Outdoor gear suppliers

[reindeer]

Visited Paddy Pallin in Melbourne today. It is not what it used to be..... now just an expensive supermarket with unhelpful staff. One staff member hadn't heard of the Pallin 'Prophecy' jackets and asked me to show her where they were in their catalogue. Another staff member told me that Trangia gas conversion kits are not approved in Australia for use and hence are not imported. A previous call to Paddy Pallin mailorder (Sydney store) indicated that they could supply me one! (The Trangia importer confirmed this, and the Bogong store, a few doors away, had one. I will no longer waste my time or money in this supermarket (like many of the other chains) and will only support the small independents such as Bogong in Melbourne.

[Steven]

I agree - I often have a browse through the outdoor gear stores during lunch. Since Paddy's did a refurb and went more 'mainstream' (and less technical) the gear and staff has deteriorated. Bogong is good as they carry good technical gear - but it is expensive rarely have sales - and the staff are more knowledgeable.

[Nuts]

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[adventurescape]

Australia seems like a really tough place to sell high end gear. Stores are reluctant to stock it (understandable) and even order it for the customers perousal! Try buying climbing gear!!! The impression I get from a few friends who work in independent outdoor stores is that the importers and distributors are the ones with the massive markup on the gear. Whether this is greed or necessity due to being a small market is debatable. It seems that everyone involved with the purchase of a bit of gear in Oz wants at least 100% markup. There must be an element of greed if importers insist that the manufacturers protect their stake by not allowing US retailers to sell outside their own country.

If my theory is correct, shouldn't macpac stuff be heaps cheaper due to less middlemen??? I suppose the overheads of running stores is a considerable cost. Similar to warehousing and distribution??? Free delivery to those who don't have a local store would be very nice. I got free delivery for a tent bought from an NZ online retailer.

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[Nuts]

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[Son of a Beach]

If we are serious we need one brilliant Bushwalking Shop in Launceston rather than the six we have at the moment.

Maybe I've forgotten how to count, or maybe my fingers have fallen off or maybe (and I'm hoping this is the one) there's a shop somewhere opened up that I'm not aware of. I can only think of five in Launceston:

Allgoods
Paddy Palin
Mountain Designs
Kathmandu
Snowgum

Back to the original post though... that's some first post to the forums. Sounds like you have an axe to grind.

[norts]

Also the Scout shop in Launie

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[Son of a Beach]

ah, thanks guys... I had forgotten about that one. doh!

[adventurescape]

Brett said-

I notice that MD in Launceston was gradually been stocking more rugged brands and is a good place to compare and check out One Planet versus Wilderness Equipment packs. PP still have a reasonable range of some stuff but must be feeling rather hurt by Macpac pull out as they did push that brand.

I believe that MD in Launceston is a franchise as opposed to other MD outlets. Being able to compare top quality brands is enormously helpful and arguably essential when it comes to purchasing gear. I only want to buy something once and I want it to be the best suited and most comfortable one I can find conveniently.
I own two macpac packs from when other retailers were "pushing it out the door" and have bought a bit of their gear since because I like the 2 packs I have. I got an amp 40 or 45l lightweight pack, which has been well used and abused as a cragging bag, i.e. I haul about 15 kgs of climbing gear/rope/food/water through all sorts of terrain to access climbing crags. We got a vamoose child carrier as a gift from friends that we have used a fair bit and I have not seen a better made or more robust child carrier anywhere. On my experience and macpac reputation, I like their gear... It fits, it works and it lacks over the top marketing/bright logos and other crap that makes me feel like a walking billboard for a "lifestyle" brand. Recent purchases are an event jacket, a down sleeping bag, a mountaineering style rucksack and a l/s and s/s interwool thermal. Their clothing is awesome for my partner and I. We are both long and lanky and I have huge problems generally getting sufficient arm length and minimal girth in garments!!! We are both of an athletic build and keeping warm is more important for us with very little body fat for insulation.

