Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

[GPSGuided]

you put a plate of the identical types and amounts of foods in front of two people and keep doing it repeatedly
one of those people could loose weight and the other gain weight...
genetics can be a big variable...

Caloric out oversees genetic variations along with all factors that relates to caloric expenditure at an individual level, nothing to do with the portion of food (caloric in) between two individuals. Smaller person with lower resting caloric burn will necessarily eat less to stay on zero balance while a bigger active person with higher resting caloric burn will eat comparatively more to stay in zero balance. The suggestion of two different individuals eating identical food has no meaning.

[wayno]

depends on the definition of calories in vs calories out
because it demonstrates the difference in how much nutrition people get from their food varies...
in theory calories eaten might still be exceeding calories out but if they arent digesting enough of the calories then they can still loose weight.

[GPSGuided]

depends on the definition of calories in vs calories out

Medically there is only one definition and the body is treated as one system and that's how caloric measurements are measured. All credible health practitioners and researchers adopt this definition in publications. No two ways about it.

[wayno]

yes but what people may see is someone who eats a lot of food and never gets fat and someone who doesnt eat much and is overweight...

[photohiker]

Yes but

We are talking about each individual here, not comparing genes, choice of food types, lifestyle, etc. between people.

If one person is overweight and we reduce their calorie intake whilst increasing their exercise, will they lose weight?

[GPSGuided]

yes but what people may see is someone who eats a lot of food and never gets fat and someone who doesnt eat much and is overweight...

Then that's an individual's problem, nothing to do with the diet given nor the equation. Variation will happen to any specialty diet one cares to put out. Quite simply, if one is not losing weight, then one's caloric intake is still too high. Cut, cut, cut, or run, run, run (to increase calorie out)!

[wayno]

they should and in a lot of cases they will but by how much will vary greatly, and it depend on how many calories you cut and how much exercise you give them and that they can maintain... ultimately they will loose weight,
but in the long run will power can be the deciding factor, can people keep restricting calories and can they keep up the exercise to expend more energy than they ingest...
in some people who look fat , its as much water retention and not necessarily just fat retention making them fat, and teh calorie exercise scenario may not change a lot and in fact cause problems as they may not have as much fat as imagined... they dont necessarily need to cut calories at all and increase exercise, it may actualy make them less healthy

[GPSGuided]

but in the long run will power can be the deciding factor, can people keep restricting calories and can they keep up the exercise to expend more energy than they ingest...
in some people who look fat , its as much water retention and not necessarily just fat retention making them fat, and teh calorie exercise scenario may not change a lot and in fact cause problems as they may not have as much fat as imagined... they dont necessarily need to cut calories at all and increase exercise, it may actualy make them less healthy

Medically, patients who have fluid retention are not treated as obese. It's the dry weight that's considered when talking about obesity. That's very clear and well defined. Anyone who can't differentiate that shouldn't be giving advice nor be part of a discussion on diet and health.

True that will power can waver, but the effect would be no different on whatever specialty diet. At the end of the day, calorie balance is an undeniable scientific fact. It's the commercial diet market that plays with people's psyche. The question is, are fancy diets and books treating the psychology or the metabolic processes? I suggest the prior along with huge profits.

[wayno]

for a person who is doing their own diet without sound professional advice , they arent likely to be able to tell if their weight issue is fluid or fat.
body mass index isnt an accurate guideline to obesity and its overused.
so it can be a dangerous thing to try and loose weight through dieting, as dieting may not actually be the solution for someone who is overweight with excess fluid in the body... it may do more harm than good.

[GPSGuided]

for a person who is doing their own diet without sound professional advice , they arent likely to be able to tell if their weight issue is fluid or fat.

The great great majority of people don't have fluid retention. If there is fluid retention, then the doctor should be the first port of call. Fact is, fluid retention is easy to diagnose. Just look at the ankles and press on it. In any case, a body can only retain so much fluid before there'll be serious health sequelae. People who need to lose weight typically have a far larger margin than what fluid retention can give. Not a valid argument here.

[wayno]

yes, but people who use body mass index can be deceived about what true obesity is, and how much weight they should loose, if you're a front row rugby player, changes are you will come out as being obese, but in reality you could be playing for the wallaby's and you're just built like a mac truck all round,
so professional advise is a good starting point for anyone looking at weight loss.

[photohiker]

Perhaps we should rename this thread to Cardio and Obesity MythBusters.

[GPSGuided]

yes, but people who use body mass index can be deceived about what true obesity is, and how much weight they should loose, if you're a front row rugby player...

