High altitude and low temperature stove: Alcohol vs Butane

[jaco]

Any ideas which would be the best stove or type of stove for high altitudes and low temperatures (about -5 to +10 degrees C) - alcohol or butane? I've got an old Bleuet 206 hiking stove and a Swedish Military alcohol stove made by SVEA, also referred to as the Swedish Army Trangia.

[samh]

Butane is normally not that good for low temperatures. So the alcohol one would probably be better, but also not performing as good as possible in warmer temperatures. A multifuel stove would be the better option for real cold conditions. Anyway I think for the temperatures you mentioned, both stoves should be OK, but not performance wont be optimal. BTW what altitudes are you thinking about?

[dee_legg]

In cold weather...unvaporised alcohol eg metho burners are worse than butane/propane canisters which are worse than isobutane/propane which are worse than vaporised fuel eg shellite. for any canisters or metho, if you do decided to go down that road, the best ways to use them in cold conditions is to either sleep with them in your sleeping bag or add a dash of water to the metho, apparently this makes it easier to light although i doubt it helps much once its going, having said that i've never tried it in anything other than optimal conditions.

[jaco]

BTW what altitudes are you thinking about?

I dont know, whatever the altitudes are on the Overland Track and in the Snowies...

[north-north-west]

The Snowies mainly max out at around 2000 metres - you only have a handfull of peaks that go over that. Tassie doesn't get quite so high.

[olblackbilly]

G'daye Jaco, alcohol fuel stoves shouldn,t be a problem, shellite etc., how heavy is your swedish military stove though...?

[jaco]

According to a website:

* 0.890 Kgs Without fuel.
* 1.170 Kgs With a full fuel bottle
* 1.230 Kgs With full fuel bottle and filled burner

[olblackbilly]

my stove weighs about 720gms.....thats without fuel

[corvus]

G'day jaco,
Having experiencend many stoves your Metho one will work on the OLT and at even higher altitudes will just be a bit slow to bring a litre of water to rolling boil therefore in Winter you may need a tad more fuel hence extra weight .
Gas Cannister Stoves are quicker ( cans need to be kept warm in winter) and I average 35 gm of gas per overnighter (boil water only) so these are lighter however I also have ultra lightweight cook pots which helps .
I think you have the cook gear to suit as long as you feel good using it
Go For It .
C

[rcaffin]

Any ideas which would be the best stove or type of stove for high altitudes and low temperatures (about -5 to +10 degrees C) - alcohol or butane? I've got an old Bleuet 206 hiking stove and a Swedish Military alcohol stove made by SVEA, also referred to as the Swedish Army Trangia.

The Bleuet is pure butane. It dies at 0 C when the butane stops boiling.
The Trangia might work, but it will be very slow. Alcohol is not well-suited to the cold.

Consider a gas stove with a remote canister, used inverted. A very good one is the Coleman Fyrestorm. Also to consider is the Primus Eta Packlite.

Cheers

[north-north-west]

I use a Trangia, and most of my walking these days is in the Australian Alps, with occasional time off for good behaviour in Tassie. I've not noticed any major drop in performance up on the Main Range compared with at sea level - although that may partly be because I usually start the stove going and let it do its thing while I'm setting up camp . . .

[BarryJ]

Go the gas-fired Trangia!

[corvus]

I use a Trangia, because I usually start the stove going and let it do its thing while I'm setting up camp . . .

With respect scaveger you cannot compare boil time with starting to cook as you set up camp IMHO for the following reasons.
1 Boil over
2 Burn unsupervised tucker and open flame
3 In my many years I have never seen a stove set up b4 a Tent
4 I have also used a Trangia for many years and in reality know that gas is quicker(and cleaner) pity about the empty cannisters.
However as previously mentioned, on the OLT most stoves will work if you use them with care and caution,just this weekend at New Pelion Hut I saw two serious flare-ups from the basic MSR shellite burners both from over priming the most serious being flames from the bottle connection as well as the big flare -up user was lucky to only loose some hair .
c

[north-north-west]

Yes, corvus, that's why I made the assessment conditional . . .
And the first thing is always just a very large mug of soup, followed by water for dehydrated food, so burning things is not an issue.

