Bushwalk Australia

The titanium version of the JetBoil Sol might have a problem. A potentially serious problem.

Please note that my concerns pertain to the titanium version of the JetBoil Sol only.

Titanium JetBoil Sol – CAUTION



Please note that not all the facts are in and that this is a CAUTION only at this juncture. The potential consequences of a failure are serious enough that I think a “caution” is warranted even though all the facts are not in.

HJ

Does this even comply with forum rules? Hello defamation?

Thanks for posting this HJ,

I have been following the JetBoil Sol melting fins debate on BPL, it is all very interesting.

The Australian Importer of JetBoil, Sea 2 Summit have been advertising the Sol stove in a local bushwalking magazine for a while now but they have not yet hit the shops, I have been told by several of the local shops sales persons that the Sol is held up with getting approval from our local gas appliance regulator, this also happened with the JetBoil PCS and GCS systems which came out in Australia over a year after it did in the US.

Tony

Strider wrote:Does this even comply with forum rules? Hello defamation?

Why on earth would it not??

While the canisters (we use) state 50c max i imagine the bursting point (of a steel canister) would be much higher. There was some canister testing done here (for their potential in a bushfire situation) that led to storage restriction (in parks) but I imagine it would be pretty extreme to reach an explosive state. That one looks like it burned on a long time, wouldn't the flame be extinguished? Apparently they burst/ become projectiles rather than ''explode'..?? Too many questions, i guess that's why the laws are in place..

I (and ,therefore, probably others) noted this here some time back after reading on a European blog (and BPL). Iv'e also wondered (questioned/mentioned) the wisdom of saving money by buying stoves from O/S, especially for anyone who values their insurance (as well as their life). Obviously safety requirements are less in some countries.

Good to see it come up again Jim (iirc there wasnt much interest among those buying them when it was last 'discussed'...).

ILUVSWTAS wrote:

Strider wrote:Does this even comply with forum rules? Hello defamation?

Why on earth would it not??

Public naming and shaming of a business leaves the forum owners open to litigation.

So how exactly does this happen? Leaving it running with no liquid in it?

Interesting stuff, and as I have a Sol Ti, will follow with interest but I'm having difficulty getting very worried about it.

To be fair, previous claims of failure I remember seeing here or on the net for jetboils have involved running them dry or attempting rapid melting of snow. This does seem different, even with the owner in the youtube on Jim's site mentioning that his failure happened at 10 degrees (presumably F) therefore -12C

Have to wonder what these people are doing with their Sols! Mine never runs for much more than a minute at a time. Would there not be a lot of sparks and smoke if we managed to get the heat exchanger up to the 600C+ required to melt it Jim?

I can only suggest that all stoves are potentially dangerous and should not be left unattended.

photohiker wrote:if we managed to get the heat exchanger up to the 600C+ required to melt it Jim?

Titanium has a high melting point of 3135°F (1725°C) ... serious boiling dry

I have a jetboil SOL TI and I've managed to melt the fins on the bottom.
The downside of light weight gear..
Its actually quite easy to do when your not paying attention. Would I say its dangerous - not that I've seen yet. Just annoying as I've ruined the pot.
Basically you should only turn the gas up high when your boiling liquid and a decent amount of liquid. Keep it down low for snow or anything not entirely liquid.
If the pot can't transfer the heat quick enough into the liquid then the fins overheat and flake off like foil. The fin's are quite thin and fragile and it looks like the spot welding isn't that solid either.

To achieve the damage shown in the pictures it must of been flogged with the thing up full bore and left it alone for a period of time.
I blew mine out and didn't notice for a few days. I got impatient heating up dinner one night.

These days I don't run the thing flat out without paying close attention.

Apparently (iirc and without a search) it can also happen from concentrated heat buildup due to poor connection of the fins to the pot (in manufacture).

Strider wrote:

ILUVSWTAS wrote:

Strider wrote:Does this even comply with forum rules? Hello defamation?

Why on earth would it not??

Public naming and shaming of a business leaves the forum owners open to litigation.

It is now clear that the courts will measure the reputation of a person in a particular business or profession against the same community standards that apply to everyone else. The general test for what is defamatory applies to the reputation of businesspeople and professionals: is the published matter likely to lead an ordinary reasonable person to think less of the person? There is no separate tort of business defamation. A claim for damage to the reputation of a business, such as an attack on its products or services, can be framed in injurious falsehood or on other grounds but not in defamation.

More in the posting ... defamation in this instance? I suspect hardly likely.

