Bushwalk Australia

Well The Ent and I have both bought new tents in the last few weeks, and having neither had a chance to use them (except in the front yard) we decided to have a "tent-off" on the neutral turf of Corvus' front lawn.

In the grass green corner we have my new MSR Hubba Hubba HP, whilst in the dark green corner we have Brett's new Hillebarg Nallo 2. For good measure Corvus dragged out his Tarptent Scarp and old Fairydown? Snow Cave.

There was a gentle breeze and we finished up in light rain and were on a mowed lawn, so hardly destructive testing. Here are the results in a few categories. This is my assessment - perhaps I'm biased, but I'm sure I'll get a rebuttal if the Ent or Corvus disagrees!

ERECTION: TIED
The Hubba Hubba has an advantage here in that it is free standing, however the Nallo has integral pitch and/or outer pitch first. The Hubba can be pitched outer first, but only with the optional footprint, it is however quicker and easier in fine conditions or on rock and tent platforms. So both have advantages and disadvantages, take your pick. Without the optional footprint for the MSR the Nallo easily wins in my opinion.

MATERIALS: TIEDHilleberg Nallo 2
Both feel like high quality materials. The MSR uses 20 denier ripstop nylon that is Silicon and PU coated on the fly (to 1000mm) and PU coated on the floor (to 10,000mm). The Hilleberg uses "Kerlon 1200" Nylon that is siliconised. Not sure what Kerlon 1200 is but it feels much the same to the Hubba Hubba. The floors are both quite good too, the MSR is rated to 10,000mm and the Nallo feels at least as good. The inner of the MSR is DWR coated, I assume the Nallo is also? Turns out Kerlon 1200 is 30 denier ripstop nylon coated to 3000mm - but it may or may not be Nylon 6-6 (which has advantages) like the MSR. The floor is 70 denier nylon and PU coated to 5,000mm, thus tougher but technically less waterproof (though fine in my opinion). Both inners are DWR coated, MSR is 20 denier, Nallo is 30 denier - though once again may not be 6-6.

PRICE: MSR Hubba Hubba HP
MSR = $450 USD (+$40 for footprint to enable outer pitch first if desired)
Nallo = $550 USD

PACKED WEIGHT: MSR Hubba Hubba HP
MSR = 1.9kg (+ about 300g for footprint to enable outer pitch first if desired)
Nallo = 2.3kg

SIZE, COMFORT & LIVABILITY: TIED
Once again both have positives and negatives.
The Nallo is wider and you can lay two men side by side comfortably, in the MSR it is a very tight fit. However in the MSR you can sleep head to toe and when doing so there is plenty of room, although if you can't pitch on flat ground this is a problem as you don't want your head down hill.
The MSR has vertical ends (as well as sides) and hence has more usable interior space. Both are similar length but in the Nallo your toes tend to touch the fabric above them. The head height is much greater in the MSR and two people can sit comfortably facing each other with room between for say a chess board? The Nallo is lower, especially at one end, hence making it less comfy for two people sitting, unless one is shorter (which with couples is quite often the case).
The Nallo has a very large vestibule, the MSR has two smaller ones. Both systems have there advantages. I prefer the two smaller ones, Brett prefers the one big one, take your pick. In the summer the MSR can be opened up on both sides and is a lighter colour, so should be cooler and more comfortable.
In my opinion, as a single person tent (which is mostly what we have bought them for), the MSR wins, as a 2 person tent then it's an interesting question as the Nallo is much better for sleeping, the Hubba is better for living. Maybe tall skinny people take the Hubba, short and wide take the Nallo??
The interior of the MSR is brighter. Both have handy pockets and the MSR has a mesh loft (removeable). The Nallo also has a sort of "clothes line" up the centre.

VENTILATION: Hilleberg Nallo 2
The MSR has decent ventilation with a vent at both ends and the vestibule zips can be ziped down from the top, but there is no weather protection on the zips.
The Nallo is better. It has a huge weather protected and adjustable vent over the vestibule at the highest point of the tent, as well as a small zippered vent at the toe.
Stopping ventilation in cold weather is also much better in the Nallo. All the fly vents can be closed, as they can be in the MSR, but there are also covers over the mesh panels in the inner tent. The MSR is also mostly solid, but it's small mesh inner vents can not be closed.

STABILITY: Tied (MSR minor to moderate snow, Nallo in extreme snow).
Both should be quite stable in wind. In very heavy snow I would trust the Nallo more not to be totally crushed under masses of snow. BUT it would be less comfortable before any collpse, as the toe area is very flat and would be prone to snow being collected and pushing it down onto the users foot area, this may also be the case between the main hoops to a lesser degree. Both would take a fair bit of snow, I suspect if one were to collapse catastrophically it would be the MSR, but the user would be totally un hinderd until such time, unlike the Nallo.

