Bushwalk Australia

Hey, gas canisters are expensive. Why NOT just refill them with cheap gas from a bulk propane tank?


A "bulk" propane tank


Yeah, and on eBay you can get a cheap canister refiller that will do just that.

A very dangerous canister refill adapter


But refilling bushwalking type canisters with this particular canister refiller is just plain dangerous. Find out the whys and wherefores in my latest post:
Canister Refiller -- WARNING

HJ

Well thats probably why they tell you NOT to do it......??

Sounds like HJ is bored again...

ILUVSWTAS wrote:Well thats probably why they tell you NOT to do it......??

Yes, but this (100% propane) is particularly dangerous. Filling with 100% butane can be fairly safe provided that you don't exceed the maximum rated capacity of the canister.

HJ

hikin_jim wrote:

ILUVSWTAS wrote:Well thats probably why they tell you NOT to do it......??

Yes, but this (100% propane) is particularly dangerous. Filling with 100% butane can be fairly safe provided that you don't exceed the maximum rated capacity of the canister.

HJ

If you silly enough to do it.... MEH!!

Something to be said for natural selection.....

Strider wrote:Sounds like HJ is bored again...

lol. Sure.

My concern actually isn't too much the typical member on this forum, most of whom generally seem fairly hesitant to do any kind of refilling, but one never knows. This particular refiller is really dangerous, dangerous to the point that I thought it worth mentioning even though the possibility exists that no one here would buy one.

I actually have a more substantive post that I'm about to put up; I've completed my review of the Jetboil Sol.

HJ

ILUVSWTAS wrote:If you silly enough to do it.... MEH!!

Something to be said for natural selection.....

Oh, dear, I'm weakening the gene pool by issuing warnings, aren't I?

Attention: All persons with poor genetic material are hereby instructed to disregard the preceding safety warning. Meglo-maniacs and mass murders, please PM for details of how you can get a free copy of this wonderfully handy canister refiller. One free pack of matches (for leak testing) included.

HJ

hikin_jim wrote:

ILUVSWTAS wrote:If you silly enough to do it.... MEH!!

Something to be said for natural selection.....

Oh, dear, I'm weakening the gene pool by issuing warnings, aren't I?

Attention: All persons with poor genetic material are hereby instructed to disregard the preceding safety warning. Meglo-maniacs and mass murders, please PM for details of how you can get a free copy of this wonderfully handy canister refiller. One free pack of matches (for leak testing) included.

HJ

Nice volley.....

Hi HJ

Thanks for the heads up. While I not likely to do such a thing I have noticed a few posts where people have. It appears a few are refilling the 100 gram canisters from 450 gram ones. Like with most things if you know what you are doing and have the background information no problem and will save money. Bit like reloading ammunition, very safe in the hands of someone prepared to read up but downright dangerous in a mugs hands.

What we are seeing are a lots of laws coming out to protect the terminally stupid. Only a matter of time at the rate of legislation that people will not be allowed to work on their own cars unless a qualified mechanic. Also there might be safety protocols that people are not aware of so the authorities are adopting safety first.

Cheers

Ent wrote:Thanks for the heads up. While I not likely to do such a thing I have noticed a few posts where people have. It appears a few are refilling the 100 gram canisters from 450 gram ones. Like with most things if you know what you are doing and have the background information no problem and will save money.

I have less trouble with transferring gas from a 450g canister to a 100g canister. Both are bushwalking canisters, both will contain a blend of gasses (not 100% propane), and both will have similar pressure ratings. Taking 100% propane gas from a heavy-duty steel bulk tank and putting it into a lightweight bushwalking canister is some very bad business.

Ent wrote:Bit like reloading ammunition, very safe in the hands of someone prepared to read up but downright dangerous in a mugs hands.

Good analogy. One of the guys I used to work with, Claude, a very senior computer engineer, did his own reloading. The local shooting range had a policy of "no reloads," but the range-master never gave my co-worker any trouble at all. Everyone knew that if Claude did the work, it was every bit as good as a factory load.

HJ

How do you get 20/80 propane/isobutane (or 30/70 propane/n-butane) mixture without this sort of adapter?

If you just add normal butane you always have a diluted mixture. You can take a new canister and transfer fuel to an old one but if the old one isn't empty you'll end up with something less potent. Or you can take an empty canister and transfer fuel from a full canister but the only reason to do that is to save a tiny little bit of weight. The reason to have a mixture in the first place is because it works better in the cold. Most of the time cold conditions demand more fuel so this strategy is of limited use.