Source:Clayton Utz

Andrew

sthughes wrote:So how exactly does this happen? Leaving it running with no liquid in it?

I have added links to my blog post to the original post on BPL as well as to another blog that had a similar but lesser problem.

This issue is one where I would advise a careful reading of the original posts. To my mind there is no indication of something obvious (like running the pot dry). If someone had run the pot dry, I would haven't found melting to be at all remarkable and certainly wouldn't issue a "caution."

HJ

Strider wrote:

ILUVSWTAS wrote:

Strider wrote:Does this even comply with forum rules? Hello defamation?

Why on earth would it not??

Public naming and shaming of a business leaves the forum owners open to litigation.

Typically cases of libel or slander can be defended if the allegations can be shown to be true. Showing that the allegations are true is the classic defense in such cases.

However, I merely posted a photograph showing the reality of the situation. I submit to you that displaying a photograph of actual events is not defemation. I did state an opinion along with the photograph, an opinion which advises caution. I have made no allegations of illegal acts on the part of JetBoil. My opinion, to which I believe I have a right to, is fairly clear and in large characters, but in case it was overlooked, I will copy it here:

If it were me and I were considering purchasing the titanium version of the JetBoil stove, I would hold off until more is known. If I owned a titanium version of the JetBoil stove, I would put it on a shelf and use some other stove until this issue is clarified.

I fail to see how that meets the test of "defamation."

Or would it be better to keep silent on a potentially serious issue out of fears of defaming someone? If JetBoil is a reputable company, they will act in a reputable way and address the issue rather than finding fault with the practices of the individual user.

There may be some kind of a problem with the welds that join the heat exchanger to the pot that can cause various failures, failures which so far have not been catastrophic but do have that potential.

HJ

hikin_jim wrote:

sthughes wrote:So how exactly does this happen? Leaving it running with no liquid in it?

I have added links to my blog post to the original post on BPL as well as to another blog that had a similar but lesser problem.

This issue is one where I would advise a careful reading of the original posts. To my mind there is no indication of something obvious (like running the pot dry). If someone had run the pot dry, I would haven't found melting to be at all remarkable and certainly wouldn't issue a "caution."

HJ

Oh I see, you're just trying to score hits on you blog.

photohiker wrote:I can only suggest that all stoves are potentially dangerous and should not be left unattended.

Well said, and I've had two problems caused by just that very thing. One I primed a Shellite stove with alcohol, walked away to get water, and came back to 60cm high flames. On another, I left a gas stove on, walked over to talk to someone, and then the wind blew a plastic bag against the stove, nearly sparking a fire.

In the cases that I've read where there were problems with a JetBoil Sol Ti, it doesn't appear that boiling dry is the issue. It looks more like a problem with the welds, but that's speculation.

If you look at the video I link to in my blog post, you'll see that the heat exchanger fell off. It didn't appear to melt, and it was clearly in cold weather.

At the bottom of my blog post, I include a link to another blog. The writer of the blog states that he only boils water and only runs on a moderate flame. Yet his heat exchanger melted.

HJ

Nuts wrote:Apparently (iirc and without a search) it can also happen from concentrated heat buildup due to poor connection of the fins to the pot (in manufacture).

That's my guess, but I am just guessing.

HJ

sthughes wrote:Oh I see, you're just trying to score hits on you blog.

Oh, please. Good grief. (or was that some form of Australian humor that I'm not familiar with?)

I put everything in the blog so I don't have to repeat it ad infinitum (I typically post on several forums), but if it's too danged much to ask that you go to my blog to understand what I'm saying, then here are direct links:
The original post -- worth reading responses, at least one of which reports a similar happening.
A similar report on a blog.

On the original post, in all fairness, the person did walk away from their pot if I'm understanding things. I suppose there could have been a boil over, a boil over could have caused the stove to flare, the flare could then have melted the heat exchanger. It's not clear that it was a boil over

However, there are quite a number of reports of melted fins that do not appear to be the result of a boil over, including one here in this thread.

HJ

Strider wrote:

ILUVSWTAS wrote:

Strider wrote:Does this even comply with forum rules? Hello defamation?

Why on earth would it not??

Public naming and shaming of a business leaves the forum owners open to litigation.

Good grief!! This country is sadly becoming more and more like yankyland everyday!!

ILUVSWTAS wrote:Good grief!! This country is sadly becoming more and more like yankyland everyday!!

Hikin' Jim's slightly inflammatory (inflammable?) post here is nothing compared to what was written on one of those links above: "dangerous bomb", "lawyers", "urgent product recall", "someone WILL be injured". LOL! I don't know if this Jetboil is really that dangerous or not but it certainly is more entertaining than most stoves, and I've seen more than one light up in an unexpectedly vigorous fashion. It makes me want to own a Jetboil Ti Sol.