COLOUR & LOOKS: MSR Hubba Hubba HP
To me at least

LONGEVITY Hilleberg Nallo 2
Both should last well. The only negatives I see are with the MSR. Although the 4 main wear points are very well reinforced, there are two points on the ridge where the inner clips to the pole. At these points the fly sits on the clip, creating a small pressure point. I doubt it will be an issue for a long time - but may be, I will add some sail tape just in case. Also the Nallo zips feel a little tougher. Finally if either was to ever break a pole the Nallo has externally sleeved poles, thus meaning no damage to the fly of the tent. On the MSR a broken pole could potentially puncture the fly.

ACCESSORIES: Hilleberg Nallo 2
Both have adequate accessories but the Nallo comes with more pegs than necessary and they are good 'V' shaped pegs. The Hubba Hubba HP has the right number of pegs, but they are very small square ones that would not hold well in soft ground. Having said that, only two of the pegs on the MSR take a heavy load, so I have replaced those two with MSR Ground Hog pegs. The MSR comes with a pole sleeve to repair a pole, as well as the necessary guys and an MSR bumper sticker - yay! I imagine the Nallo is similar - minus the sticker!

CONCLUSION
Overall I don't really rate either as the winner. Bother are excellent tents, take your pick. I choose the MSR and would do so again, it's lighter, cheaper and more livable in my opinion. But the Nallo is also great and for two people with reasonably broad shoulders it is a better option come bed time on sloping ground. The Nallo is the tent for very cold conditions and the MSR would be better in the warmer months.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't compared the other two tents as they are of separate classes.

The Snow Cave is well over 3kg and quite old. It is a roomy and bombproof design. Two vestibules and with 3 hoops and ridge pole - bring on your worst mother nature! I suspect with modern materials this tent could get under 3kg, and as such would be a great heavy weather tent. Oh but the colour needs some work!

The Scarp/Scarp 2 is a fantastic design - one of the best in my opinion. The Ent and I are not sold on it's very thin floor and also it's fly to a lesser extent. I'm sure it would take a lot of weather, but rightly or wrongly things such as falling sticks would worry me. The workmanship is also not of the same standard as the MSR and Hilleberg. Having said that, Tarptents are significantly cheaper. Oh and the grey, come on Henry we're not in the Navy! I was very tempted by a Scarp 2 (higher ceiling - I find the Scarp to low), but just feel more sure of the MSR and think the Scarp is a tad 'fiddly' to set up. Dunno - I don't know what it is - maybe it's the colour? (am I that shallow ) But I just don't desire a TT like I do an MSR

Great report STH, can't wait to see how they peferm in the field.
FF

Interesting comparison ...

The Hilleberg comes in Red too, then it would look better!

I think the Hilleberg would perform considerably better in the wind. More guys ropes and shorter poles should really help this.

Also, what about livability when its raining? How easy is it to enter/exit when without getting the inner wet?

Hi

Tent selection is a matter of personal preference and also one most of us make without the benefit of seeing tents pitched side by side. Hillebergs almost have a cult following. If you fall in love with how a Hilleberg works the price just gets forgotten but if a bit more aware of the folding readies and weight then other brands get considered. One thing for certain, buying a tent alone on an impressive low weight eventually proves to be a bad idea. Both Corvus, Sthughes, Flyfisher and myself brought solo tents and found the models that we brought rather cramped with packs either been left outside in pouring rain or been a constant hassle in blocking the entrance or low head room. The Akto was probably the best of this bunch as you can stow the pack under cover but the low ends, especially with the trend to high sleeping mats such as the Neo Air and Exped ones can wear you down a bit, especially if tall.

So interesting to see how everyone went re-buying. Sthughes tried the cheap and cheerful option but found quality less than spectacular in that market so went with the MSR and was closely followed by Flyfisher. Corvus in respect to his knees decided on supersized Akto in the form of the Tarptent Scarp 1 and I decided to continue my love affair with Hillberg and went for the Nallo. For each person the choice was best for them Effective vestibule space for storing packs and cooking in is what turns me on. Lighter weight and the self supporting option of the Scarp along with integral pitch is where Corvus is at. Sthughes is a fan of a self supporting design and double entrances. Flyfisher has yet to see what he has brought

The MSR Hubba Hubba HP has a novel pole design that gives good straight wall height so on a smaller footprint it gives very effective space so if two adults sleep head to toe it is a very usable design. The small vestibules not a good point with me having experienced that issue with the MD Kaon. For the 90 litre pack brigade they could be too small. The quality of materials and construction is first class. For a person thinking more single person with occasional two man use it is hard to go past. The vents are a little low in the design but with two and the double ended door zips a bit of tinkering means it should give good condensation performance.