If I were in the mode of refilling canisters (I'm not) I'd want the capability that this adapter supposedly offers.

But a canister stupidly filled with pure propane is kind of scary, scarier than a canister stupidly overfilled with normal butane. You'd want to keep it at a pretty reasonable temperature, say around 20°C or less.

Orion wrote:How do you get 20/80 propane/isobutane (or 30/70 propane/n-butane) mixture without this sort of adapter?

MSR is 20/80 pro/iso. Coleman is 30/70 pro/n-b.

Orion wrote:If I were in the mode of refilling canisters (I'm not) I'd want the capability that this adapter supposedly offers.

But a canister stupidly filled with pure propane is kind of scary, scarier than a canister stupidly overfilled with normal butane. You'd want to keep it at a pretty reasonable temperature, say around 20°C or less.

If one were to follow the directions given on eBay with the adapter, one would wind up with a canister of 100% propane.

If one were to first fill with n-butane to around 70% of rated capacity by weight and then fill the remainder with propane, that wouldn't be too bad -- assuming that the adapter is any good which I'm not convinced that it is just by the look of it.

HJ

On a slightly different note. Does anyone know where or if you can get a workable adapter to convert a screw-in connector/valve on my Primus Omni to a 'clamp' style connector to use cheap canisters so I can use the $2 220gm butane canisters. I bought one off eBay ($5) but although everything seems to match seamlessly, it screws perfectly onto my Primus Omni stove valve and clamps perfectly onto my 220gm canister it just doesn't work.
(The brass 'pin'/needle inside the Primus valve just doesn't seem to extend ~1mm far enough to push-in the internal valve on the adapter to open the gas flow, ie ~1mm too short - that's my observation/guess)

Hi

Kovea make one that is sold with the larger gas lamps but while it works well in that role it has not been a success with gas stoves. I hardly use it but from memory when connected to a tall cylinder it release all the gas unless the lamp is attached. Also the small hole is not big enough for the pin on the Pimus gas connector to go through plus looks like a due cast thread.

Also the 80/20 or even 95/5 mixture in tall cylinders is no longer found at least in Tassie and 100% butane does not cut the mustard at night.

Cheers

Stew63 wrote:On a slightly different note. Does anyone know where or if you can get a workable adapter to convert a screw-in connector/valve on my Primus Omni to a 'clamp' style connector to use cheap canisters so I can use the $2 220gm butane canisters. I bought one off eBay ($5) but although everything seems to match seamlessly, it screws perfectly onto my Primus Omni stove valve and clamps perfectly onto my 220gm canister it just doesn't work.
(The brass 'pin'/needle inside the Primus valve just doesn't seem to extend ~1mm far enough to push-in the internal valve on the adapter to open the gas flow, ie ~1mm too short - that's my observation/guess)

Sounds like the adapter you have has an internal valve; the nicer ones do. Maybe you need a cheaper one? Seriously, the cheaper ones often don't have an internal valve and therefore the gas flows quite freely irrespective of the length of the pin. You do want to attach the stove first though!

HJ

I noticed that the current eBay seller of this item also has another item for sale titled:

"Mini H Quality Power Torch Camping Picnic Cookware Welding Flamethrower Burner"

It uses the same canister that the refiller is meant to fill with 100% propane.

This same seller also has medical kits listed for bidding.

Orion wrote:I noticed that the current eBay seller of this item also has another item for sale titled:
"Mini H Quality Power Torch Camping Picnic Cookware Welding Flamethrower Burner"

Oh? He sells flamethrowers too? I'm glad to see he only sells safe products.

HJ

I have both an adapter to run stove burners and a really nice device that I can transfer 220 gm butane into 230gm canisters,
used the Butane with my stove and Brunton Platinum mantle Lantern in reasonably warm conditions and it was very acceptable ,up at Oakleigh View on the weekend the Lantern did not burn as bright on Butane in colder conditions as it normally did on the expensive mix but still provided a good light .
Worth while checking out the Butane transfer gizmo 4 x220g cans at K Mart $4.75 1x 230g canister of mixed gas around $8.00
worth having a go in my opinion
corvus

Hi Corvus

You might like to add hypothetically as it is illegal to refill gas canisters.

Cheers

No Ent,
It is not illegal they just say on the expensive cans do not refill they also say do not puncture which I also do so that I can recycle the steel cans
corvus

Um? Like most laws hard to find but here is a start

"It must be noted that all pressure receptacles used in Australia are subject to legislation
relating to the use of pressure vessels." Comes from http://www.ntc.gov.au/filemedia/Publica ... _Guide.pdf

Note the use of the word "all".