Anyhoo, I find it hard in Launceston to see a range of quality gear in the flesh and to make informed purchases. I can only imagine how it seems in more isolated towns anywhere in Oz!!! The internet has helped me make far better informed purchases than I would have otherwise, both based on user reviews and product comparison. Most of my recent macpac purchases were made because of the net, it was the only way I knew of what they had to offer. I made the trip to Hobart to physically check out what I was chasing and the amount of stuff in store that is not listed on the website is huge! If they are only going to put stores in major population centres then the web site needs to be far more comprehensive on what they sell and sizing info for the apparel market. (And free delivery wouldn't go astray either )

Thats about my summary for the gear buying scene in my neck of the woods. Without the net I would have been uninformed, strapped for choice and well out of pocket. I buy locally when possible or if fit is paramount, otherwise, I'll research as much as I have time to spare and buy online from O/S as the local market can be a joke in monetary comparison. I also agree that the scout shop does come up with the occasional gear surprise.

[stepbystep]

As a relative newbie to serious bushwalking, the gear trap is a minefield.

The first pair of 'bushwalking' shoes I bought from MD(their brand, Made in China) disintegrated in 6 mths(my dogs now use them as a play thing).
The 2nd pair of boots(a prominent French brand, brought in Hobart) have taken me to the best places I have ever experienced, kept my feet dry(except L. Judd) and are still going strong 2.5 years later.

Clothing is relatively easy but the rest of the gear for overnighters is a painfull.

In Hobart I have noticed a distinct difference in attitudes in the various stores. I would avoid S...g.. & M........D.....s.
The only thing I will say about K........ is that the owner supports(very quietly), some magnificent animal rights campaigners, that are grass roots and doing an amazing job that not many people know about.
If you want more info re. animal rights PM me.

All shopping is fraught with moral decisions, including outdoor gear

[Steven]

I agree with Brett - good brands have disappeared, and the brands that have remained at becoming cheap imitations of their former selfs. I'm not sure about Kathmandu gear, but I am concerned that Macpac gear which I think is very good is going to fall in quality. This has already happened with some MD gear. Part of the problem is that Australian made gear cannot compete on price with gear made offshore, and Australia's population is not large enough and affluent enough to support a clothing textile and footwear manufacturing industry.

[adventurescape]

Ground Effect are an NZ manufacturer of good functional cycling specific stuff. They have been around for ages and still manufacture in NZ. I have one of their soft shell jackets and have been using it for years, it goes great. They do merino thermals and polyester/merino knits. I find some of the colours a bit daggy, but their prices have remained fairly solid since I have been aware of their existence. (About 5 years) They are still in business and manufacture in NZ.

[Franco]

'K........ is that the owner supports(very quietly), some magnificent animal rights campaigners"
Jan Cameron sold off all of her shares in Kathmandu in 2006 to Goldman Sachs JBWere and Quadrant Private Equity.
Franco

[Taurë-rana]

I was very sorry to hear that the Backpackers Barn is closing in Devonport, but I guess the prospect of having yet another chain shop in town was the final straw. I tried to buy as much as possible there as they were always friendly and helpful, but couldn't always find what I wanted (puffer jacket) or was unable to compare different brands, so just didn't buy. It's hard for a shop in a small town to carry a variety of expensive gear. The staff at one other outdoors shop in Devonport are generally completely useless and often not interested, and at the third shop, they are very helpful but once again don't tend to have the range. It would be nice to have one, large, independent shop with knowledgeable staff and a wide range of gear but that's never going to happen so back to the internet and some browsing in Hobart.

