Bushwalk Australia

I've been tossing up for some time over whether to go the kayak route or get a packraft. As much as I love the idea of the packraft, I can't see that I'd get enough use out of it to justify the expenditure. Nor can I see myself adding that much weight to the pack ('cause it's not just the raft; there's the paddle, helmet, wetsuit . . . ) So, kayak it is.

Now I just need some advice on which one to get and how best to fit it out. I need something that can cope with a bit of coastal work, and a bit of white water, but not really full-on stuff. Something that could carry dive gear & walking gear. Something with a dry storage compartment.
Then I have to think about skirt and paddle. PDF or just rely on the wetsuit? etc etc etc

Was once into seak kayaking had a few different variations, also built and sold them, did some nice long paddles.. a real adventure!!. I do still have a sit on top tourer and this is the way i'd go for short coastal esturine paddles and fishing/diving type stuff (u can even get them with tank holder).

Another couple of quick thoughts: 1. there are folding kayaks but theyre relatively heavy 2. My (small) packraft, bits, helmut n paddle weigh abt 2.8kg all up (neoair stuffed under raincoat, wrapped around torso)..

2.8 kg is 2.8 kg more than I really want to add to my pack, much as I love the idea of just paddling down the new river Lagoon rather than having to wade it.

And definitely not a sit-on tourer, which I assume is something like a fancy paddle-ski. I want something to sit in, and I want to be able to keep the bit I'm sitting on relatively dry. I hate sitting in the wet.

I have been looking for an Inflateable Kayack and the best weight I could find was something like 6 kgs and that did not include the pump paddles and anything else


Still looking, I want to paddle a bit on the Gorges river, need a kayack that can zoom though still water.

Cheers.

north-north-west wrote:2.8 kg is 2.8 kg more than I really want to add to my pack, much as I love the idea of just paddling down the new river Lagoon rather than having to wade it.

Thats one of the best parts of the walk!! The views of PB from the water are stunning!! You just need a nice warm day, thats the key.

ILUVSWTAS wrote:

north-north-west wrote:2.8 kg is 2.8 kg more than I really want to add to my pack, much as I love the idea of just paddling down the new river Lagoon rather than having to wade it.

Thats one of the best parts of the walk!! The views of PB from the water are stunning!! You just need a nice warm day, thats the key.

I know you won't respect me after hearing this, but I really HATE walking in wet boots. Or wet shoes. I suppose I could dig the dive booties out of storage, if I still have a pair with reasonably solid soles . . .

But that doesn't help with the kayak. Is yours up to sea touring, Mark?

north-north-west wrote:

ILUVSWTAS wrote:

north-north-west wrote:2.8 kg is 2.8 kg more than I really want to add to my pack, much as I love the idea of just paddling down the new river Lagoon rather than having to wade it.

Thats one of the best parts of the walk!! The views of PB from the water are stunning!! You just need a nice warm day, thats the key.

I know you won't respect me after hearing this, but I really HATE walking in wet boots. Or wet shoes. I suppose I could dig the dive booties out of storage, if I still have a pair with reasonably solid soles . . .

But that doesn't help with the kayak. Is yours up to sea touring, Mark?

Not on the open ocean no. Well it would be in the right hands.. but with me driving, no.

north-north-west wrote:2.8 kg is 2.8 kg more than I really want to add to my pack, much as I love the idea of just paddling down the new river Lagoon rather than having to wade it.

And definitely not a sit-on tourer, which I assume is something like a fancy paddle-ski. I want something to sit in, and I want to be able to keep the bit I'm sitting on relatively dry. I hate sitting in the wet.

Yer right, they are self draining but you'll likely get wet. Some serious looking models these days though.
I don't like spray skirts, been swamped a few times when i shouldn't have been but only used them when necessary..

Whatever..... plastic will be cheaper (and a bit heavier)..prob a bit more robust, a traditional touring kayak with a single rear hatch and some form of deck lashing or attachments sounds appropriate.
A rudder isn't necessary but is very nice in wind
So many companies build them these days..

Good Luck

ILUVSWTAS wrote:

north-north-west wrote:2.8 kg is 2.8 kg more than I really want to add to my pack, much as I love the idea of just paddling down the new river Lagoon rather than having to wade it.

Thats one of the best parts of the walk!! The views of PB from the water are stunning!! You just need a nice warm day, thats the key.

Well that rules out 346 days of the year!!! Still you go numb pretty quickly I'm sure....dive booties would be a good compromise.

Yeh true.... Still it is a lagoon, so the waters generally warmer than you expect.