It will likely be the typical convoluted process that a cylinder must be refilled as per X standard and as as then cylinder is not refillable then by default you are not meeting the standard and hence breaking the law. It will unlikely be simply spelled out that refilling disposable gas canister or cartridges is illegal. Also might find it relates to the sale of such items or illegal to transport non approved items, etc. Bit like it was illegal to have a radar detector fitted to a vehicle so some cunning truckie had it on his trailer so the road rules changed in 2009 to head that one off.

Hate things like this at work when you are asked to find the legislative basis for doing or not doing something. It starts with an act then heads to a standard and then back to another act, etc. In the real world nobody gives a hoot until an event. Bit like if you upgrade the power of a vehicle by I think ten percent it needs to be re certified by an appropriate engineer. So when your XR6 Turbo winds up on its roof the insurance company and police make a bee line for the computer chip and cancel your insurance and charge you. But keep it upright and nobody worries.

There is always the 11th commandment "Do not get caught".

Cheers

Maybe they should just make a legally refillable one and be done with it, or, maybe they like the money made in this throwaway society.


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corvus wrote:I have both an adapter to run stove burners and a really nice device that I can transfer 220 gm butane into 230gm canisters,
used the Butane with my stove and Brunton Platinum mantle Lantern in reasonably warm conditions and it was very acceptable ,up at Oakleigh View on the weekend the Lantern did not burn as bright on Butane in colder conditions as it normally did on the expensive mix but still provided a good light .
Worth while checking out the Butane transfer gizmo 4 x220g cans at K Mart $4.75 1x 230g canister of mixed gas around $8.00
worth having a go in my opinion
corvus

I've had really good results with refilling the threaded canisters (100g class or 200g class) from 100% butane "long" cans. Caveat: I only use 100% butane when the temperature is going to be above 10C. It's quite convenient to "top up" a 100g canister that only has 30g left in it -- a canister that would otherwise be next to useless.

HJ

hikin_jim wrote:I've had really good results with refilling the threaded canisters (100g class or 200g class) from 100% butane "long" cans. Caveat: I only use 100% butane when the temperature is going to be above 10C. It's quite convenient to "top up" a 100g canister that only has 30g left in it -- a canister that would otherwise be next to useless.

What do you do when the temperature is below 10°C? Do you add a fraction of propane as part of your refills?

Orion wrote:

hikin_jim wrote:I've had really good results with refilling the threaded canisters (100g class or 200g class) from 100% butane "long" cans. Caveat: I only use 100% butane when the temperature is going to be above 10C. It's quite convenient to "top up" a 100g canister that only has 30g left in it -- a canister that would otherwise be next to useless.

What do you do when the temperature is below 10°C? Do you add a fraction of propane as part of your refills?

I am tempted to add propane, but so far I have resisted. 100% butane has such low pressure that I really don't worry too much about over pressurizing a canister -- a canister that can easily handle 30% propane content. Add that propane, and you've eroded your safety margin just a bit.

If I'm going out in weather below 10C, I either take steps to warm the canister or ... I buy a canister at the local shop like everyone else. A nice propane-isobutane mix is just the ticket for colder weather, down to about -7C for upright stoves or -18C for inverted, and that's at sea level. You can go 1C colder for every 300m elevation. You still want to do things like putting the canister in (liquid) water to stabilize the temperature, but when you can go down to about -20C at 1000m elevation with a fresh inverted canister, that's pretty good cold weather performance on a gas stove.

HJ

I'm pretty sure it's 1 degree colder for every 100 metres in altitude. I think I posted a topic here with a reference once. Semantics.


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To memory it is 1C/300ft - which would make you correct.

Might be what he meant, being from USA, but he wrote metres. I didn't think of the fact that there's roughly 300 feet in 100 metres.


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You guys are thinking of the lapse rate which goes at an average 3.5°F per 1000 feet, with a seasonal dependency if I remember correctly.

What hikin' jim meant was that if you go up in altitude 100 meters the air pressure will drop about 10 millibars (for the first several thousand meters). So for a 300 meter change that would be 30 mb. Around 0°C a 1°C change in temperature corresponds to a 38 mb change in the vapor pressure of n-butane, which means you can use the butane stove 0.8°C colder. The colder the butane the smaller the pressure change per unit temperature change so by the time you get up to about 2500 meters a +100 meter change really does allow you to use butane 1°C colder.

But I think hikin_jim is a chicken for not adding a little propane. With a little care and pressure checking it isn't dangerous.

Thanks Orion.
That's a lot of info...



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