[tasadam]

Part of the problem is that Australian made gear cannot compete on price with gear made offshore

But there are those among us who realise that you need to pay more for a product that will last. Not always the case but if you know the gear is good but it is expensive, you have a choice.
Have a look at what has happened to Scarpa boot prices over the last few years. Last pair cost me less than $300 and now they're over $400.
Why?
Is it because of a lack of competition for high end boots? No answer needed, it's just an example.
People cannot always afford the best of the best because it might last longer. So there are options. Unfortunately, most of these options are Chinese and fall apart when relied upon most.
Not the end of the world on a day walk if it didn't cost you a fortune to buy, but...
For example...
About 20 years ago I went for a walk with a mate. He had a cheap $200 chinese copy of a tunnel tent, it had fibreglass poles, but was supposed to be a 4 season tunnel tent.
We got as far as Moonlight ridge and decided we didn't want to go to LaPerouse any more. So we set up camp, sheltered by the ridgetop.
The forecast was for the winds to die down overnight then strengthen again on Sunday.
Instead, during the evening the winds shifted 90 degrees and was now at full force on the side of the tent. We were camped on about a foot of compacted icy snow.
Boats were blown from their moorings in Sandy Bay, the Burnie courthouse lost its roof, and we are in a cheap tent that got totally destroyed throughout the night. Sleeping bag soaked - totally saturated. We survived the night and got out of there the next morning.
I'd say we were lucky.
My point is that sometimes your life will be dependent on your gear. Take rock climbing. Would you use cheap shackles etc that you bought from HK on eBay, or would you buy a reputable brand from a source you trust?
If the gear is to use as a backup to something else when lopping a tree in your back yard, fair enough. If the gear is to be relied upon halfway up a cliff, well, I'll have the expensive one thanks.
I have discussed my tripod in another topic on this forum. Cheap Chinese excrement. So often do I swear at it.
Problem is, the proper tripod will cost me three times as much which I currently cannot afford.
So like my mate and his tent, starting off with what you can afford, and learning (or knowing) that you will expect to replace it with something better one day. Or just keep buying new cheap ones.

Take a look at washing machines - I found a great write up a while back. Hang on...
Found it.
http://www.washerhelp.co.uk/reviews/miele-overview.html

What's wrong with cheaper washing machines?

The trouble with many washing machines these days, is that their design and reliability seems to be dictated almost entirely by costs. The majority of washing machine manufacturers are fighting out a long running price war, which will probably end up with them all being taken over by large global companies until there are just one or two companies making washing machines worldwide. Already, many apparently competing washing machines are actually owned by the same companies. ( Who owns who? Who really makes your washing machine )

In an ideal world, companies making a product should make it as well as they possibly can, and then sell it at what it costs, plus the profit margin. Unfortunately though, this results in a product costing a lot more than the average person is prepared to pay. So manufacturers usually do it the other way round. They find out or guess what most people will pay and build the product to sell at that price. This usually results in a lot of corners being cut, then as competition increases, these products can become lower and lower in quality until they become rubbish - but most people still buy them because they won't pay for a "proper" one. People usually get what they pay for. Frankly, if you've had nothing but trouble for many years with your washing machines and think they are rubbish, it's possibly because you won't pay up for a good one. To be fair though, most people just don't think of it like this, or aren't even aware that high quality washing machines are available. ( If you're thinking, "what does he mean, I paid a lot of money for my last washing machine?" Read this - If I buy a more expensive washing machine do I actually get a better one? )

The manufacturers who have decided to compete in the most competitive price range, must keep their washing machines strictly within this price range at all costs. As manufacturing costs constantly increase, they daren't pass on the costs to customers. Manufacturing costs constantly have to be cut to maintain the final selling price and stay in the competition. To be fair, many cost savings are achieved with improved manufacturing techniques and other methods, but there's only so far you can go without having to start compromising quality.

Ultimately, the obsession with supplying washing machines at ridiculously cheap prices has resulted in a plethora of virtually throwaway washing machines. These washing machines are noisy in operation, dance around the kitchen, and suffer long known about and totally unnecessary breakdowns.

I've seen mains cables and fill hoses get so short they don't even reach in many situations. Many washing machines now have basic time-locks which make a customer wait two minutes to open the door whereas before they had more sophisticated (and more expensive) systems that let the customer into the machine as soon as it stopped.

Over the last 30 years, I've seen many individual parts getting cheaper - but much poorer in quality. Dozens of metal parts have been replaced by plastic parts, and parts that used to be repaired if a minor fault occurred, now only come as complete items. The worst example of this is when a simple coil goes open circuit on a motor, or a bearing wears. The only option on many of the cheaper washing machines is to fit a whole new motor which costs nearly as much as the machine did in the first place. This, is one of the hidden costs of cheap washing machines.

