Advice needed on cold weather gearplease.

[Moondog55]

While I have most of what I think I need; I HAVE NO EXPERIENCE IN VERY LOW TEMPERATURES.
Headed for the USA in December and staying until the end of January.
I am aware that there is a huge difference between minus 12C and minus 25C and lower
Upper New York state, the finger lakes district and temperatures around minus 25 to 30C.

Any body here have first-hand experience in this area?

[wayno]

the american packpacking site put out various gear lists
here is there winter hiking checklist.

http://www.backpacker.com/snow_winter_g ... gear/12105

the site also returns some results for finger lakes

http://www.backpacker.com/search/?q=fin ... es&x=0&y=0

[Moondog55]

Thanks.
I am actually seriously considering changing my normal way of dressing. I posted a while ago about reading Andy Kirkpatrick and the use of a belay parka over the top of the storm parka when you stop. if this is the case I will pack the old ski parka I just modified with a attached full hood and think more seriously of buying a Patagonia DAS parka over in the states.
The rest of it is mainly the same as packing for Bogong in winter ( a mountain I regard highly) but with slightly more warmth

[Moondog55]

I really miss my WE sallopettes, at the moment I have a pair of MD pro-lite bib pants

http://www.mountaindesigns.com/online-s ... odID=11856

but they are designed for resort snowboarding and Telemark skiing, NOT mountain touring and while they have some good and a couple of great features I wouldn't want to live in them for a month.
I'll probably wind up taking an pull-on pair of Lowe overpants or my old Dutch Army goretex pants.

[andrewa]

Moondog, I'm not sure about your comparison of Bogong in winter and the US...at minus 480F, or whatever.

I'm thinking a different sort of cold to what we've ever endured on Bogong, the worst for me being either the blizzardy night at -2 to -5ish when things are wet, or the cold clear night at -12, when things are dry. Never been to the US in winter, so have no idea what goes over there.............a bit like you actually!!

Having read many of your posts of late, I'm not exactly sure what you are doing over there. Sounds like you are doing some tele skiing, and some snow camping, in that you are making an overbag, but beyond that, no concept. My brother in law skis in Utah each Feb (resort tele skiing -----poor old fart--------once he hit 50, he just struggled on those long step plugging walks out of the gullies on Bogong!), and has also spent many nights out with me on Bogong or the Main Range in winter, and he may have some useful advice, dependent on what you are doing

Please explain!

AA

[wayno]

a couple of canadians were in nz and commented nz was the coldest place they had ever been, despite the fact it's technically a lot warmer.
their comment might be because of the higher humidity that increases the conduction of cold compared to very cold conditions where the air is a lot drier. possibly its windier in nz as well in general.

mountain designs have their sale on now, they do some good cold weather parkas designed to withstand high altitude conditions
i did read a review that said the das was ok while yhou were on the move otherwise wasnt warm enough for really cold weather
have a look at a comparative website below so you can see reviews for down jackets and see the top rated ones and read the comments
http://www.gearbuyer.com/sc/mens_clothi ... l?rating=5

[andrewbish]

Hi Moondog

This article may be helpful: http://www.backpacking.net/winter.html

What sort of things will you be doing?

Andrew

[andrewbish]

Moondog

Will you be in the New England area? Check out Dave Mann's site for Winter trip advice: http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/Dirtbag ... rtbag.html

[Moondog55]

When I was working at Falls Creek and Mt Buller I have heard ski instructors form Canada and the US tell be that Australia is colder to work in than home; it is the humidity.
I will be doing some resort Telemarking, and some overnite camping , if I get the chance I'll do a summit of one of the minor peaks.
I have been reading a lot about conditions and most of the problem will probably be acclimatisation; going from 25C to minus25C in only 3 days.
It seems tho that most people over there ere on the side of extreme caution when packing for a day trip, I can see that a bivvy in -35 would be a greater challenge than at -5 and I am more pre-planning to pack for worst case scenarios.

[Franco]

My walking mate goes over to Alaska and or Minnesota for a few weeks in winter (Jan or Feb. -10 to -50c). Just walking about but did some dog sledding as well.
Things that work well for him:
an eVent bivvy (Bugaboo)
synthetic sleeping bag ( a -40 TNF)
the MSR XGK stove
an ETA 1.7L pot with the MSR windscreen (aluminium foil...)
Salomon Beluha shoes (with Neos Explorer at the lower temps)
Wearing as little as possible when moving (covering up as soon as you stop...) IE you try not to sweat.
Eating loads of fatty foods (bacon,cheese, pemmican ,chocolate ) soups and hot drinks (cider powder,chocolate) in abundance
(you need to cut meat in bite size bits )
Exped DM 7 (also has the RidgeRest)
wool mix first layer (merino and silk or nylon, some European brand but MacPac has something similar)
An insulated 1 L flask with a hot drink inside the jacket pocket.
(keeping some water in a Nalgene canteen against your back in the pack may work (keeping it somewhat liquid) down to -20/30c.)
It is important to start melting snow with some water.
That is it from the top of my head.
VB socks at camp and inside the bag
Franco