The Nallo is a true two person tent, but ghee I wish that the rear end did not drop so much as at 6'3.5" I am just within the Hilleberg maximum size model. The vertical end walls of the Kaitum are brilliant and is the perfect long person tent, just needs a spare landing strip to pitch the tent. The vestibule as mentioned is great and the entrance height very good with the option to fold the vestibule out of the way and enjoy the view. Being a tunnel tent it is peg central but you can use a minimum of four but using all gives a better pitch and interior space. Used as a two person tent the Nallo wins over the MSR but at the cost of weight. Ventilation follows the principle of hot air rising with a low rear vent and high front one and the inner skin is very water resistant. As a single person tent I could see myself sliding towards the MSR, especially if camping in tight difficult spaces. However, for most camping I would prefer the Nallo.

The Scarp 1 is a single person tent that in emergency could handle two. It is the Akto design but enlarged and lightened so a good starting point. The Akto vestibule is setup so you can cook in it during the most extreme weather, which I have done. The single ended zip of the Scarp and lack of protective hood means you can not, at least in my opinion, but given the presence of Scarp tinkers no doubt I will be told otherwise. I must admit I can not come around to the thin floor and occasionally rough finish. I have no doubt it will perform well in careful hands and been the latest and smallest plus cheapest of the group does a remarkable job. The vents are high on the fly so for a single person tent condensation should be well controlled. If weight was a major issue then the Scarp is king as it is the size that the Akto should have been. Now if the Akto was the same size then stuff the weight I would go with the Akto.

Snowcave. A blast from the past but if your thinking is hanging off Mount Cook it is the place to be. If the design was modernized with lighter fabrics and 9mm poles it would be hard to beat in that role plus as general tent. Though both Sthughes and I noticed that the tent is rather narrow compared to modern standards but nice and high.

So if you are solo walker liking space the MSR Hubba Hubba HP is the go with the option of fitting in a second person. If you plan two people up with some single person use then the Nallo is near perfect. If you plan single only with the emergency second person use and weight is a major factor then the Scarp 1 is the go. If you are planning solo in wet and wild weather then an Akto still has charms.

Cheers Brett

OH brett, you settled on the Nallo?
Seems like they're selling like hot cakes recently!

I know the scarp is a 4 season, and I pretty sure the Nallo is too.
But isnt the MSR advertised as a 3 season?

Yeah the whole "season" rating annoys me. Are there 5 seasons? Last time I checked there wasn't.

In my opinion all of these tents are of roughly equal "season" rating no matter what the manufacturer's jargon says. The snow cave is the only one here I would consider designed for loads and loads of snow. The Scarp with additional crossing poles would be next best.

I note MSR only go as far as 3 season (the HP series "holds its own in more extreme 3-season conditions") then move to just calling tents "all season", "super strong", "all weather" etc. Hence indicating essentially a 4 tier rating system with the Hubba Hubba Hp sitting at 3.5 or so.

Hilleberg seem to jump to "all season" a little earlier as no 2 pole MSR makes that category. While I think the Nallo will take a huge amount of snow, the user will not enjoy it and hence in my opinion it should be 3.5 season also. It will do it but really it's design does not suit such conditions.

Being able to close all vents is also an "all season" characteeristic to in my opinion. The Hubba and Scarp both fail on this front - the Nallo does not.

So to me I think comparing tent against tent is a better method than using manufacturers marketing jargon to compare them. In my "season rating" system they are all 3.5 season except the Snow Cave which is 4 season (or all season or whatever )

Good and interesting review.

Ent wrote:The Akto vestibule is setup so you can cook in it during the most extreme weather, which I have done. The single ended zip of the Scarp and lack of protective hood means you can not, at least in my opinion, but given the presence of Scarp tinkers no doubt I will be told otherwise.

Now I'm not going to 'tell otherwise' but I'm interested to hear what cooking in a tent during the most extreme weather consists of?

If you are suggesting cooking in the vestibule with the door closed (but vented at the top) then allow me to say that I wouldn't be comfortable or suggest doing that in any of these tents.

photohiker wrote:Good and interesting review.

Ent wrote:The Akto vestibule is setup so you can cook in it during the most extreme weather, which I have done. The single ended zip of the Scarp and lack of protective hood means you can not, at least in my opinion, but given the presence of Scarp tinkers no doubt I will be told otherwise.

Now I'm not going to 'tell otherwise' but I'm interested to hear what cooking in a tent during the most extreme weather consists of?