You've just changed the focus of discussion from weight loss/caloric balance to recognition of obesity and limitations of BMI and other constructs. One advice, see your doctor! We have universal health care, so use it. I can be more understanding of those living in the US who doesn't have health care coverage.

[GPSGuided]

Perhaps we should rename this thread to Cardio and Obesity MythBusters.

Who'll list the myths and who'll bust?

[wayno]

yup but with anyone worried about wanting to loose weight. theres so much to consider, i'm pointing out how deceiving the weight loss isue can be for someone who isnt a health professional...

[GPSGuided]

yup but with anyone worried about wanting to loose weight. theres so much to consider, i'm pointing out how deceiving the weight loss isue can be for someone who isnt a health professional...

But you also under-estimated how readily information are available. For the amount of effort people have gone to read up and regurgitate various specialty diets, for the same level of intellect and effort, all the factors you've listed are trivial to understand and bypass. For the rest, ask a family doctor. The really hard part is to get around the marketing and sensationalistic media and see how simple weight loss really is. No pain, no gain, just eat less and exercise more. If doesn't work, eat even less and exercise even more. That's all. It's all in the will of the individual.

[wayno]

no, some people have issues because there are metabolic issues i've mentioned that make their body resist weight loss. you have to watch how much you diet, severe dieting causes more health issues in the long term than it resolves...just focusing on what your weight is doing alone can be a bad strategy...you need to feel healthy as well while you are loosing weight, if you dont feel healthy or feel less healthy on your weight los regime then you probably need professional help to avoid harming your health.

[wayno]

when i made big changes to my diet i lost 15 kilos in a month, but i wasnt exercising a lot. the weigh just flew off, it couldnt have all been fat i wasnt burning enough energy, when you loose fat from memory you loose four times the amount of water because the fat cells are eighty percent water. so if i lost 3 kilos of fat 9 calories a gram thats 27000 calories if it was just normal fat loss... i'd have to starve myself to burn that much energy in fat, and i never cut my calorie intake at all, it was a normal intake that should ahve maintained my weight, i wasnt exercising much at all. theres no way i was burning off anywhere near that much energy, i didnt have puffy ankles as you said i should have for watr retention , but i can only surmise the extra weight loss was excess water. and i didnt burn that much fat at all...

[GPSGuided]

no, some people have issues because there are metabolic issues i've mentioned that make their body resist weight loss.

Wayno, please name those specific metabolic issues. In a hospital, treatment of primary metabolic condition eg. Hyper and hypthyroidism but caloric balance is also necessarily part of that treatment regime. Or nothing works.

Fact is, people with specific metabolic issues have a disease and need to be treated as such. They will have different rates and modes in their responses that's all. Inadequate excuse to invalidate a fundamental law in energy conservation.

[wayno]

high or low thyroid thyroid, hyper and hypothyroidism.
high (cushings disease) or low (addisons disease ) adrenal function

[photohiker]

Re myths and busters: this is an exercise for the reader.

US talking about banning trans fats:

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-0 ... ys/5078178

United States regulators are proposing a ban of artificial trans fats in processed food like margarine, frozen pizza and microwave popcorn.

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) says the ban will require packaged-food makers to choose safer, mono or polyunsaturated fats, and the subsequent reduction of trans fat consumption could prevent 20,000 heart attacks and 7,000 deaths from heart disease per year.

[wayno]

hallelujah, we're all saved... now lets go and play with the iceberg heading our way....

[photohiker]

high or low thyroid thyroid, hyper and hypothyroidism.
high (cushings disease) or low (addisons disease ) adrenal function

Incidence of thyroid disorders in the community: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7641412

RESULTS:

Outcomes in terms of morbidity and mortality were determined for over 97% of the original sample. The mean incidence (with 95% confidence intervals) of spontaneous hypothyroidism in women was 3.5/1000 survivors/year (2.8-4.5) rising to 4.1/1000 survivors/year (3.3-5.0) for all causes of hypothyroidism and in men was 0.6/1000 survivors/year (0.3-1.2). The mean incidence of hyperthyroidism in women was 0.8/1000 survivors/year (0.5-1.4) and was negligible in men. Similar incidence rates were calculated for the deceased subjects.

Incidence of obesity in the community: http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/your-health/obe ... overweight

Obesity and Overweight

The prevalence of overweight and obesity among Australians has been steadily increasing for the past 30 years. In 2011–12, around 60% of Australian adults were classified as overweight or obese, and more than 25% of these fell into the obese category (ABS 2012). In 2007, around 25% of children aged 2–16 were overweight or obese, with 6% classified as obese (DoHA 2008).