[Moondog55]

Thanx Franco.
Looks like I will be taking my heavier down parka as well as the cheap ski parka then and take the elephants foot also.
Finances won't allow a new mattress so I better but 2 foam pads as soon as I get there to put under the Thermarest, I hope I can get the overbag made in time.
I think I should take the Arctic wind-suit as well then or at least the pants as these can be pulled on while wearing boots.
Has any-one seen good woollen fingerless mitts lately?? My old Norsewear ones are getting on ( I have had them for almost 30 years after all ) and I'd like a new pair for the trip, liners I'll get at Rays, they have good ones cheap at the moment

[Azza]

I've experienced -15c and probably down to -25c at night. Skiing in various places like Japan, Colorado, etc..

I've felt much colder in Tassie, the big difference is the humidity.
Often temperatures hover around 0, you get wet and you get cold - it becomes a vicious cycle.

When you get down to -10 or so, the air is much dryer then its just wind chill factor.
The thing I noticed was that you can feel the cold penetrating your bones.
I found the difference between -10 and -25 not that noticeable - its just damn cold.. I'm sure you need to be more careful though.

The nasty thing is wind chill.... exposed skin freezes pretty quickly.

I just wear a softshell, under my shell layer and extra thermals. I have not found I've needed to wear a downie during the day.
I wear a pair of the MD Alppettes and a MD's Nimbus. With Scarpa Vega Plastic Boots - Its my mountaineering setup.
A good shell layer, then add more insulation underneath as required.

Gear wise - If you've got time, its much cheaper to buy it in the US than here. Then you can probably get some good local advice.

Good Luck.

[Moondog55]

One thing is; I get to try out my vapour barrier shirt in the conditions for which it was made.
Next thing I need to do is pull out all of my gear and try it on, no point in taking anything ( except the duvet of course ) if I can't layer it, the I decide which stuff to take.
At the moment it does look as if I will have all the big stuff I need and the little cheap stuff I will buy over there; if it can't be borrowed. opinion looks to be divided on the best vest to use; mine are all pile or fleece but a lot of the US opinions say the new lightweight shelled vests are warmer for a given weight and layer better.

Probably be taking my army Goretex, technically it is the best one I own and best made and it has pit-zips

[andrewa]

Pile/fleece and down obviously don't compare in terms of weight. It sort of comes down to how much you wish to exert yourself in them, and what the relative risk is of the insulation getting damp/wet. Tele skiing in vv cold conditions, you prob won't sweat that much, and a light down jkt/vest, under outer layer should be fine. Warmer conditions, you might sweat, and a fleece/pile jkt might be better. I suppose it also comes down to planning for exertion. Wear too much, and you'll sweat, and dampen the outer layers. By the time the vapour gets to your outer "breathable shell", it just won't have enough "oomph" to get through it to the outside. Wear just enough, and the sweat will only get to the outside of your polypros, and sit there, and you could have a silinylon shell, and be fine

It's all a challenge. I suppose take the stuff you'e happy with on a cold winter's night in Oz, and add as required.

A

[Moondog55]

Hi andrewa; sweating while exerting is my biggest concern, my big down jacket will stay in my pack unless I really need it.
I have just played around with all my layering and I have no doubt of my ability to stay warm when moving ( I normally walk and CC ski in longjohns and windproof unless it is a real storm ) it was for the resort stuff I was wondering about I guess and the idea that not taking off a windproof layer to put on another warm layer when stopping for a break.
None of my lightweight stuff will fit over my ECWCS goretex parka so I may have to get that Patagonia DAS parka if I decide that is how I should dress, in which case the down parka becomes sort of redundant, the alternative is to get a lighter weight windproof insulating layer like a Patagonia Nanopuff jumper or hoodie which can be used as an outer layer if the weather isn't too extreme.
The cheapskate solution would be to take an extra wool jumper or two and I may just do that and visit the US equivalent of the Salvation Army Op-Shops and see what I can get. Down vest or Nanopuff jumper looks to be a very good option for layering under my ski jumper.

[Moondog55]

My mittens have Id10t loops fitted, should I add them to my heavy ski gloves as well? just in case?
Thanx all for letting me think out loud and for all the help. the Q&A process has been of great benefit as have been the links provided.