*shrug*
I use a gas burner when I'm car camping and it's always seemed to be faster than the Trangia, I just find the latter more convenient for walking. Plus, as you've said, there's the waste problem.
As for the order in which I do things - well, I've always been a rugged individualist. The Trangia is always at the top of the pack, purely because it doesn't really fit anywhere else. So getting it going while sorting out other things is logical. To me. Of course, I'm totally bonkers, so my own habits should never be used as a guide by anyone else - unless it's as an example of how not to do things.

[jaco]

I've seen and had some burns with Shellite stoves, and am cautious against anything but alcohol, solid fuel and butane canisters, they are all easy, simple and safe (now I start sounding like the OHS officer at work ) to use. The question is just which would be the best on the OT in October? Weight isnt much of a problem, I'm a big boy and carry a big (20kg) pack without much difficulty.

[dee_legg]

To me, that depends on what sort of cooking you plan on doing, but from what you've said previously i'd suggest go for gas canisters.... can easily pick up a stove for under $80... or maybe even borrow one if you know someone with one. Gas is a good compromise between weight, efficiency and safety in my opinion. I've used a trangia, a few of the MSR shellite stove models and various gas stoves in my bushwalking time, and can't imagine myself ever carrying a trangia again for my personal cooking (have to carry one for guiding) while shellite based and gas are suited to different things but are both great and get the job done.

[the_camera_poser]

Those little Kovea solo stoves look decent- I weas eyeing one off the other day. 83g (from memory) for the stove and 223 for the canister. Also, you can get a little lantern by Kovea that fits on the same cylinders.

[Ent]

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[photohiker]

For solo bushwalking, I take a small gas stove. Does the job, light as, efficient.

For Car camping, I have a coleman fuel stove. Apart from being a particularly good stove, they avoid the whole problem of gas in vehicles (which most people either don't know about or ignore) Suffice it to say that gas is heavier than air and will pool inside the vehicle if there is a leak. It's very explosive. Nuff said.

[Son of a Beach]

Don't forget that Trangia comes in both metho and gas, and the two are very different beasts.

It's personal taste, based on your own priorities, I think. If saving weight is what's important to you, and you like easy/fast meals (packet meals), then something like the Kovea type gas burners are ideal (tiny and very light). If you like to cook your meals from scratch using a variety of ingredients at the camp site, then the Trangia is still hard to beat.

However, now that I've converted my Trangia to the gas model, I'd never recommend the metho Trangia. Gas is so much easier to cook with... hotter, and more controllable. The simmer ring on the metho Trangia is just a joke, in my opinion. Gas Trangia has all the benefits of gas, with all the benefits of Trangia. It's just not an ultra-light kit.

[BarryJ]

Would have to agree with all your comments re the gas fuelled Trangia, Nik. Love mine!

[corvus]

The Gas conversion I have for my Trangia is the much older one without a heat converter tube ,which worked very well in normal temperatures but slowed down to very low simmer in the cold, I replaced this with an an Optimus Explorer multi fuel burner which is excellent in all weathers however I now use a cannister top gas burner and lightweight billies.
Yes choosing a cooking system is a difficult albeit fun filled task especially for tragic's like me
c

[BarryJ]

The Gas conversion I have for my Trangia is the much older one without a heat converter tube ,which worked very well in normal temperatures but slowed down to very low simmer in the cold, I replaced this with an an Optimus Explorer multi fuel burner which is excellent in all weathers however I now use a cannister top gas burner and lightweight billies.
Yes choosing a cooking system is a difficult albeit fun filled task especially for tragic's like me
c

My Trangia gas conversion has the heat converter tube and works well in the cold.

[Ent]

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[corvus]

Hi Corvus

Does the Optimus convert the petrol into gas and control the gas or does it just control the petrol flow? Also how would you rate it against your other stoves?