If you are suggesting cooking in the vestibule with the door closed (but vented at the top) then allow me to say that I wouldn't be comfortable or suggest doing that in any of these tents.

I do what you are suggesting. But only when it is seriously wet, cold or windy out. I always light the stove with the door open and most of the time leave the door open too.

Each to their own!

I have no issues with cooking in a tent in bad weather, as long as there is plenty of room and a stable base so as to not risk burning the tent. I would never ever have cooked in my Microlight - just too close to the fly in my opinion. The Hubba Hubba has an emergency exit as well

Edit: That's using a Kovea Supalight - I wouldn't do it with a petrol stove. Would be very careful with a metho one.

Great comparison guys. Just needed some inside pics with 'real world' gear in them, mats / bags etc to make it perfect. It is particularly hard to find pictures of the various tents with gear in the vestibules and mats and bags inside. The comments were very interesting anyway.

As you say everybody has different requirements and ideas. At the end of the day it always comes down to what compromises you are going to make and trade off's against all the things the perfect tent for you is (of which none exists on the market).

We went with the Nallo 2 as the best compromise for both of us camping together and still usable as a very luxurious solo as well. Means only one tent in the cupboard to save some $$$ as well. Not necessarily perfect for either but 'our' best compromise for doing both, others with different compromises to us will obviously differ with that opinion and that is ok.

We need more posts like this one, they are very useful when researching gear.

Thanks guys.

Just for the record, you can close the vents on the Scarp. In fact the one I can see above is closed...
Franco

I am referring to the mesh panes on the inner of the tent (i.e top part of the 'door'), not the vents in the fly which can indeed be closed on all the tents here. Sorry for the confusion.

sthughes wrote:PACKED WEIGHT: MSR Hubba Hubba HP
MSR = 1.9kg
Nallo = 2.3kg

Hmmm?

The manufacturer websites say that they weigh the same: Minimum weight (tent/fly/poles) = 1.9 kg.

http://www.cascadedesigns.com/msr/tents/fast-and-light-tents/hubba-hubba/product
http://estore.websitepros.com/1764795/-strse-75/Nallo-3/Detail.bok

Orion wrote:

sthughes wrote:PACKED WEIGHT: MSR Hubba Hubba HP
MSR = 1.9kg
Nallo = 2.3kg

Hmmm?

The manufacturer websites say that they weigh the same: Minimum weight (tent/fly/poles) = 1.9 kg.

http://www.cascadedesigns.com/msr/tents/fast-and-light-tents/hubba-hubba/product
http://estore.websitepros.com/1764795/-strse-75/Nallo-3/Detail.bok

He is referring to the "HP" version of the Hubba Hubba, which is packed weight of 1.9kg and minimum of 1.7kg. (see http://www.cascadedesigns.com/msr/tents/fast-and-light-tents/hubba-hubba-hp/product). The link you have is for the standard version ...

Orion wrote:

sthughes wrote:PACKED WEIGHT: MSR Hubba Hubba HP
MSR = 1.9kg
Nallo = 2.3kg

Hmmm?

The manufacturer websites say that they weigh the same: Minimum weight (tent/fly/poles) = 1.9 kg.

http://www.cascadedesigns.com/msr/tents/fast-and-light-tents/hubba-hubba/product
http://estore.websitepros.com/1764795/-strse-75/Nallo-3/Detail.bok

That is the Hubba Hubba, not the the Hubba Hubba HP you are referring to and have linked to. (P.S. whoops already said)

We are referring to packed weights and the packed weight of the Nallo and Hubba Hubba HP were weighed by us at 2.3kg and 1.9kg respectively. Although the Nallo did seem to have an additional peg or two to what was required, so their quoted 2.2kg may be accurate.

Orion wrote:I looked at the Hubba Hubba but wasn't thrilled with all the mesh on the tent. That wasn't going to fly for snow camping where spin drift can blow through the mesh. And I wasn't sure it was the best choice for our visits to Tasmania either where wind and rain can at times be constant.

I assume you are also referring to the Hubba Hubba and not the Hubba Hubba HP version, which has only small, higher level mesh panels as shown in this picture.

Yes, my error. Sorry for that.

Hi Photohiker

At Meston in the snow the Akto was brilliant in cooking in the vestibule. First unzip the bottom zip as a far as the conditions will allow and open the top zip as much as possible with the vent flap (wire reinforced) extended as far as possible to stop rain and snow coming in. Then sit like Buddha and away you go. The pack fits as well undercover with everything at hand. With a friendly passing stroller acting as waiter the food can be dispatched through the top vent and sent to another tent with nary a zip opened.