Thyroid problems a major factor in obesity?

[wayno]

diagnosed thyroid problems, a lot of people may not realise they have a thyroid problem, my mother was recently diagnosed with a thyroid problem and the dr said likely it was the source of a health issue thats been plagueing her a lot of her adult life, because now she is being treated for the condition her health has improved...
you're putting on weight, you dont know you ahve low thyroid, you may just think thats life and not go to teh dr....
mate of mine is a health professional, he tests a lot for thyroid and adrenal issues and he comes across a lot of people who are affected, he reckons adrenal deficiency is pretty rife in people living high stress lives... but yet a lot of dr's dont even acknowledge adrenal deficiency exists let alone test for it.

[GPSGuided]

As said, those specific metabolic problems are but a tiny minority. Diagnosis and treatment of thyroid problem is one of the simplest around. TFT (Thyroid Function Test) and suppression drug/ablate/excise if it's hyper, thyroid hormone replacement if it's hypo. All fixed. Diabetes is far more difficult to manage in comparison. So just go and see a doctor, otherwise carries no weight in this current discussion on weight control.

[wayno]

adrenal issues can be a real nightmare. i've had issues that have taken me decades to get on top of, and a friend of mine has serious health issues from his adrenals

[Son of a Beach]

I'm seeing a lot of theories here about nutrition and explanations of weight gains and loss, but also a lot of tip-toeing around GPSGuided's repeated "Elephant in the Room":

weight loss is all about will power. Eat less and exercise more for negative caloric balance and its all solved.

Do we agree on this, if not why not?

This is undeniably true. However, it is also grossly simplistic, and not of much value in isolation.

Some high calorie sources (in particular sucrose, which is half fructose) seriously messes with human metabolism in a number of dangerous ways, as mentioned by OSM earlier. In particular, of interest to weight loss, it actually disables a persons normal ability to feel 'full' when they've eaten enough calories. Therefore it makes it exceedingly difficult for a person to eat only a small amount (less than they are using) and hence they are more likely to put on weight when getting calories from such a source.

I think this is what OSM was referring to in that not all calories are equal. Yes, they are equal in the sense that calories in < calories out = weight loss, but some calorie sources make this nigh on impossible to achieve, and have many other serious health problems along the way. Eg, Type II diabetes is seriously exacerbated by sugar (fructose/sucrose in particular) more so than just carbs in general (at least that's one of the current theories - I'm not expert, so I don't really know).

It's also worth noting that exercise does much, much less towards weight loss than most people think. Diet is an exponentially bigger factor. Although given the way that the fad of weight loss TV shows focus on exercise, you could forgive people for thinking otherwise. I guess 30 minutes of watching people not eating is not as interesting as 30 minutes of people doing bizarre exercise regimes while being screamed at by somebody in cammo clothing.

Of course people should still exercise. It does still help with calorie burning, but has way more important benefits than that!

[wayno]

diabetes is aggravated by high fat consumption, insulin doesnt function as effectively with a high fat diet.... the body has to produce more , putting more stress on the pancreas or requiring ore insulin to be administered to a diabetic...
i know a diabetic who finds this is the case. less fat he eats the less insulin he needs to administer to control his blood sugar
nz has big diabetes problems with a lot of polynesians eating high fat diets...

[GPSGuided]

This is undeniably true. However, it is also grossly simplistic, and not of much value in isolation.

Some high calorie sources (in particular sucrose, which is half fructose) seriously messes with human metabolism in a number of dangerous ways...

The best medical treatment always adheres to the KISS principle. In this, why make it so complicated when simpler will do? Why are people taking "high calorie" sources when a simple balanced diet is the recommendation? Why bother with the various fancy explanation, excuses and diets when the removal of said calorie source should be removed? It's just illogical to go to all those fancy and often commercially expensive solutions when a far simpler solution is at hand? Think about it and get rid of all the media and commercial spins! There are no "fatties" during an African famine. If the will is there, getting the weight down is but natural.

[wayno]

people often just dont read labels, they dont realise how much sugar is in processed foods. "healthy cereals and muesli bars"
and fat, muesli bars are often high in fat...
read the labels on food and you'll be surprised...
some tomato sauces are in fact apple sauce...
people dont think about how much sugar is in the fizzy drink they are drinking or teh buiscuit.
chocolate is up to 50% sugar and 50% fat
and on and on it goes... it racks up as you eat processed food throughout the day.