In fact, many of these manufacturers now appear to rely heavily on the profit from supplying spare parts to make up the shortfall in profit from making the washing machines in the first place. If this is the case, then they don't have much incentive to improve the quality of some of the parts inside.

Interesting points - and from another article

The reason I make this comparison is that it concentrates the mind on how unrealistically cheap many washing machines now are. I really don’t know how so many manufacturers of washing machines are still in business when the product they produce is apparently valued so little that they can’t even sell them at a reasonable price. At £199 the washing machine is not going to get repaired. Most people will dump it the first time it breaks down. Even the manufacturer’s repair agents will charge £97 (inc. VAT) to repair it out of warranty and that’s if it didn’t need any spare parts (last price check Jan 2007) They can’t just keep churning them out in their millions forever, they are overfilling our landfill sites.

We’ve had throwaway products for many years and I don’t mind admitting that it never bothered me before. Advances in manufacturing that enables production of very cheap products inevitably means they will never be economical to repair but it just didn’t seem too bad when I was throwing away small items. Now that the not-worth-repairing problem has started to include big things like washing machines and fridges it doesn’t seem right any more. Maybe it’s now time to consider making it illegal to produce certain products that can’t be economically repaired? Where is all this leading?

Where is all this leading indeed.
If the reputable brands cannot compete because everyone seems to be buying the cheap stuff, it may come to pass that the reputable brands will no longer have a market and so they will close down.

I've waffled enough, my point is that when buying gear, everyone should consider what they are going to be using it for, how reliant they will be on that gear for their comfort and/or survival, and whatever other benefits there might be in buying a more expensive / less Chinese item.
Then choose where to shop accordingly.
My two cents seventeen dollars and sixty five cents.

[Nuts]

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[adventurescape]

I like the idea of the mobile truck Nuts! One truck for Tasmania and do expo days in every major center and advertise the time and location in forums and through walking clubs. Why not, Wurth and Snap On tools do their business in a similar fashion. It eliminates the risk people feel buying online without seeing a product and paying to and fro postage in the case of wrong size etc.

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[ChrisC]

Interesting comments. I'm keen to support local companies as I think it augers well for the future. It may cost more but the value is there. I have supported One Planet for tents, packs and jackets for the school and have just bought an Aarn tent and pack to trial out for the staff. Yes, I consider NZ local!! As I get older I am looking for lighter and easier to use.
Cheers

[Franco]

"It is rather puzzling that an Aussie direct sales website does not not exist so this tends to suggest that Australian Distributors are at play in price fixing"
Brett having worked for 30 years next to all the major shops in Melbourne, I can assure you that there is no "price fixing"
( I know personally several of the owners/managers)
For a start there are on line stores, here is a link to two of them :
http://www.hikelight.com.au/
http://www.paddypallin.com.au/default.aspx

next, as I already pointed out before, it is incredibly difficult to compete with American stores that have enough volume to be able to sell at very low margins.
To have an on line store it involves a considerable amount of initial investment and at least two staff members that know how to maintain it.
In my business, photographic, we were the first in Australia to go on line but for the first 3 or 4 years that was a liability that caused a lot of problems and heartaches ( how many shops are prepared to pay two wages for a few years for almost no return ?) . Eventually we got on top of it mostly because one guy was particularly keen (and capable) putting in a lot of work on his own time including many w/e. Not many people like that about...
The same "observations" people make about the outdoor industry are made about the photographic one, yet Elizabeth St in Melbourne is known in the trade as "blood alley". Many have opened a shop there only to lose everything they had and leave a lot of debts going bankrupt. Guess who had to cover those debts ? The same wholesalers that are usually maligned for "profiteering".
I really wish that people that express these kind of comments would talk to someone in the industry before they do so.
Franco

[photohiker]

I used to do my research in the shops in Melbourne when I lived there. After a bit of a gap and moving to Adelaide I found I couldn't do that any more because the local shops don't seem to carry enough range between them. So research is now on the net, buy locally if the price is within shooting distance (and the item is even available) - otherwise buy online. I often land up buying online.