As the for the menu, cheese omelet with fried tomatoes and salami with the other meal being eggs and bacon plus Chai Latta. The bottom and top airflow means this works well with no gassing nor smoke out. Plenty of space above the stove flame as well in the Akto but a stable stove such as the Primus ETA running on gas a very good idea. As for a fuel stove this would be risky unless very stable and self contained as even the best ones will occasionally misbehave. Else you can do as featured in a Hilleberg tent cooking by Top Gear on the way to the North Pole using an old style self contained Primus fuel stove setup but me thinks that you might want to have a indicator that matches the canary yellow interior of a Hilleberg tent

It is funny how conditions vary across Australia and on walks. Pouring rain and driving wind has been the feature of the last few walks with scary flooded creek crossings. Never really spotted as much continuous rain as late with periods of twenty-four hour constant rains. Normally you get a break of half an hour but not of late. Such conditions are not uncommon to Sweden, home of the Hillebergs, and they are the only tent company I am aware of that makes a point of cooking in their tents, rather than the standard "DO NOT COOK IN THE TENT" common with other brands. The tent material is apparently fire retardant, which means it melt and probably smolder but no Hindenburg. Of course much better not to cook in a tent as is the idea of sleeping out under the stars is better than hunkered down in squall.

Of all the stoves on the market that I am familiar with the Gas converted Trangi or Primus Eta would be the best for vestibule cooking with the Primus Gravity coming in next. The worst, a misbehaving Whisper-lite would go close but I am sure there are worst ones out there.

Cheers

PS All tent weights were done on electronic scales. My Akto is quoted as 1.5 kilograms but weighs 1.6 kilograms. The MD Kaon actually came in under its stated weight but no bag for the tent poles. As Tony has pointed out on more than a few occasions manufacturer quoted weights are very suspect. I take the tent complete with all the bags and pegs. As for minimum weight, well, yes you do not need a tent peg bag until a peg goes through the fly. Personally I have zero respect for manufacturers that use the fly material as a tent peg bag rather than a more robust bag. I with the MD Kaon was lucky that a peg went outward through the tent peg bag and through the tent bag rather than towards the fly. A Sea to Summit tent peg bag was the fix and yes this weighs a few grams more but what is an intact tent worth? Hilleberg tent pegs come in a nice strong bag. Also, a wet tent weighs heaps more than the quoted weight so unless you live in a dry climate getting hung up on a hundred grams of so is rather moot point.

PS
Important correction the post.

The catalogue I was going from is the 2009 version and the comments were “Not long afterwards, we realized that it would be a great option to have a large vestibule for gear, food prep and so on”. What exactly food prep means I am not going into because on my Akto has the following warning.

“Keep all flames and heat sources away from this tent fabric…the fabric is not fireproof will burn if left in contact with any open flame".

In case that is not clear

“Never place your stove or any other heat source inside your tent”.

First time I read the warning label, but as that is one on the tent, that is the one to follow rather than a constructing cooking from the meaning for the words “food prep”. Will not change my habits as even steel will burn if left in contact with a flame of sufficient heat but that is my personal decision and is against the specific instructions of the warning label.

I read enormous amount of stuff so not sure my source of the fire-retardant belief but fire-proof is different to fire-retardant as water resistant is a lower standard to waterproof but even fire-retardant kids clothing will smoulder and melt leaving horrible injuries. I personally know an adult that was badly burned when as a kid playing with matches in a car interior. Yet another reason not to smoke but sadly many do. I suppose to be sure we should not cook in synthetic clothing but there is a difference to me between a hole being melted and the garment going up like a Roman candle that happened when kid’s synthetic clothing was first sold. Coating a tent in turpentine and silicon does not sound to me a good idea but some do that to improve weather resistance. But if they never cook in it or pitch it near a camp fire then does it matter?

No doubt some day I will track down the comments about cooking in a Hilleberg tent and the fire rating of the material but tonight is not it, and when I do, it will not matter, as the warning label is clear and that is what people should go on. I apologies for the statements made contrary to the warning label.

To be fair, tent pegs ,stuff sacks and guylines will always be criticised no matter what the manufacturers supply.
So for example as Brett likes a solid/heavy peg bag, many do not want a peg bag at all...
See the threads , for example, on how folk have made their Akto "lighter" by fiddling with the above bits.

To me it is pretty simple. If one likes a heavier duty accessory, well they are available .., nothing to do with respect.
Franco

Hi Franco

I like the idea that you get everything and then toss stuff out once you work out what is needed, or what is not needed. As for not having stuff reminds me of Jaguar's excuse in the seventies for not fitting a radio, "Customers of such refined vehicles will prefer to fit a sound system meeting their own needs". Wheels magazine laughed so hard over that response that Jaguar quickly relented and fitted an appropriate sound system. Maybe getting toys as a kid at Christmas without batteries has scarred me for life

It is a bit like the nice little rope bags that Exped provide, some love them, some do not, but those that do not like them can removed them. Trouble with a fragile peg bag is a wrecked tent, a pretty big thing. Sure a weight concerned person could put them in their titanium cookware (now this is probably the best use for titanium cookware ) and save a few grams.

