new jacket to replace dud Lowe Alpine

[moldyform]

Hi

I purchased a Lowe Alpine Jacket before i did the overland track and lowe and behold on the first day the draw string on the hood snaped taking with it a piece of material with it. Not impresses as there was another 7 days of walking.

I now plan to get a better quality jacket shell. If i could get some feed back on the North face jacket called Free Thinker II that would be great. Thought id get it from the US before the $ drops again. Also i plan to use this jacket for snowboarding as well.
http://www.e-omc.com/catalog/product_in ... B21%7D3250

Any info on this jacket would be great!!

Cheers

[dee_legg]

Personally can't see this jacket being that great for walking.. too short, and the fit looks as though it might be restrictive in terms of how many layers you can get under it. The helmet compatible hood means it will probably be huge, and not easily secured down in wind and rain.
But if snowboarding is the main reason to buy, and walking with it would be its secondary use then it looks fine. In terms of materials it looks great, and although i've never used any North Face gear myself, i've heard workmanship is good.
Found on the Northface website that it retails here for $999 so that should indicate it does its job well, but whether that job is bushwalking use...
Also i couldn't find any specific weights although it does say 'surprisingly light'... not sure if this means just light in general or light for a snowboarding jacket.
Hope this helps your decision making!

[moldyform]

thanks for the info,
I have tried a similar jacket on in a local shop and one of the reasons i was keen on this one was teh fact that it had plenty of room in the body for layering. As for the hood i had the same fear when i saw it was to accomadate a helmet, but trying it, it seems not too bad, jst had to pull the draw strings a bit more and it had a draw string on the back of the hood that tightens it up.
I take your point also about its length, i was unsure about its length also, How long do you recon a hike jacket should be to be effective? I have water proof hike pants that i wear if its raining generally.

[Son of a Beach]

I take your point also about its length, i was unsure about its length also, How long do you recon a hike jacket should be to be effective? I have water proof hike pants that i wear if its raining generally.

It's a personal preference, but I prefer a jacket that is long enough to mostly cover my shorts. This way I don't need to wear waterproof over-trousers most of the time even in the rain (but I always carry them in case the weather gets even worse). Some people prefer them shorter, and there are also models that are longer at the back than at the front (like a mullet). The one in that picture looks too short for me - remember that the wind/rain/seepage/movement will tend to push water up a bit higher than the bottom of the jacket.

The bottom of my jacket is at about the same level as the bottom of my shorts, but my shorts usually end up getting wet to about half way up their length, if the rain has been heavy or it has been windy and raining for some time.

[Ent]

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[sthughes]

I'll add my vote to the almost knee length jacket. Ditto to everything Nik said actually!

[dee_legg]

I wrote a reply to you, Moldyform, but it didn't work apparently! but it was all just what soab said!

[photohiker]

How long do you recon a hike jacket should be to be effective? I have water proof hike pants that i wear if its raining generally.

Given that not many people don their waterproof trousers at the first sign of rain, I think you really need the jacket to cover to your thighs at least. I've been using a Mont Synchro jacket (looks to be a bit longer than the North Face) for both skiing and bushwalking the last few seasons, and it's just a bit short. I'd prefer it to be longer. great jacket all the same.

[Nuts]

Swimming upstream....

I dont mind the 'mullet' style. They are more of a 'multi-sport' jacket though I like the lightweight unrestrictive feel of them. Dont wear shorts (or gaiters much) anymore just quick dry longs (no sunscreen, no DEET). Most of these jackets (at the correct size+) will keep your crutch dry. I always carry g'tex overpants or just let the longs dry out (quickly enough). Would probably buy a long jacket if mostly walking in warmer climes.

Have tried a few NF things. The general impression was that it was a bit overpriced compared to other US and European brands for similar items.

[flyfisher]

Bought a M D goretex jacket last week for about $400 which is cheaper than the N F when you add freight and then exchange rate.
Cost incl. freight $399.90 us which is $496.78 at todays exchange rate

ff

[moldyform]

Thanks for the replies guys.
Found out that NF wont post from any online shops to Aust so didnt bother with that one and gota NF shell (although not as good) locally yesterday.

Cheers

[north-north-west]

I'll add my vote to the almost knee length jacket. Ditto to everything Nik said actually!

I'll third that.
Oversized mid-thigh jacket - without the pack it's knee length, the sleeves are long enough and there's plenty of room underneath for warm clothes. Now, if only they'd make short shorts instead of those things that make it most of the way down your thighs . . .