The problem is that we are now in an information-rich, competitive, world market and the local shops have not learned how to compete in that new space.

[woka]

I buy about 90% of my stuff locally. I always barter or wait for specials, and rarely pay full price. I think, while it might always appear to be cheaper online, it's not always the case.

Here's an example. I recently bought an MSR WindPro gas stove. The best online price I found was AU$149. The best local price was $189. Pretty clear which one is cheaper, right? This is what really happened:

I bartered with the person in the shop - couldn't get a discount, but he threw in two cannisters of gas - value $14.
As a member of said shop, I get 10% rebate - value $18.90.
I didn't have to pay postage - saving $10.

So comparatively, I paid 189 - 14 - 18.90 - 10 = $146.10.

Plus I get local support (which is hopefully worthwhile).

I'm not saying I wouldn't buy online - I bought my tent on-line because it was $300 versus $430 locally. But most of the time after I've done the sums, I pay about the same or a small amount more buying locally.

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[alliecat]

Unfortunately, the local shops (in Hobart):

• Mostly don't stock the brands I'm looking for.
• If they do stock the brand, they don't have the item I'm after.
• They will only order particular items reluctantly (or not at all) and with a delay of months.
• The staff have very little knowledge about the gear they sell and gear in general.
• For many items, the prices are ludicrous compared to importing the item direct.

Some of the really good gear that is available here is from companies that protect their Australian distributors by banning direct imports. I will not purchase gear from those manufacturers. I'm happy to pay a bit more for the convenience of seeing, handling, and purchasing a product locally, but I'm not prepared to pay twice as much as it would cost to buy and import from the US.

Local shops, and the importers, have to realise that they are now competing with online retailers around the world. To do that, they need to greatly improve their level of service and knowledge or they will simply be left behind. Yes it's tough to compete with major online retailers. But Dymocks is still around despite Amazon. So is Fuller's (as an example of a small local business).

Cheers,
Alliecat

[blacksheep]

a few quick comments-
-If there is a store in launie tha is selling NZ made Fairydown garments then you may get an idea of how much they sell- it would have been at least 4 years since they received that stock I'd guess...will they survive simply on this model?
-Brett- I think you are implying that the tail wagged the dog- Paddys were giving less and less space to macpac as they found more margin was available if they sold other brands...same happend in NZ, mostly with Bivouac. If they sell an Osprey, which they import,then they gain more profit. And as for trying to get an apparel/tent/sleeping bag/ daypack range in and having it well supported....increasing approaching impossible with retail stores getting more and more vertically integrated (some with one more link and therefore other brands, but the same model essentially).
-Supply agreements- basically it is standrad fare that if you appoint a distributor to a market area you enter an agreement that that distributor will support the brand, and you will not undercut the distributor with his territory. I suppose the brands feel that by requesting that an on-line retailer (with relatively low cost base and vendor supply agreements) not sell into a market where a distributor is carrying higher costs and risks is fair. I can see that point...But, like you, it drives me a little mad to find that pricing locally can be so out of line that it is hard to justify. (eg: recently I was looking for footwear barnds to retail- some distributor pricing was higher than some on-line pricing...that I believe is not at all comensurate with operational costs)
And MD's Launceston- yes, ownd by Ian Ferrier. A top guy-genuine and I have all the time inthe world for him. He is certainly one of the genuine outedoor enthusiasts I cam across in my tenure at MD's- I imagine service in his store is still at the levels we'd all appreciate. (just wish he'd stock Macpac..)

[Franco]

Brett

Franco then why is it the USA online stores are now saying (and this is first hand experience) that they are not "allowed" to supply direct to Australia certain brands but are happy to ship others

Please keep in mind that this is not personal and you are not alone in thinking like that...