Personal experience was almost a damaged tent but luck deemed otherwise. I like having everything together as having seen and experienced too many times the camp scene where the question asked is "where are the tent poles"

Basically I like manufacturers that think a little more. With Hilleberg it is the attention to detail that drags the money out of me. With the MSR is was good to see wear pads over critical rub areas. Things like that do not get noticed until many years of service and then are appreciated. Sure, a tinker can spend hours making adjustments but many people just buy an item to work, and work well, out of the box. To me seam sealing a tent is a pain but to others it offers hours of enjoyment

Cheers

Hi Brett,

Ent wrote:Such conditions are not uncommon to Sweden, home of the Hillebergs, and they are the only tent company I am aware of that makes a point of cooking in their tents, rather than the standard "DO NOT COOK IN THE TENT" common with other brands. The tent material is apparently fire retardant, which means it melt and probably smolder but no Hindenburg.

Fire retardant material and a manufacturer that supports use of cooking gear in their tents sounds really good.

Only problem is I have searched http://www.hilleberg.com/ and their (excellent) catalog, for direct references supporting these statements and can find nothing. No mention of cooking at all, and no mention of the fire retardant qualities of the tent material. Got a link?

Interesting thread. I have a Nallo2 and a Macpac Olympus (NZ manufacture). I have no concerns about my Nallo2; it has been in some truly foul weather (including heavy snow) and easily accounted for itself. Ditto for the Olympus (and over a much longer time). It stands to reason though, (and it is certainly my experience), that a well-designed and well-made single pole tent (of whatever permutation), or a two-pole winter tunnel tent such as the Nallo2, will be much more inclined to have its 'inner volume' somewhat compromised (reduced?) when it is under a load of heavy, wet snow than will, say, an equivalently well-designed and well-made three pole tunnel tent or a serious multi-pole dome tent. It isn't rocket science. Larger areas of unsupported fabric respond accordingly to a growing volume/weight of wet Australian snow accumulating on or against them. Similarly, a winter tent with a fly that reaches all the way to the ground (i.e. the Nallo2), is somewhat 'drier' in horizontal, driving rain than one in which the fly is 5 to 8cm off the ground (i.e. the Olympus), where the rain can be driven up the side of the inner tent. But, all things considered, the overall tent 'package' is made up of so many elements and different people rate those individual elements in so many different ways. For some, weight is paramount. For others the internal dimensions are the most crucial. The list goes on. I would be happy to sleep in any of the tents compared. They would be fine. Winter or summer. But which one would I buy? Ah, that's the rub and the reasons are often as illogical or reasoned as we are. Do I like its appearance? Do I like the colour? The fabrics? The price? Is it available now? Can I take it with me?

As for cooking in the vestibule, well, yes, if you do a lot of winter walking and xc skiing or winter climbing, you have no doubt cooked in a vestibule many times. I don't ever do it with a liquid fuel stove, as I have seen two burnt down before my eyes; not my tents, I hasten to add, but it was no fun either way. Once, just below the treeline on Mt Bogong's Staircase Spur, when a couple of chaps were trying to dry out a saturated tunnel tent on a cold, heavily snowing winter's night. They were lying on the floor with both ends of the tent wide open. The tent was starting to dry out. Then, the Trangia went out - all out of fuel, or so they thought. Did they exit the tent to refuel the stove with methylated spirits? Well, it was cold and snowing heavily, so they just opened the near full 1 litre fuel bottle and carefully poured. You guessed it. The stove was still alight and very quickly so was their tent after they dropped the now burning fuel bottle and it rolled across the tent floor and came to rest againt one of the walls. By the time they were able to put the flames out, they had less than half a tent left and consequently spent the night (and a very cold, wet, snowing night at that), wrapped up in a smallish ground sheet. By morning's light, they had already been up for three hours. Not much fun. The other time? A fireball of priming Shellite spat its way through the roof of the vestibule of another tunnel tent on a mid-winter walk and before you knew it, no more tent. Yes, it was raining heavily and it didn't let up the whole night. Not much fun for two more rather unhappy campers. I never ever use liquid fuel in a tent. Not methylated spirits, not Shellite, not kerosene (I'm in China), not diesel, nor any other liquid fuel. With gas, I do, but never with a cannister top stove. Brett is right. The Trangia with the gas conversion is less of a heart stopper and so far, I have managed to survive the experience, but you only have to see melting, flammable nylon or polyester stuck to human flesh to see what the other part of the equation can be. Bad weather + no tent + serious burns. Not nice.