The NRMA is selling this Kayak on thier website, It must be good RIGHT !!!!!


http://www.mynrma.com.au/shop/p-219-sev ... kayak.aspx


It's only 16 kg and as long as your using the river to trek I guess it's OK, not to carry though, might wait a while till I see some new reviews. The Nrma website has a review of it, not sure if it's from them and if to trust it even.

Cheers.

My first kayaks were a couple of white water ones (a Perception Dancer, and another similar boat). I had never paddled before, and it took a while for me to work out how to paddle them in a straight line. They were quite tippy, and I had a nasty experience trying to get out of one, and getting my legs stuck. I sold them on flea-bay 5yrs later at a 20% profit!

I also bought a 5.5m fiberglass sea-kayak, which I still own, and love , for coastal paddling. It was a fairly big investment though, even on flea-bay (~$1200). Limited use though.

I also own 2 packrafts. They are great - actually better than great. Packrafts don't track that well, but, like ww kayaks, you get used to them. They are a lot slower to paddle than a ww kayak, which is a lot slower than a sea-kayak, and very affected by wind. However, I find that I now plan a lot of my trips around having a packraft, as they are so much fun.

I also try to find multi-use gear. Rather than paddling with a wetsuit, I now have some NRS hydroskin pants, which double as wet "waders" for fly-fishing in NZ (we fish upstream, and raft back downstream), and could be used for insulation in the cold if desperate, as could the 1mm neoprene top I have. You can sleep very comfortably on an upturned packraft, as well as use it inflated as a seat around camp. Whilst Nuts mentions using a neo-air inside a raincoat as a PFD, I made a more comfortable lightweight pfd using 10l wine bladders x 2 inside a lightweight nylon shell. These wine bladders can also be used for water storage, and also make very comfy pillows. As to the paddle, not only is it a very strong tent/tarp pole, but the central 2 sections of a 4 piece paddle can be used as a walking stick, if you put rubber chair stoppers on the ends, and , if you put a screw fitting through one of these stoppers, it also makes a great monopod. So your packrafting kit is miles more useful than just for rafting!

Andrew A

andrewa wrote: using a neo-air inside a raincoat as a PFD, I made a more comfortable lightweight pfd using 10l wine bladders x 2 inside a lightweight nylon shell. These wine bladders can also be used for water storage, and also make very comfy pillows. As to the paddle, not only is it a very strong tent/tarp pole, but the central 2 sections of a 4 piece paddle can be used as a walking stick, if you put rubber chair stoppers on the ends, and , if you put a screw fitting through one of these stoppers, it also makes a great monopod. So your packrafting kit is miles more useful than just for rafting!

Andrew A

well... thats the theory, only tried it once and it seemed ok. I too am open to ideas for rafting though, mines barely been christened.. (felt much like a tire tube tbh... ) the weather will warm sometime though

Wine bladders sound like a good idea.

i'm not sure abt the walking stick chair stopper thing, imagine they would wear through pretty quick no?

I wouldn't bother with a helmet other than on whitewater (myself, personally etc) NNW

Yer, and I'm not likely to be doing anything more demanding than those cute little rapids up on the Katherine. I find the hire kayaks they have at Nitmiluk very easy to handle, but I'm thinking they wouldn't be the best for open water. I need to find a compromise craft that will handle a bit of this and a bit of that, and is suitable for a relative novice but also for somewhat more advanced work. I have found a couple of very nice looking craft online, but they're hideously expensive.

I just picked up my 15kg inflatable raft yesterday, and have nearly finished making my paddle (well, helped somebody else making my paddle). I was going to get a pack raft, but apart from the high price, I'm not confident in white water (actually, white water scares the willies out of me), so I feel much safer about using a traditional huge rubber dinghy.

I still hope to get a pack raft for bushwalking in the highlands eventually. Maybe when I'm rich and famous.

I got myself a sea kayak a couple of years ago and love it. It really opens up new places for exploring and its brilliant just being out on the water. I've paddled up and down the coast, on all the main rivers where I live, some of the dams and after the floods had settled down a bit some time last year I did a 15k paddle down a river which had some level 1 & 2 white water. It was heaps of fun! even if I did manage to scratch the S%*^ out of the bottom of it It would have been good for a packraft too but I can't afford to have both and it wouldn't get near as much use which is why I went the sea kayak instead. Plus it swallows my backpacking kit with ease (plus room for a few luxuries cask of red wine, small pillow, decent tarp etc ) which is good because theres plenty of great places for paddle in camping. I spent a few days in splendid isolation in October down the coast on a narrow spit beween the ocean and the river, It was so good next up is a week long cruise of hinchinbrook island and one day (one day) bass strait.