[Ent]

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[tas-man]

. . . .Now, if only they'd make short shorts instead of those things that make it most of the way down your thighs . . .

Check out this old thread for some "traditional bushwalklers" starting the Overland Track in "SHORT" shorts in 1970
download/file.php?id=172&mode=view

[sthughes]

Makes me glad I was born in the 80's!

[johnw]

Makes me glad I was born in the 80's!

Makes me wish I was born in the 80s!

I usually find that any bushwalking shorts I buy finish around my knees (sometimes lower ), but then I'm a bit of a short*rse.

[Ent]

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[alliecat]

Brett,

I agree with your observations about sizes. I have an old Mountain designs goretex jacket that fits me fine around the chest and the arms are just the right length. Trying on a new MD jacket not long ago, the size that fit me around the chest had arms that were a good 5cm too short. Perhaps I've become more ape-like as I get older...

I've bought some Montane gear that is designed in the UK for the UK market (though still made in China) and it's sizing has always been spot on for me. I think it's a reflection of how much care the designers take in selecting their "standard person" for sizing. Some companies do it well, others are just way out there.

Having said all that, I prefer my "mullet" style jacket (Montane Atomic DT) to a really long one. It keeps my bum dry and if it starts to bucket down I'd rather put on WP pants anyway. Wearing shorts just seems to be an invitation for me to scrape, scratch, cut, bruise and otherwise mangle my knees.

Cheers,
Alliecat

[blacksheep]

I'm amazed you managed to type all that. surely your keys are so small on the made in china keyboards...
really...it's about a specification and QA processes to ensuring standards are maintained, whether the pattern is sent to bichenoe or bejing, the assembly process is largely the same and can be monitored to ensure standards are maintained. But 99% of the result is determined from what is asked for. then reject if it's not.
(MD's changed their fit while I was there..I was designing products that diodn't fit me very well, but they fit the CEO and owner nicely )

[Ent]

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[Amanda]

Your comment about the owner and CEO of MDs is interesting black sheep. Are they small people?

[blacksheep]

Your comment about the owner and CEO of MDs is interesting black sheep. Are they small people?

well, new CEO now, but in my day there he wasn't very big yet insisted he was medium.. and on that base with a standard grade rule applied I would have been XXL. I'm 6'3and a bit and 95kg...didn't quite add up when bigger guys (who should be served with XXL) had nothing

[Mafeking09]

Not sure about that model but I negotiated a deal with Mountain Creek in Hobart on their old stock Mont down jacket - it's terrific.

[Ent]

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[blacksheep]

Brett, it is amazing to me that you don't understand the country a product is sewn in has zero influence on fit. They don't choose our colours either. And music from my ipod isn't in Mandarin. A size 45 shoe made in china fits like a size 45 shoe made in italy if the same last is used.
Sizing is controlled by patterns and spec, not contracted sewing companies. MD's made a loss on their prevoius model, they now are profitable. Their products fit more people better. Not you, not me, but more of their market.

[Ent]

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[blacksheep]

My last attempt to make things clear for you Brett

Brett, it is amazing to me that you don't understand the country a product is sewn in has zero influence on fit. They don't choose our colours either. And music from my ipod isn't in Mandarin. A size 45 shoe made in china fits like a size 45 shoe made in italy if the same last is used.
Sizing is controlled by patterns and spec, not contracted sewing companies. MD's made a loss on their prevoius model, they now are profitable. Their products fit more people better. Not you, not me, but more of their market.

Believe it or not I do. It means that you have chosen a size range and ratios that likely fit the mode of the market average. Congratulations so has just about everyone else see Kathmandu, Mountain Design, etc. Country of manufacture does count as Chinese factories are optimised for large production runs so by definition the cheapest cost is the greatest volume which can be achieved by limited styles, colours, and sizing. If you happen to like the style and colour and fit within the chosen size range then life is great and given that you have likely selected the mode then many people should be happy.