Cheers Brett

The Optimus Explorer to the best of my non scientific knowledge gasifies all of the liquid fuels it uses and was designed to be used in extreme conditions for larger groups ,weighs in at 690g including ,pump,bottle, burner ,windscreen and carry bag.
I Rate this the best stove system I have ever purchased /used with or without the Trangia however like some of my other stoves it is "old fashioned " and perhaps hard to maintain for a newbie with a couple of fiddly bits and the extra weight to carry thus my lightweight burner now.
c

[jaco]

So from all this I would gather that alcohol would be the least preferable in cold and high altitude?

I think this would warrant a trip to the Snowies to do some stove tests...

[Ent]

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[jerreldulay]

Howdy there!
I was first intent on packing an Alcohol stove for safety, price, and simplicity reasons. Then, one day while backpacking in California at high altitudes (snow, wind, fun), I tried to cook some stew and boil water. The alcohol was tough to keep lit and it had problems even warming the water, much less boiling it. I have been packing a Coleman propane/butane stove ever since, and have never had any serious problems in any conditions. I've heard instances where used fuel tanks leaked into packbags and a small spark turned hundreds of dollars worth of equipment into a fireball.
I keep my fuel tanks in mesh pouches on the outside of my pack.

Good luck!!!

[reindeer]

I was pondering a gas conversion kit for my Trangia and was pleased to see the above positive comments. (The other option was a Kovea).

The Trangia catalogue indicates there are differnet gas conversion kits. Or does one size fit all?

My Trangia (1 litre pot size) is approaching 20 yrs old, with no hole in side for gas line. There is an indentation in the vents however (approx 2 cm diameter)- I am guessing I would just punch this out?

Thanks

[tasadam]

Interesting discussion.
My thoughts...
Any stove will be fine for the Overland Track - the altitudes you will encounter are generally not significant enough to make any huge difference to their effectiveness. My understanding that metho Trangias are more susceptible to performance drop at altitude.

I have always used Shellite stoves, and would very much appreciate you elaborating on your horror stories regarding Shellite.

I currently have two stoves - Optimus 99 which simmers very well and is a solid performer, but is very old and I think they are made from steel now rather than alloy as mine is. I took it on a 7 day walk in 2005 and it went fine, though I did have to do a bit of maintenance on it at the Irenabyss.

The MSR Simmerlite does not simmer.
It's great for getting water to the boil, which is about all I need. If you try to get this stove to simmer, the flame is likely to go out.
You can get a low flame, or a full-on flame. But the low flame is generally too strong to simmer say a 1 litre pot of pasta, it will still boil too rapidly and burn the bottom of your food without constant stirring.
The control is on the pump, so it adjusts the pressure in the hose as well, meaning there is a slight time delay for the flame to stabilise after an adjustment (talking about low-flame adjustments).
Would be better to control the fuel closer to the jet, such as in the MSR Dragonfly.

Priming the shellite stoves is the pyrotechnic bit - once the fuel is pressurised, the tap is opened briefly to allow fuel to the stove head, that is lit to heat the tubing so that the fuel delivery will vaporise and you get a gas-like flame.
If you let too much fuel into the head for priming, you have a little camp fire going there for a while and in windy conditions that can be hazardous. In tent vestubles it is very dangerous. Much experience is required for priming shellite stoves in tent vestubles - it can be done but you want to know the characteristics of your stove pretty well before trying - better to use another option - cook outside or under a tarp is a better option. Or in the case of the Overland track, on the stainless steel counter tops provided at the huts.

An excess of shellite on my last visit to New Pelion hut, and I was able to supplement the room heating by running the stove for a while.

I have seen a report and read a story on another site about a fuel stove where the heat shield was not used, the fuel bottle heated up because the stove was unsupervised, and when the people approached the stove it exploded. Very nasty indeed! So as with all stoves, use it properly and keep an eye on it.

Having covered what I see are the aspects of Shellite from my experiences, I still prefer it. You can see exactly how much fuel you have. I have never liked the idea of gas - puncture it and your fuel is gone. I suppose the same can be said about the shellite fuel bottle, though at least it is not under pressure. I have not experienced gas so I don't really know about gas, people like them and use them, but not for me.

I covered the weight of my MSR stove and billy kit in this topic.
I'd like to see what Tony has to add to this discussion - he's the expert!