[Moondog55]

Is this too much gear, it only just squeezes into the 40 litre pack

Winter packing list USA

Base Layer
• Silk-weight long john top
• Medium –weight long john top short zip or
• Expedition-weight long john top short zip
• Medium-weight long john bottoms
• Puma microfiber track pants. Nikwax treated
Footwear
• La Sportive Makalu
• Berghaus Yeti Supergaiter
• Thorlo tall liner socks
• Holeproof explorer
Outerwear
• Puma mesh lined microfiber track top. Nikwax treated
• ECWCS Goretex jacket
• waterproof/breathable pants
Accessories and Extras
• wool beanie
• balaclava
• Damart Finnish cowl
• midweight wool or fleece gloves
• synthetic liner gloves
• waterproof overmitts Outdoor Research trigger finger mitts
• sun hat
• bandanna or shemaq
• sunglasses
• goggles
Insulation
In rucksack
• Down parka
• Lightweight down pants or US Army Arctic over-pants
• insulated camp booties
• Spare dry socks


Gear
• WE Tour-jour backpack
• Compass and map of area
• Toggle rope
• Headlamp w/extra batteries and bulb
• Snacks and lunch
• 1 litre water bottle with insulation
• Chouinard Megamid with snow pegs
• Snowshoes or skis & poles
• Strap-on crampons
• first-aid kit with personal medications
• lighter and waterproof matches and emergency firelighter
• sunscreen (SPF 15+)
• lip balm (SPF 15+)
• pocket knife or multitool
Emergency gear
• closed-cell foam sleeping pad
• bivvysac
• down sleeping bag or half sac or single layer over-bag(-30° to 0°F)
• inflatable sleeping pad
• Emergency rations

Overnite gear
• MSR X-GK stove and fuel bottles
• cook set
• eating utensils, bowl, and mug
• FOOD
• toilet paper and trowel
• pee bottle

[Moondog55]

Well it has been an educational couple of days.
I just assembled everything and spent an hour trying to cram everything for a day trip in minus 25C into the Tour-Jour and it won't fit.
Bigger rucksac needed.
looks like the "Breakout" is going to get a "Workout"
I already have my shopping list ready and some money will be spent fairly quickly, especially on things like LED headlamps

[wayno]

backpacking mag have just published several articles on camping in extreme cold

http://www.backpacker.com/survival_wint ... wsletter03

[Moondog55]

So here I am almost all packed and dressed up for the Arctic temperatures expected and they are having their warmest December in almost 100 years and so far no snow, and it is still way above freezing.

If the temperature in the Eastern USA isn't well below freezing before we leave I am going to leave my ski gear behind

[north-north-west]

If you do that it will start snowing the minute you reach Tullamarine.

[andrewbish]

Have a great trip, Moondog!

[Moondog55]

Thanx Andrew
pictures will be taken, I just hope I get a chance to do more than one of the 46 high peaks.
Gear list has been amended again to eliminate some items and replace with warmer but lighter articles.

[Moondog55]

This is the modified list; I just put the pack on the scales and it comes to just over 19 kilos, but that is including everything from the skin out and is including the crampons and walking axe ( Chouinard 75cm ) This is about twice what I would pack for a full day at Falls or Hotham and is for a minimum of about -30, I do not expect
it to get that cold but I have been advised to pack for the worst conditions not the expected conditions, I can always leave one layer in the car if the forecast is mild
Winter packing list East coast USA. Appalachian peaks
Base Layer
• Silk-weight long john top
• Medium –weight long john top short zip or
• Expedition-weight long john top short zip
• Medium-weight long john bottoms
Footwear
• La Sportive Makalu
• Berghaus Yeti Supergaiter
• Thorlo/Patagonia tall liner socks
• Holeproof explorer
Outerwear
• Puma mesh lined microfiber track top. Nikwax treated
• Puma microfiber track pants. Nikwax treated
• ECWCS Goretex jacket
• Mountain Designs Allopettes
Accessories and Extras
• Norsewear wool beanie
• Damart Finnish cowl
• midweight fleece gloves
• synthetic liner gloves
• waterproof overmitts Outdoor Research trigger finger mitts
• sun hat
• bandanna or shemaq
• sunglasses
• goggles
Insulation
Worn / Carried
• Polarted100 bush shirt??
• Pile, Down or Thinsulate vest
Spare in rucksack
• Patagonia K2 balaclava
• Down parka
• Lightweight down pants or US Army Arctic over-pants
• insulated camp booties
• Spare dry socks


Gear
• WE Breakout 70 litre backpack
• Compass and map of area
• Toggle rope
• Headlamp w/extra batteries and bulb
• Snacks and lunch
• Army water bottle, kidney cup and windshield /heater/hexamine tablets
• Brew-up kit
• 1 litre water bottle with insulation
• Chouinard Megamid with snow pegs
• Snowshoes or skis & poles ??
• Strap-on crampons ???
• first-aid kit with personal medications
• lighter and waterproof matches and emergency firelighter
• sunscreen (SPF 15+)
• lip balm (SPF 15+)
• pocket knife or multitool
•

Emergency gear
• closed-cell foam sit pad
• bivvysac
• half sac or single layer over-bag(-10F to 0°F)
• Emergency rations
 

Overnite gear
• MSR X-GK stove and fuel bottles
• Full length CCF sleeping pad
• Down sleeping bag
• Thermarest ¾ mattress
• cook set
• eating utensils, bowl, and mug
• FOOD
• stuff sacks
• assorted zipper-lock bags
• toilet paper & pee bottle