I have one of these.Yes, It was pretty expensive but I'm sure you could find something really decent second hand. The main thing is to get one that is a good fit! If they are too loose or two tight then the comfort and ease of use diminishes. There is also a fair bit of gear to acquire as you go but if you are on fairly calm water to start with I think a paddle is all you need.

north-north-west wrote:Then I have to think about skirt and paddle. PDF or just rely on the wetsuit? etc etc etc

A wetsuit may have some flotation but they are not designed to keep you alive, a PFD is designed to keep your head out of the water, even if unconscious or exhausted. A skirt will stop most water entering the cockpit keeping you drier and warmer but they can get hot in warm climates ( i think theres a few options for that though). You will need a skirt if you want to roll and learning how to roll is a major safety consideration of going into rough water, I would recommend it.

Since buying it I've been to a few kayak demo days and tried a whole range of different models and styles. Like packs (and anything I guess) there is no one kayak that will do it all so you need to compromise and find one that suits you. For example I tried one of these and it made mine feel like a barge, it was fast as anything and really maneuvrable but had minmal storage so it would be a lot of fun but less practical for eg touring etc

north-north-west wrote:And definitely not a sit-on tourer, which I assume is something like a fancy paddle-ski. I want something to sit in, and I want to be able to keep the bit I'm sitting on relatively dry. I hate sitting in the wet.

The skirt keeps me pretty dry but if you head into the ocean you will need to wear a PFD, get a decent pump and most important learn how to roll. I'm learning at the moment after one particularly disconcerting paddle not too long ago, by myself, in rough surf where I wiped out, out the back a couple of hundred metres from an isloated beach. It was impossible to get back into the kayak and I ended up dragging the kayak/being washed ashore and I was drained physically and mentally at the end of it. If I could roll I would have just popped back up and kept going and not had a miserable time. On the bright side I now have plenty of motivation to get my roll bombproof

north-north-west wrote:Something that could carry dive gear & walking gear. Something with a dry storage compartment.

I think most if not all 'sea kayaks' have water resistant hatches. You might need to look around and find one that will fit a dive cylinder in it though, I'm sure mine would but I've seen some that have small openings that wouldn't.

Son of a Beach wrote:I still hope to get a pack raft for bushwalking in the highlands eventually. Maybe when I'm rich and famous.

me too. I AM hoping that I've been a good enough boy for santa to bring me one this year. doesn't look good though.

phan_TOM wrote:

Son of a Beach wrote:I still hope to get a pack raft for bushwalking in the highlands eventually. Maybe when I'm rich and famous.

me too. I AM hoping that I've been a good enough boy for santa to bring me one this year. doesn't look good though.

I wonder if the global financial crisis, and European meltdown, has affected things at the north pole?

Maybe with global warming the old fella will be too busy to head south this year, what with all the palm tree seedlings that need planting and the stocking up wth good tropical strength rum

The new Alpacka packrafts are very kayak like. My Denali Lama is 30% faster than my old packraft and the removable spray deck affords options for both flat and WW paddling. Having owned a range of kayaks, canoes, sea-skis and packrafts I can say the new Alpackas are the most versatile adventure craft I have ever owned by a long way.

I have a sample of the type of trips I do with mine here on my blog,
http://x-streamfishing.blogspot.com/p/videos.html

Not sure I understand the logic of getting a kayak because a packraft is too heavy?? Now is a great time to buy one as the dollar is good and Alpacka are having a 10% off sale until the 15th Dec.

Steve

I couldnt think of anything worse than paddling a packraft on flat water. Ive got the 2011 shape raft and even on flat sections of a river it is tedius. Packrafts have a lot of hull drag so its difficult to get any momentum and once a slight head wind pickups you pretty much stop dead in the water and so you have to paddle pretty hard to get any where. Dont get me wrong, packrafts are great fun on rivers with rapids but once the river flattens it becomes hardwork.

I would rather go slow than not go...at the end of the day a kayak is of course faster on flat water but try carry a kayak into a remote estuary or river? Packrafts are for carrying in 'packs' to remote locations, they are a compromise and comparing them with a kayak is comparing apples with oranges, they are different tools for different jobs. I manage to average 5-6 kms/hr on flat water in the Denali (sometimes less, sometimes more), I use a custom 230 cm Carbon Splat which seems to make a big difference, I also find the spray deck streamlines then a bit.

SteveJ wrote:Not sure I understand the logic of getting a kayak because a packraft is too heavy??...