This thread is interesting, but I think there is a very large list of tents that will bring you home in more or less the same condition as you set out. Some are better in some ways and others are worse in others, but there are a lot of tents. It's nice to talk about them and compare their good features - and their not so good features too, but in the end, walkers have been going out (and coming back) using tents that have been a hell of a lot worse than any of those compared here and they have had the most fabulous time of it. Sometimes, we lose sight of that.

rucksack

You really need a wind tunnel to assess a tent properly...

I have a Hubba Hubba HP which I consider to be a reasonable light weight tent.
My biggest criticism of the tent is that its stability in high winds isn't the best.
My tents first outing it was almost flattened in gale force winds.
I was struck in the head while laying down by the poles bending in the wind.
I spent half the night holding the poles in place to prevent the tent being ripped to pieces.

Any chance of strong winds the tend must be guyed out perfectly otherwise its at risk.
The side walls tend to push in and form a wind scope / sail. I've added extra guy ropes now to make sure its as bomb proof as it can be.

I quite like the space and the high roof and find it a good tent to take when not sharing the extra space is quite nice for the weight.
I got mine quite cheap - $330USD, personally I'd have felt a bit cheated if I'd paid a lot more based on it performance.

Overall its a pretty good light weight tent.
From what I've seen I quite like the Hilleberg's and would probalby look at getting one of them if I was in the market for a new tent.

rucksack wrote:Interesting thread..... in the end, walkers have been going out (and coming back) using tents that have been a hell of a lot worse than any of those compared here and they have had the most fabulous time of it. Sometimes, we lose sight of that.

Agreed. I fall sometimes for extreme comparative scrutiny of bits of gear - including vital gear, like tents. Sometimes though, I'm brought back to earth by a snapshot of a Paddy A-frame circa 1968, or a description of a long distance scrub, shale and mountain traversal, sheltering under crappy old canvas tarps - something like that..
I enjoyed this 'tent-off' though - thanks sthughes !
Would like to repeat the question asked here

Maelgwn wrote:How easy is it to enter/exit when without getting the inner wet?

Obviously it wasn't raining on your test-day - possible to estimate this though ?

Should be pretty easy. With dual vestibules you just pick the one on the leeward side. Might be worse in the nallo if the rain happens to be coming from that way, but it's a big beatingsvestibule (damn Ipod keyboard) so I think you would manage fine. Both flys cover the doors so runoff won't go in.
Edit: Yes covered doors so vertical rain not an issue on any of these tents.

Azza wrote:You really need a wind tunnel to assess a tent properly...

I have a Hubba Hubba HP which I consider to be a reasonable light weight tent.
My biggest criticism of the tent is that its stability in high winds isn't the best.
My tents first outing it was almost flattened in gale force winds.
I was struck in the head while laying down by the poles bending in the wind.
I spent half the night holding the poles in place to prevent the tent being ripped to pieces.

Any chance of strong winds the tend must be guyed out perfectly otherwise its at risk.
The side walls tend to push in and form a wind scope / sail. I've added extra guy ropes now to make sure its as bomb proof as it can be.

I quite like the space and the high roof and find it a good tent to take when not sharing the extra space is quite nice for the weight.
I got mine quite cheap - $330USD, personally I'd have felt a bit cheated if I'd paid a lot more based on it performance.

Overall its a pretty good light weight tent.
From what I've seen I quite like the Hilleberg's and would probalby look at getting one of them if I was in the market for a new tent.

Good on your honesty Azz.
Regarding the bending tent thing, I guess thats the price you pay for having a high roof.?

Before I decided on my Hilleberg I looked at these tents, I thought they were ridiculously overpriced.

sthughes wrote:Should be pretty easy. With dual vestibules you just pick the one on the leeward side. Might be worse in the nallo if the rain happens to be coming from that way, but it's a big beatings so I think you would manage fine. Both flys cover the doors so runoff won't go in.

Cheers. It's the "vertical rain falls on part of the inner when door is open" syndrome that drives me crazy . Sighted *still* on some recent US tents.
That such a fatal design flaw gets repeated over and over again leaves me baffled.
And determined not to actually buy one like that - again ..

Brett
The car stereo bit is a very good example of seeing the same thing from a different point of view.
What I see is shops like JB HI FI doing a roaring trade in car stereos. I bet that most of them go into new cars that come with a car stereo.
So what happens to the "old" but brand new unit that comes as standard ?
Well it ends up as land fill.
So you may think that it would be funny /unethical not to supply one , I think that it should only be an "extra" and not a standard item....

