Shell jackets for summer conditions in Tas and NZ?

[flatfoot]

I'm planning to walk the Overland Track in December and also walk some of the famous south island tracks in NZ (Milford Track, etc) in future years. At this stage I think I would only attempy these walks in summer. I also have family in Tasmania so since I am down there each year I might do other multi-day walks in the future (e.g. south coast).

I'm bamboozled by the range of shells and fabrics available and I am not sure where to start. Whilst there have been posts that have discussed specific products I could not find a thread that was a more general discussion. I'm hoping for some good feedback - much along the lines of the thread What do y'all wear on your legs when it rains?

So I am looking for something that's suitable for the wet / windy conditions that Tas and NZ have to offer. I also understand that sometimes in summer snow can be experienced on The Overland.

You tend to hear about goretex - but what are the comparable products? The fabric terminology is confusing.

I have a DrizaBone mid-length oilskin bushman's jacket that I've had for years. It's sheds water quite well but it's got a flannelet lining so I am concerned that it will eventually get wet and just won't dry out.

Which of the Montane shells are most suitable for the summer conditions discussed above for NZ & Tas. What products from other vendors do you regard as comparable? What about other lightweight gear that packs small?

Thanks!

[corvus]

G'day flatfoot,
For what it is worth in my many years of BW in Tassie I have used the Oiled Japara,Dry Waxed Japara,Millair,Hydronaut, and to date I believe Gortex really suits our conditions,expensive yes but worth it in the long term
corvus

[Son of a Beach]

I have a DrizaBone mid-length oilskin bushman's jacket that I've had for years. It's sheds water quite well but it's got a flannelet lining so I am concerned that it will eventually get wet and just won't dry out.

I started bushwalking with a basic flannelette-lined japara. The main problem with those is that they're just way to hot! Getting wet from sweat was then a secondary problem. Very waterproof though.

Goretex and eVent seem to be the two most well-known fabrics these days. They appear to be fairly similar. The aim of both is to not allow water to seep or soak through the fabric, while still allowing water vapour to pass through. Thus they are effectively waterproof, and breathable, so that they can still allow sweat to dry out while wearing them in the rain. They both require careful handling with washing, and occasional DWR treatment in order to continue providing good service. Pay careful attention to the garment care label. It generally involves gentle, warm machine was, and a warm tumble dry (at least that's what the label on my rain coat says). The DWR is a treatment that causes water to bead on the fabric, rather than soak into the protective outer layer of the fabric (which would prevent vapour from passing through the fabric).

[flatfoot]

That clarifies things. I read mention of an 'Event" jacket. I thought that was a particular jacket rather than the fabric used. I can see via a web search that there are a number of manufacturers of jackets that use the 'eVent' fabric.

I also found this site which is informative from the perspective of gortex: http://www.gore-tex.com.au/jackets/w1/i1001169/

Lot's of choice there!

[bushrunner]

Also be aware that there are multiple types of the same fabric. For example, there are several types of gore-tex including performance, paclite and pro. There have been others in past too. Pertex has multiple varieties, not all of which are waterproof so if you see Pertex, make sure you know which one it is.

Different brands also use use their own proprietary fabrics or renamed licensed fabrics. Some are very good, some are not. For example my current jacket is made from aquafoil which is the proprietary fabric used by Berghaus, who also use various types of gore-tex. You will often see the proprietary fabrics on their cheaper models because they do not have to pay massive sums to companies like Gore in order to use them. This doesn't necessarily mean they are not as good as the more expensive models.

Shell garments also sometimes make reference to layers. You might see something which is 2 layer or 3 layer and so on. This refers to the how the fabric is constructed. The outer layer will be a tougher fabric with a DWR finish which causes the water to bead off the face fabric instead of soaking in. If it soaks in the garment will still be waterproof but will no longer breathe effectively. This also protects the waterproof membrane from damage. The next layer will usually be the waterproof membrane (be it Gore-tex or eVent or otherwise). A three layer garment will have a further layer protecting the membrane from inside so that the membrane is sandwiched between the tough, water-resistant outer fabric and the inside fabric so that the membrane is protected from the outside world and from you and your skin and what not. A 2 layer garment does not have this protective inner layer but will often have a mesh or something similar. You can usually identify the number of layers by looking inside. If you see seam taped grey or silver it is probably 3 layer, if you see loose mesh then it is 2 layer.