In a more geek mode, does anybody know approximately what one of those aluminum fin configurations weighs? I'm curious how much heat, sensible and latent, might be contained in a fully melted set of fins versus the heat capacity of a steel cylinder partially filled with LPG. It might make for a good chemical engineering course midterm question!

Nuts wrote:Apparently (iirc and without a search) it can also happen from concentrated heat buildup due to poor connection of the fins to the pot (in manufacture).

This is my suspicion. I have found however only 5 posts (world wide) that discuss such a problem. Maybe my "caution" is overdone? It's certainly very serious if it does happen, but does it happen often enough to justify a caution?

HJ

Hi

First to the legal stuff. I am not a lawyer nor is this legal advice so might be wrong. Generally in Tasmania deflamation cases apply to individuals not corporations. More than a few pieces of gear are junk and I would hate to see any censorship of people's views due to a campaign of fear.

Secondly on the stove. I have one and had no issues as yet. It is mega quick at boiling water do so need to leave it unattended. Conflicting reports suggest that the fins are aluminum but I have no clear guidance one way or another on that point.

Frankly all gear has an implied condition that common sense is needed. It is only when gear fails in normal use that I spark up. All sit on top stoves have the potential to overheat the canister but you are likely doing something unusual for that to happen.

I will be watching this thread with interest to see if any owners on this site are having issues. I hope not but if they do then I hope they post honestly their experience and concerns.

Cheers

Azza wrote:I have a jetboil SOL TI and I've managed to melt the fins on the bottom.
The downside of light weight gear..
Its actually quite easy to do when your not paying attention. Would I say its dangerous - not that I've seen yet. Just annoying as I've ruined the pot.

Did you replace the pot or did you just continue on with whatever was left of the heat exhanger?

HJ

Based on feedback I've received, I've reworded the original post that started this thread. I've toned it down a bit. I will also reword my blog post.

This verbiage was in my original post. I think it's appropriate, and I left it unchanged:

Please note that not all the facts are in and that this is a CAUTION only at this juncture. The potential consequences of a failure are serious enough that I think a “caution” is warranted even though all the facts are not in.

HJ

prickle wrote:

photohiker wrote:if we managed to get the heat exchanger up to the 600C+ required to melt it Jim?

Titanium has a high melting point of 3135°F (1725°C) ... serious boiling dry

Yep

One correction though, the heat exchanger on the Ti is Aluminium, not Ti, which is why the 600C figure. Still blardy hot!

hikin_jim wrote:Based on feedback I've received, I've reworded the original post that started this thread. I've toned it down a bit. I will also reword my blog post.

This verbiage was in my original post. I think it's appropriate, and I left it unchanged:

Please note that not all the facts are in and that this is a CAUTION only at this juncture. The potential consequences of a failure are serious enough that I think a “caution” is warranted even though all the facts are not in.

HJ

Fair enough. I think the rewording of your blog message to JetBoil is also appropriate. Ultimately, there are some failures that are now public and hopefully these units will be sent back to Jetboil who will then be able to (also hopefully) find the issue and respond publicly (or have their response to the owners made public)

Meanwhile, if anyone is feeling paranoid about the Ti, Aluminium Sol cups are available for around $40 on ebay.

photohiker wrote: Ultimately, there are some failures that are now public and hopefully these units will be sent back to Jetboil who will then be able to (also hopefully) find the issue and respond publicly (or have their response to the owners made public).

That is my hope too. I honestly am not out to "get" the JetBoil Sol Ti. I'd much rather see the product on the market than not. However, I do want to know that the heat exchanger isn't going to separate and potentially cause a problem.

HJ

This happened to mine on second use...

Pretty sure it was my fault though, I was bringing rice to the boil so had high power, then forgot to stir it so it created a seal with burnt rice an the liquid could not get down to the bottom.

farkewie wrote:This happened to mine on second use...

Pretty sure it was my fault though, I was bringing rice to the boil so had high power, then forgot to stir it so it created a seal with burnt rice an the liquid could not get down to the bottom.

Did yours "just" melt or did you actually get a really big flame?

HJ

Ent wrote:Frankly all gear has an implied condition that common sense is needed. It is only when gear fails in normal use that I spark up. All sit on top stoves have the potential to overheat the canister but you are likely doing something unusual for that to happen.

I would think something so potentially dangerous needs a wider margin for error built in?