I am always ready for a good laugh.
I see how you go on about the Hilleberg perfection, yet the Akto is too short for you and the Nallo has already a mod...
(BTW, it isn't set up square in that shot)
Franco

Franco wrote:Brett
The car stereo bit is a very good example of seeing the same thing from a different point of view.
What I see is shops like JB HI FI doing a roaring trade in car stereos. I bet that most of them go into new cars that come with a car stereo.
So what happens to the "old" but brand new unit that comes as standard ?
Well it ends up as land fill.
So you may think that it would be funny /unethical not to supply one , I think that it should only be an "extra" and not a standard item....

I am always ready for a good laugh.
I see how you go on about the Hilleberg perfection, yet the Akto is too short for you and the Nallo has already a mod...
(BTW, it isn't set up square in that shot)
Franco

Hi Franco

I receive no commission or benefit from Hilleberg. So what I write is how I find them, not how I would like others to find them. The mod was based on a suggestion by Nuts on how to work on getting the toe end higher, it sort of worked a bit, but not much as the inner height was not changed, but it does give a bit more latitude if the feet press the inner to the outer. Um? I have mentioned on more than a few occasions with the Akto and Nallo that the rather steeply sloping toe end and issue this causes the taller person. The Kaitum is the ideal tent for tall people but this length means finding a spare landing strip to pitch it on, and this has its own challenges. Personally I would like all tents to be longer, tables higher, and free beer for all, but that is not going to happen,; sadly

My point is if a tent manufacture does not supply an adequate peg bags to protect an expensive tent then they are not assisting a buyer to look after their investment. If a manufacturer does this then they get points in my rating. It is very easy to win in weight/cost debates if the standard equipment that comes with one brand of a tent is not supplied by another. Then again some car manufacturers supply no spare wheel and give you a puncture repair can. Not much fun when your rim has exploded on a remote road but then again this is rural Australian not Roma so Fiat can be forgiven for not understanding, I suppose. Then again they are saving land fill from millions of spare wheels as at the end of the day most go unused. Stuck in the middle of nowhere or sitting on a mountain of spare wheels. I think the correct answer is forty-two.

Photohiker what Hilleberg one line catalog are you referring to? I went looking to see if it is the same as the around thirty-two page one that came with one of one of my tents but could not find it online. I will have a look at home to see if I still have mine but fear it might have been chucked due an ill advised clean up of paperwork in my unit.

Regards

Just browsing through a Hilleberg Catalogue found from google (http://www.hilleberg.se/08Hilleberg-English.pdf) I didn't find the answer about cooking in the tents (except for one small photo which looks like a trangia in a tent) but did find more details on the fabrics.

sthughes wrote:MATERIALS: TIED
Both feel like high quality materials. The MSR uses 20 denier ripstop nylon that is Silicon and PU coated on the fly and PU coated on the floor. The Hilleberg uses "Kerlon 1200" Nylon that is siliconised. Not sure what Kerlon 1200 is but it feels much the same to the Hubba Hubba. The floors are both quite good too, the MSR is rated to 10,000mm and the Nallo feels at least as good. The inner of the MSR is DWR coated, I assume the Nallo is also?

The Nallo uses a 70-denier PU coated floor, which they rate to only 5000 mm but should be more durable than the 40D used in the MSR. The inner tent is indeed DWR coated on the Nallo also.

crockle wrote:Cheers. It's the "vertical rain falls on part of the inner when door is open" syndrome that drives me crazy . Sighted *still* on some recent US tents.
That such a fatal design flaw gets repeated over and over again leaves me baffled.
And determined not to actually buy one like that - again ..

Yes I agree totally. There seems to be a few tents in that category, even reputable brands like Macpac & One Planet My first bushwalking tent was like that - never again!

Ent wrote:Then again some car manufacturers supply no spare wheel

Or a *&%$#! space saver Damn you Mitsubishi

Maelgwn wrote:The Nallo uses a 70-denier PU coated floor, which they rate to only 5000 mm but should be more durable than the 40D used in the MSR. The inner tent is indeed DWR coated on the Nallo also.

Thanks for that Maelgwn. I looked on the Hilleberg site but could readily see anything.

Looks like the Hilleberg takes out that category then.

I thought the floor might have been heavier, but not that much so! Either way due to the pitching issues I wouldn't use a Hubba Hubba without the footprint anyway, with the Nallo having a 70 denier floor I might not use a footprint (which evens out the weight and cost if you do so).

The fly felt and looked almost the same, except the MSR felt "silkier". We even speculated the same fabric with different coatings. Turns out it is 10 denier higher. Doesn't say if it's Nylon 6 or 66 however.