At the end of the day, the garment design is probably more important than the fabric used. Figure out whether you want a long coat style thing or a short jacket style thing. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Make sure that pockets are sealed somehow. Make sure the front zip has a storm flap (might be internal or external) and/or a watertight zip. My wife type's jacket has a watertight zip and an internal storm flap. My jacket has a normal zip and a double storm flap. Make certain that the hood fits you and a peaked hood would be preferable to keep water running down your face and into the jacket. Make sure that you get a jacket that still has room for layers inside. No point buying one that fits great over a tshirt but will not fit over several insulating layers.

Good luck.

[Taurë-rana]

bushrunner, that was really interesting, thanks. I was confused as well, just know that I wouldn't have been without my Gore-tex knee length jacket on my last long walk. I nearly lived in it, and it kept me pretty dry, and warmish.

[flatfoot]

Many years ago I went trout-fishing with some friends up near Adaminaby in the snowies. We arrived late at night. Since I don't really like fish I didn't really participate in the fishing so I spent most of the Saturday trying to keep warm in my full-length drizabone - just by wandering around. It was bucketing down. In the end we all gave up, packed up and ended up staying in a warm pub in town. Thinking about that reminds me of how heavy the drizabone coats are. I've got the full-length version and the shorter bushman version. For comparing weight, I think I will put these on briefly before heading out to try on gortex or similar jackets.

[Ent]

Breathability is the grail of wet weather gear as you will find slogging up a hill perspiration can make you wet if not wetter than rain. Use to work for a company that imported a lot of windproof polar fleece for the tourist market that is very price sensitivity. The most common material used was a pvc type material between two layers of fleece. Ok for the short walk from the hotel to the bus but not what you would want for a long slog up a hill. Still at forty dollars a garment you can not expect much. Though the price you pay for Gore is not so much for the higher cost of manufacturing as for the royalties and marketing so there are other cheaper products out there that might just fit your bill.

The membrane garments work by having holes big enough to let out the water from perspiration when in gas form but small enough to stop the water molecules in liquid form getting in. Gore was the first person to stumble across this when working for 3M but finding not much interest started his own company and with smart marketing and a holistic approach to garment design and a genuine warranty that is honoured achieve big market share and top margins along the way. Curiously his patent was on using I think Teflon or something similar not on the actual concept of having the correct size hole so this meant any firm with technical nous can get the same effect proving they do not use the material that Gore uses. I have a collection of jackets using various brand names using this approach but found Gore-tex works the best but then again a few people have found not much difference between Chameleon and Hydronaut to name but two.

The membrane is very thin and quite fragile so is bonded to a protective layer which can be just the outer (two layer) or sandwich between (three layers) Gore-tex as mentioned comes in many grades of protective nylon from ultra tough (traditional heavy nylon) to ones that pack well such as Pac-lite with Pro-Shell being the most expensive designed to be tough and pack reasonable well also with an improved membrane. Because Gore first used an ultra heavy and tough nylon protective layer many people still consider this to be the proper Gore-tex and jackets over fifteen years old are still going strong despite harsh conditions. This comes at the cost of weight and a hefty price. The classic Tassie jacket is made out of this material and goes just to above the knee length. Sadly such style has all but disappeared due largely to its cost and the introduction of Gore-tex pants. Still I want one! The Paddy Pallin Vista is about the last of the bred but is in a lighter protective material and bit shorter than I would like, but I am told that even that classic might be disappearing from the market. Many on this site hold that the ultra-tough is the way to go while others hold it is overkill. Pac-lite is tough enough for most things but you have to admire a garment that is fifteen years old and still going strong so chose what suits you best.

Like most things there is more than one way to achieve the same result and that is with a durable water resistant (DWR) coating over an open weave material. Yeap, that is the oilskin which is a canvas type material soaked in oil Here the oil causes the water to bead and because the beaded water is much bigger than the weave it can not get in while the gas form of water can get out. The old timers then used ventilation systems such as vents covered from downward rain and for many years everyone was happy with the Japara. I lost mine many years ago but I still have fond memories of it. Of course it weighed heaps and took up space but in the olden days nobody seam to worry too much about this. Technology has moved on and Montane use this approach with a very light material and top quality DWR coating. One day it will rain so I can see how well this works for me.