A.do you suggest companies make products for the 10th percentile? or the 70th percentile? companies that don't meet their market fail. simple. You and I sound similar in build (maybe I'm a bit heavier). Kathmandu products (when I designed for them) were to fit the masses, and were generous and sized on a grade of 8cm, MD's needed to get a market share and many newer styles worked off the statistical average and were either on an 8cm or a 5cm grade (rather than what fit Rick or Kim the best). macpac are certainly the most "athletic" silhouette of the 3 overall- we get stockier customers complain that we are too elite focused in our sizing-same happened on the first run of arcteryx jackets- they only fit whippet thin climbers. second year on and the jackets we see today are much revised- but they can now service more customers..
B. You have no idea of my production run sizes, and production run size has zero to do with fit- whether i make 100 or 1000 jackets i want it to have the best fit. the volume based price breaks you speak of hardly apply to an outdoor brand- we do not have Wal-mart sized runs, we do not use Wal-mart sized factories. I can make runs of 50 pcs if I need.

However, why if I take to garments from the same brand and lay them down then the older one has longer sleeves and narrower body? What I am saying is sizing has changed (maybe ten years ago) so once where clothes fitted they no longer do but that admission appears impossible to get. I am told that nothing has changed which is wrong. That is the honesty I would like to hear. I accept that you have chosen a size range but please accept that the fact that that is different to once what is was. What does this mean. If you are buying in a shop you buy or reject if the size is right no problems there. Mail order you just do not buy. What is you business? I think it is mail order is becoming part of it.

we have the same male and female fit models that Macpac have used for the last 6 years, and a record of their measuremnts. They are the lean side of the statistical average. The ease of a product depends on intended silhoutte or characteristic of the fabric, and whether it is a body /mid/outer layer. We fit all our samples/pre-production samples and production samples with our staff here. there are no fit issues in our current product range. Luckily, our staff are or target market- everyone here hikes/climbs/bikes/races. I am very comfortable with our process.

Blacksheep, Corvus once lead the charge to get your site right and now I appear to be in the front line as vital sizing has even basic errors so how can we trust any technical information? As mentioned I was worked over by your Traverse pack indicating one harness but having another with a lower load carrying capacity. "Sorry, confusion happens but thanks for the money, please feel free to buy again" was then end result of my emails.

Actually, I have been leading the charge on our website. that is a different story with different challenges. You are in the frontline? .....ok...

On tents check out Tarptent approach for the Scarp 1 see what they have done to explain what you are getting. The site uses 3D graphics to overcome the problem of interpreting floor area. This demonstrates Henry's (the owners) approach of giving the buyer the best chance to understand what they are getting. Ask a question and Henry is quick with the replies along with recommendation on when and more importantly when not to buy his tent. Petra Hilleberg is renown for doing much the same.

these guys don'yt have quite as many balls to keep in the air as we do, but credit to them for being able to keep their small range up to date in all their marketing comms- and it must be nice to be able to communicate so easily to the people behind the products...

What I am saying is sizing is critical and if you are in the mail order business then quote all the dimension of your standard model. If it has short arms then fine, if it is related to an orang-utan then drop me a line. PS just make sure they are MM stands for millimetre not MacPac measurments

Now shoe size. Um? I once did see a box with four sizes quoted, UK, US, European and Korean/Japanese. From memory 12, 13, 47, and 48 were the numbers mentioned. Oh, I forgot country doesn' t make a difference

yes, the graphic designer wrote mm's instead of cm's on our website. changed as soon is was pointed out.
and your shoe example is again suggesting to me you don't understand sizing. on one hand you are trying to say where they are made makes a difference to how it is sized...but shoes are made fit patterns and fitted to a last. different lasts are used for different brands and also for different markets to fit the target consumer. While US and UK are almost on the exacvt scale, just off-set one size, the others work on a different grading increment. And the last shape varies enourmously depending on whether the product is intended to fit a wide foot, a narrow foot etc. this is unrelated to where the shoe is constructed- it is related only to how it is intended to fit. same as garments.

Cheers Brett

PS what about a special deal for the original poster of this thread as they are still after a jacket to replace the one that was stolen

well if they go to the macpac website they will see our sale starts tomorrow, and eVent jackets are on sale, but will our stuff fit them? moldyform never said if he was Chinese

[Ent]

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[Ent]

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[photohiker]

We're totally off topic here, but on the subject of shoe sizes.

I get good life out of Rockport leather shoes around town and home. One advantage of this is that I can just go in and get a pair the same size and style as what I am wearing and they will fit, right? Wrong. Last time I bought some new shoes in the same size as I was wearing they were way too big. When I took them back, the explanation was that the old shoes were made in China and the new in Vietnam. Someone stuffed that up. The other interesting thing is that the replacement pair are just 1/2 EU size different to the old shoes, so maybe the EU sizes are more accurate that the UK/US "I'm not fat" sizing games.