself get too cold (or hot) before going to bed or else you'll set yourself up to be too hot or cold later in the night. This applies to any sleep system of course.

Another random thought is that you're using a vapour barrier system, which is probably a bit more sensitive when it comes to setting it up for temperature (and moisture) regulation

[Giddy_up]

Hi Mike,

Yes the quilts are a couple of years old now and I love them. I got them made together basically and EE and I exchanged a lot of emails to get them right for me.

Yep, it's light. I wanted to be able to go for a full week or more, especially if the weather turned and enjoy it rather than battle with massive weight. Food and fuel are the things that add weight to my pack and the heavier it gets the further from home I'm planning to go

Snow shoes add enough of a dimension without doing it with a pack that's trying to push you through the snow to China. I forget my base weights, there on the site somewhere but it's light. Under what most people's tents weigh haha.

I have made some comment on VB just recently in another thread. I researched it for months before committing and I'm glad I went that way, in my opinion it's superior in every way if you have down as your insulator. For me and how I like to travel it's the only way. No silk liners needed as the sweat and oils from your body don't get anywhere near your down so there is never a need to wash your bag. All I do is wipe the Cuben on the inside of the quilt down at the end of the trip with a disinfectant wipe and it's good to go just like new, smells nice too. Cuben as VB adds quite a bit of warmth as well to the quilts, so my Qld quilt can be pushed a lot lower that the specs and I doubt I will ever get cold in my winter quilt.

I'm still tinkering with my set up though as it's not perfect. I'm going to mod my Mid or one of my other tents and attempt a 10 day trip with some ice climbing at Blue Lake this coming winter. It's actually not that far away

Let me know if you want a closer look at the quilt and I'll take some pics for you.

I guess I am quite experience under quilts now as I sleep under my Qld quilt every night, so I am getting my value out of it

[Moondog55]

I know you are not yet ready for any new projects Mike but when you are I want a Gerry style Arctic sleeper shell
Which is of course an Extra Large quilt sewn all around to a mattress sleeve and a short zip on one side

[undercling-mike]

Giddy_up: It's great that you've found a system that works so well for you. Vapour barriers are certainly effective at adding warmth if used appropriately and I think cold sleepers especially should really try out a vapour barrier system, maybe start with a liner or clothing and see how it goes. I could custom make a vapour barrier quilt if someone wanted, I'd probably look to use a fabric like the 0.93 oz/sq.yd. membrane silpoly or xenon sil on the inside for the vapour barrier and my normal breathable fabric on the outside. Cuben fiber could be done as well of course but it's super expensive these days and because of the narrow roll width I'd need 5yd to do just the liner, the weight saving would be ~35g comparing 0.51oz/sq yd. cuben with the membrane silpoly.

Moondog: You've always got an interesting systems approach to your gear, couldn't find much with Google but I think I understand what you mean. Could certainly be an effective item, how would it compare to something like a wide/long Big Agnes bag such as: https://www.bigagnes.com/Products/Detai ... stranger15.

Making the quilts and designing all the variations is going to keep me very busy for the foreseeable future I think. One off custom designs are always a hard call to take on as projects because of the design time, the fact it takes longer to construct the first one of any design and also the pressure to pretty much get it right first time, even for seemingly not too complex projects. On the other hand if a design is something that could interest a decent number of people then it could be worth it.

[Moondog55]

Big Agnese take on the Gerry system doesn't integrate the whole mat into the shell
Because my winter bag is already so big even the biggest of the Big Agnes bags is too small
Mike I'm happy to loan you the little Gerry book if you want to borrow it for a month or so

Otherwise

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/ ... d&qid=&sr=

http://www.abebooks.com/book-search/aut ... ham-gerry/

The hard part is getting the correct shape for the mat sleeve so that the insulation overlaps properly and so no cold edges
I am going to have a go at converting my overbag but down would be so much lighter
Just a thought Mike and only when you are ready of course but it is also one way other way to do a double quilt so a dual market perhaps

[Mark F]

A feature I built into my myog quilt was a simplified version of what Ray Jardine calls a gorget http://www.rayjardine.com/ray-way/Quilt-Kit/index.htm?g_page=2. I just added a curved top panel to my quilt (15cm in the centre curving to 2cm at the sides) rather than trying for the 3d effect you will see in the link. It seems a little counter-intuitive in helping seal up the top section around my head but I find it quite effective.

I also have a zipped box foot with a drawstring. To imitate a draft tube I sewed a strip of fabric the same size as my baffles where the zip is and the zip is sewn to the outside seam of the quilt. I will post a picture/diagram in a little while. I also did this along the bottom edge attaching the draw cord to the outer seam. When the draw cord in tightened and/or the zip is closed the volume created by the extra fabric fully seals any heat loss from the box foot.

[clance]

Have you ever thought to use press-studs or something similar to mate an over quilt to your main quilt? It is a pain when an extra layer keeps sliding off the bottom layer, I toss and turn so this happens to me

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[Lamont]

In New Zealand's South Island last month I flipped my One Planet (with footbox) bag over, undid the zip all the way down, lay on my mat and slept well. Of course it was only coolish some nights but on warm nights I could cool myself easily- I didn't have to wiggle my feet out of the enclosed foot area. The foot box area was mainly open but you get the height of the box which gives you a little more toe room. My ideal for most use through the seasons would be raised footbox as you have it, don't change this. Put a zip where it is now sown up the length and keep the rest as is. I would buy this model if you could make it for the price listed for -2. In fact I tried to PM you to ask about this very option but as a new registee I wasn't able.

[Orion]

Everybody is different. For me a quilt has to have a sewn foot box.