As mentioned frequently careful washing is needed to protect the DWR as normal domestic powders and liquids are designed to remove oil and grease so attack the DWR. It can be reapplied but again as mentioned this seams to be more an art and than a science. Also tumble drying will reinvigorate some DWR. As usual best follow the manufacturers instructions.

Basically I have found Gore-tex garments are of a good design (Gore-tex I believe vets the design from manufacturers) with good performance and honours warranty issues but charges top dollar. With other manufacturer's materials it is very hit and miss. Event claims to be better but it is equally as expensive and frankly both Gore-tex and Event have test that "prove" each other to be better so beware of marketing hype and over inflated egos selling a particular garment made out of one or the other materials as there is no officially recognised standard that I can find on breathability just a lot of claims. One little snippet on how toxic is the relationship between those two brands is a garment manufacturer can not use both so we the consumer can not get the best material for the job from one manufacturer. No problem if the garment manufacturer uses another brand. Strange indeed is the world of business. Repel is Mountain Designs choice for a cheaper alternative as is NGX is for Kathmandu but both marketers still use Gore-tex for their top of line garments. I have a pair of Repel Photon pants that again I am waiting for heavy rain to compare to the Gore-tex ones I have. I am highly impressed by my Gore-tex ones already so the Repel ones have a high bar to aim at but a $99.00 much cheaper and also much lighter and pack might tighter.

Basically you have multiple choices of materials and garment designs at huge pricing difference. As mentioned in my opinion Gore-tex is a safe, if very expensive, choice. On the cheaper materials (relatively speaking) check out what people have to say about Repel and NGX as garments made of those materials when on usual special price are considerably cheaper. If you go light weight then Montane has a great reputation but it is not cheap. Regardless of the material and brand selected carefully follow the care instructions as you can quickly compromise performance, sometimes treatments will repair the damage but prevention as they say is better than the cure.

Hopes this helps.

Cheers Brett

[Taurë-rana]

Having worn drizabones for horse riding, I wouldn't consider wearing them bushwalking due to their weight.

[Taurë-rana]

I got told that Gore-tex only breathes well below 10degrees, wouldn't be surprised if this is the case.

[flatfoot]

Pleased with the particularly informative posts here. Thanks!

Note the following bargain alert for a Gore-tex jacket: http://www.paddypallin.com.au/default.a ... &Group=486
$349.95 marked down to $174.97. Unfortunately the only available size (L) doesn't look right for me.

[bushrunner]

I got told that Gore-tex only breathes well below 10degrees, wouldn't be surprised if this is the case.

Gore-tex requires a temperature differential to breathe properly. It needs to be warm on the inside and cool on the outside.

[Azza]

Being someone who has done a bit of Mountaineering in NZ, Snowboarding all round the place, and a fair bit of SW Tas on and off track walking
I find having a versitile shell jacket with Pit Zips very handy.

Goretex is pretty popular in this part of the world - proximity to NZ? In the past it has been less common in the US and Europe from what I can tell.
I think its important with any of these fabrics is to check that jacket seams are properly taped and sealed.

Some mates once bought some unbelievably cheap jackets online from the US. They were North Face knock off's and looked the part but the seams weren't taped so while they claimed to have fancy fabric - they leaked pretty badly and were useless for anything other than dry conditions.

[Ent]

Today I wandered the local bushwalking shops hunting out jackets and the styles around, not that I need an excuse to do that It is interesting to see the fashions come and go and also the pricing policy used Kathmandu that seams to be afflicting some other marketers. Pair of Kathmanu woollen underwear boxer shorts at above seventy dollar full price while the design leader, Icebreaker, was $53.95 full price at MD. I think it is clear to most thinking people what the marketing tactics are of Kathmandu but then again there are non so blind that chose not to see so stay tuned for the sound of running feet and claws been drawn on at least this point of my post.