Yeah, a couple of kilos of packraft compared to about 20 for an unladen kayak (plus 10-20 kilos of gear if you are going on a few days trip). With the packraft it goes in your pack, with the kayak it is your pack . The thought of strapping my sea kayak to the top of my pack and going bushbashing conjures up some funny images... Honestly, they are two very different craft for two very different activities which I think the original poster was deciding which one would be more suitable for them. Its the same as me, I'd love a packraft but where I live is more suited to a sea kayak. I regularly do a 20k round trip from home along a flat river to the ocean and back, it would suck big time in a packraft plus I don't know how they would go in the surf or ocean chop??

frenchy_84 wrote:I couldnt think of anything worse than paddling a packraft on flat water

Yeah, looks painful

SteveJ wrote:I manage to average 5-6 kms/hr on flat water in the Denali

sounds fast! I average about 7km/h in my kayak... I wonder if you do any coastal paddling in it? How do they handle a bit of surf and/or chop?

SteveJ wrote:Not sure I understand the logic of getting a kayak because a packraft is too heavy??

Because I'm not going to be carrying the kayak anywhere except from the car to the nearest bit of water. I'm not going to be doing anything really wild, but I do want something that copes with light chop in coastal waters, low grade white water, and long flat sections. I can't afford both a sea kayak and a packraft, nor do I have storage room for them both. (Don't really have room for either, but I can swing something for one. Somehow.)
And, as I said earlier, as much as I love the idea of being able to blow the thing up and paddle across whatever bit of water I see on my walks, I can't face the extra weight and bulk it will add to my pack. My knees aren't getting any younger, you know.

phan_TOM:
Thanks for all the info. You've given me a lot to think about.
I hadn't thought about the sizing issue. Should have as I've been through Alpacka's website and they specify certain craft for certain height ranges. I do like the look of that beastie of yours (though it would look better in red).

Silly ol me thinking it was a bushwalking/equipment thread I have actually carried my sea ski (28kgs of it) plus all my gear out from a remote beach one time because it was to rough to paddle out..... never again.

NNW, sounds like you might be heading the sea-kayak route, even though the storage issue and weight is going to be miles worse than a packraft! Kayaks are hard to sneak into the house, whereas packrafts can be stored in shoe boxes (almost!), even amongst your beloved's shoes!

Maybe find a shop that allows you to try before you buy. As you no doubt realise, you can get smaller kayaks (~4-4.5m) with rudder, and good tracking ability, and reasonable storage space inside, but would probably be OK in a river with low grade rapids if needed, but not as manoeuvreable (?sp!!) as a dedicated white water kayak. Not something you'd carry into NR lagoon though! Please don't be tempted with the WW shape kayaks for what you want - you'll be disappointed. You'll find them on ebay at good prices, but they just aren't suitable.

This looks a reasonable option/style:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-WINNER-4 ... 3f10e20ace

This style would drive you nuts (a bit like the first kayak I bought) - short, little directional stability.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BRAND-NEW-KA ... 1e6937a0f8

As to these 2 links, I had a 2 second look at ebay to try to find the concept. I am not recommending either option, just giving you an idea.

As to paddling speed, I reckon I'd paddle my 5.5m sea-kayak (longer boats tend to go faster) at 10-12km/h in good conditions (+/- tide and wind). I haven't measured it, but I probably would be pushing 3-5km/h in my packraft on flat water.

Andrew A

PS - just a thought - if you are handy, you can make your own kayak from cedar strips and epoxy. There are heaps of patterns/kits out there.

A

Andrew, currently I lack a 'beloved' and even if there was one in The Hovell his shoes would not be permitted to interfere with any of my gear.

There's a mob in Glen Waverley who've just added Prijon kayaks to their range and they have some serious discounts on offer - Prilite 470 for $1600, which is about my limit on cost. A bit more than I want to spend, actually, but I could stretch that far. It looks like a nice beast.

Sounds like you still need to keep weight at the front of choices NNW, even getting 15kg off a rack to the water can be a chore with any back twisting or bending possibly causing injury. Work out a technique and rack setup well beforehand. A pulley setup in a garage is a good idea. Maybe roller racks (you have a hilux right..) will help? The $ are even steeper but as another option Klepper/Folbot/Feathercraft make serious folding sea tourers.

If making one was a possibility?? Many canoe clubs have moulds (mine are long gone) for touring kayaks. Fibreglass/Carbon Fibre/Kevlar are still the lightest option. Not nice to work with though and cedar strip/epoxy even worse (and time consuming) (beautiful boats though), I once built a cedar strip canoe , it was so much work its been an artpiece since day 1 ...

Oh, I'll be getting roller racks for it, for sure. Ross can help me set that up. I'm not daft enough to buy something unless I'm sure I can handle it out of the water as well as in.

ps that 470 looks like a nice boat, decent price. Will give up some turning ability (for speed and directional stability ) with that flat hull length profile (no 'rocker') a rudder option may be even more useful..
23kg..