When you take on an agency you are required to do a certain turnover to be able to keep it. On top of that you have to provide a minimum amount of service including for example training,spare parts and advertising.
A rep in Australia will be lucky to collect in a month the kind of orders that some retailers in the US make direct on line. Yet shops that turn over three tents a month want a rep to spend an evening demonstrating the product.
Now, in return the manufacturer grants sole rights to import and sell that brand.
If you were an importer you provably would like that too.
People often forget that if (as I pointed out before...) a line of product could be sold a lot cheaper than the opposition (at either wholesale or retail or both) would. In other words if Blacksheep (Macpac) could regularly sell his tents for $100 or $200 less, he would.
I have had the opportunity to have my own outdoor shop. Had the right contacts and some pretty good brands lined up as well as knowing many experienced sales people (friends) . Do you know why I did not take that opportunity ? Same reason why I don't have my own photo store. Because I know the industry from the inside and is nothing like what some think.

The reason why Macpac had to go direct was because, amongst others, Paddy Pallin at the time still had the Black Diamond/Bibler agency. Guess what was their favourite brand ?
They had Ex Officio and WM as well as their own. Guess what line of clothing/sleeping bags they were featuring ?

A friend of a friend thought pretty much like you do. He had a pile of money from his dad. Opened a shop in Swanston St and later another in Little Bourke. Imported his own line of clothing (from China) as well as stocking stuff from Active8. Lasted less than two years , lost his and others money. He thought he was going to make a fortune...
About the same time Myer thought they would make a fortune with outdoor gear (my wife worked for them in training and development)
They set up a considerable amount of space in the Sport department, the "Basement" (yes lots of easy money there too...) employed many staff members, spent a fortune launching it and closed down two years later.
But go right ahead, get your own shop, I could be your customer.
Interesting that you comment on Kathmandu. They succeed because their advertising appeals to people that have no clue whatsoever about gear or prices. Therefore they prefer buying a $200 backpack for $250 there because it used to be "$399" than a similar $200 backpack from Paddy that used to be ....$200.
So in fact the ones that succeed are not the ones that have the right gear and employ knowledgeable stuff and low prices. Totally the opposite.

Franco

By the way I was typing as Blacksheep posted his comment....

[Bivouac Gary]

Blacksheep

Certainly do not want to get into any long discussions her but just want to point out a little inaccuracy. Osprey is imported into NZ by a company owned by the same family trust that owns Bivouac but the purchasing decisions are made independently by different teams of people. Bivouac profits (and my job performance) are not viewed any better from selling an Osprey pack than when we sold a Macpac and are kept seperate to maintain that independence in decisions based on range rather than obssessing on margin.

We were one of Macpac's biggest customers at the time of its sale and the dwindling in Macpac large pack sales was to us a reflection of trends in the NZ market about use and lighter smaller packs becoming popular rather than larger volume canvas packs. We continued to stock pretty much the full range of Macpac packs and they enjoyed wide staff support right up to the time we were unable to buy them any more. Osprey formed a useful alternative design and fit with a quality international brand but it did not squeeze Macpac out.

Macpac as a company made the choices it felt was right for the development of the brand and we all move on in business. Our pack wall of Osprey, Cactus, Black Diamond, Berghaus and Arc'teryx is pretty well stocked but some of our customers may still choose to go to a nearby Macpac store and buy a Macpac Pack. That is all comes down to individual preference and how well our staff and the different brands present the options. This is the fun of it all.

This week I will get to browse through the trade show stands of Osprey, Black Diamond and Arc'teryx for next year's ranges and know all three have great new innovations to present. This competition drives Macpac to innovate also so the winner is the consumer in choice and new ideas. It is unfortunate that not all options can be shown in every city but good specialty retailers hunt out what works for their market and usually present a good range of options.

Certainly do not want to open up any Macpac direct discussions as that is history. The sudden change did limit the availability of the brand to many but that is being worked on and with Macpac internet sales it is now available to buy at least. It was a complicated scenario and everyone is trying to run a successful business and do the best for their customer - just sometimes it is looked at differently depending on your history and personal gear preferences.