Anyway back on jackets. Interesting to see underarm zips are now quite common on many jackets regardless the material used. Also interesting on how some had the zips protected by a material flap while others had exposed zips. However, it was interesting chatting to a long time seller of bushwalking gear on what is the perfect Tassie jacket design and material. He is a fan of the Performance-shell version in the Gore-tex range as it is tough as nails and offers a better price to performance trade-off compared to the Pro-shell. Also (unprompted by me) mentioned that jackets tend to get burdened with unnecessary features such as ventilation zips that many people do not use which naturally adds to the all ready high cost. So the "perfect jacket" would be made out of Gore-tex Performance-shell with minimal bells and whistles and be around knee length so you can say fish in shorts and keep them dry from the rain. Yes, he is an avid fisher as well as walker, and it can sometimes be missed that a large amount of bushwalking gear is brought by people whose main reason to go bush is to fish. Now "perfect" is a subjective thing so if you march to a different drum then a light weight shorter jacket designed to be worn with waterproof pants might be "perfect" so as always "perfect" gear choice will be a personal opinion

It was also interesting to check out the Mountain Design Stratus and noticed that for once on me a MD jacket had long enough sleeves in the XXL fitting as it has been many years since that was the case. When I mentioned this I was told that MD has adopted a longer sleeve approach for the larger fittings based on feedback from the shops. Also MD central has apparently shown real interest in listening compared to the darker days when insular centralised thinking ruled design control. All indications are some seriously gifted people dedicated to improving products through customer feedback are on board. The result in at least my humble opinion is an gradual improvement in design and fit. Hopefully one day we will see the advent of Short and Long fittings in some garment designs and this can only be a good thing for all of us. So the Stratus is a pretty close fit but could do to be a bit longer in the body and a bit cheaper by dropping the bells and whistles but even then it is an impressive jacket. But then again some could consider this opinion to be unsafe

Cheers Brett

[flatfoot]

Having worn drizabones for horse riding, I wouldn't consider wearing them bushwalking due to their weight.

The long coat is certainly heavy. The shorter coat it not so bad. I'm planning to get a goretex jacket but will wait until after I've had more time research individual jackets.

I actually think that when I am ready to buy I'll make a trip into Kent Street, Sydney. I understand there are around 10 stores in there that sell goretex or similar jackets. I'm planning to buy in the October-November timeframe. Hopefully that will coincide with a sale in the lead-up to summer.

[Son of a Beach]

The thought police have removed all traces of the posts in this topic that were off-topic and/or in breach of forum rules, as well as other posts and comments that were related to these. A few posts have also had minor edits in order to keep the topic consistent with these removals.

[Taurë-rana]

The thought police have removed all traces of the posts in this topic...

LOL Dangerous stuff, thinking, or maybe they were removed for lack of thought? Sorry, couldn't resist. You two do a great job of keeping the forum pleasant for everyone.

[Lindsay]

Hi Flatfoot, I wore a driza-bone on the OT a few years ago (my first adventure upon getting back into walking) It kept the rain out well enough, however the lining became soaked with sweat and the whole thing became a sodden, heavy mass by the end of each day and was never really dry by the following morning. I would not wear one in the bush again. There are much better alternatives out there.

Kent street behind the town hall is the place to go for all the outdoor shops in one area. The young bloke at Pallins (I forget his name unfortunately) took a lot of time fitting me with a new pack a while ago and the staff there seem to know their stuff.

Lindsay

[adventurerichard]

Personally I couldn't care less about jacket length but i know some people do. If it's raining that hard i've got my overpants on anyway (in which case it makes no difference) and if it's just light, it's merely the difference between getting wet from say the pant pockets down or getting wet from mid thigh down - i.e. 6 inches.

Pit zips under the arms? meh. seeing as i don't walk with my arms up i find them really ineffective. i used to have them on an old Jack Wolfskin (german brand) jacket and they did stuff all except add weight, a stiff feeling from the insertion of the zip on the fabric right where you want some flex and add cost.

The most important two things for me straight up: a good hood that fits (suggest trying a few instore) and, a double flap over the front zip (a single just lets water in during prolonged rain).

Otherwise make sure that you get a 3 layer style for durability rather than a 2 layer. Without going into the 3 v 2 layer here unnecessarily, let me know if you'd like a run down on the pro's and cons of this.

[flatfoot]

Lindsay - thanks for the experience regarding the DrizaBone. Most of my walks in the next six months will generally be just west of Sydney. The DrizaBone should be bearable for that (for now). It will be interesting to see how it feels on a walk with a pack. In the past I haven't done a great deal of walking in it.

[tasadam]

The thought police have removed all traces of the posts in this topic...

LOL Dangerous stuff, thinking, or maybe they were removed for lack of thought? Sorry, couldn't resist. You two do a great job of keeping the forum pleasant for everyone.

I didn't check this topic.
I would have thought a fairly active topic with this title would be relatively safe.
Seeing some of the stuff that was removed, apparently not...
So much for thinking...