Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

[wayno]

sugar increases dopamine production in the brain,, if you are eating sugar regularly you will be used to the elevated dopamine production, take away the sugar and you will notice the drop in dopamine production and feel prety crummy, and want the elevated dopamine levels.
i worked with someone who had a diet that had high amounts of sugar in almost everything she ate, i seldom eat anything with sugar, she would constantly offer me her food and was amazed that i could turn it down, she admitted she wouldnt have the will power to turn it down

[wayno]

weston price arrived at his healthy eating guidelines based on evidence he compiled spent observing healthy populations around the world

Total fat content of traditional diets varies from 30 percent to 80 percent of calories but only about 4 percent of calories come from polyunsaturated oils naturally occurring in grains, legumes, nuts, fish, animal fats and vegetables. The balance of fat calories is in the form of saturated and monounsaturated fatty acids.

http://www.westonaprice.org/basics/prin ... lthy-diets

[photohiker]

Has anyone actually read the guidelines geoskid linked?

Guideline 1
To achieve and maintain a healthy weight, be physically active and choose
amounts of nutritious food and drinks to meet your energy needs

Children and adolescents should eat sufficient nutritious foods to grow and
develop normally. They should be physically active every day and their growth
should be checked regularly.

Older people should eat nutritious foods and keep physically active
to help maintain muscle strength and a healthy weight.

Guideline 2
Enjoy a wide variety of nutritious foods from these five food groups
every day:

Plenty of vegetables of different types and colours, and legumes/beans

Fruit

Grain (cereal) foods, mostly wholegrain and/or high cereal fibre varieties, such as
breads, cereals, rice, pasta, noodles, polenta, couscous, oats, quinoa and barley

Lean meats and poultry, fish, eggs, tofu, nuts and seeds, and legumes/beans

Milk, yoghurt, cheese and/or their alternatives, mostly reduced fat.

And drink plenty of water.

Guideline 3
Limit intake of foods containing saturated fat, added salt, added sugars and alcohol

Limit intake of foods high in saturated fat such as many biscuits, cakes, pastries,
pies, processed meats, commercial burgers, pizza, fried foods, potato chips,
crisps and other savoury snacks.

Replace high fat foods which contain predominately saturated fats such as
butter, cream, cooking margarine, coconut and palm oil with foods which contain
predominately polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fats such as oils, spreads,
nut butters/pastes and avocado.

Low fat diets are not suitable for children under the age of 2 years.

Limit intake of foods and drinks containing added salt

Read labels to choose lower sodium options among similar foods.

Do not add salt to foods in cooking or at the table.

Limit intake of foods and drinks containing added sugars such as confectionary,sugar-sweetened soft drinks and cordials, fruit drinks, vitamin waters, energy
and sports drinks.

If you choose to drink alcohol, limit intake. For women who are pregnant, planning a pregnancy or breastfeeding, not drinking alcohol is the safest option

I can see why wayno doesn't like it

Yes, they suggest limiting saturated fats. That would be based on current evidence. Do the saturated fats supporters here actually believe that this recommendation is based on the Ansell Keys paper? Are you aware that research did not stop after that was published? Wiki link to recent research table.

The next version of the dietary guidelines will probably take on trans fats as well I guess, following the FDA lead.

[wayno]

well theres also the statement about low sodium,,
low sodium diets arent good diets for people who are very physically active and sweat a lot... hyponatraema has been discussed before here. health problems caused by low sodium intake when sweating a lot...

[GPSGuided]

sugar increases dopamine production in the brain,, if you are eating sugar regularly you will be used to the elevated dopamine production, take away the sugar and you will notice the drop in dopamine production and feel prety crummy, and want the elevated dopamine levels.

Not too different to quitting smoking. Nothing unique. Just part of our normal neuro responses.

[GPSGuided]

well theres also the statement about low sodium,,
low sodium diets arent good diets for people who are very physically active and sweat a lot... hyponatraema has been discussed before here. health problems caused by low sodium intake when sweating a lot...

Seriously. The guideline is kept simple and is geared for a general population. If one has some special salt losing activity, then obviously that needs to be replaced appropriately. Apply some common sense, that's all.

[Onestepmore]

Compare the guidelines above to the Swedish ones. There was a link earlier on in the thread. I can't relink it from my phone sorry.

[GPSGuided]

in science you can often get different sides to an argument.. just look at global warming.

But the body of evidence will show the way forward. The evidence on man induced global warming is overwhelming at this point in time. Pick and choose data is for the spin doctors and pseudo-scientists, not anyone who understands how the scientific process works.

[photohiker]

well theres also the statement about low sodium,,
low sodium diets arent good diets for people who are very physically active and sweat a lot... hyponatraema has been discussed before here. health problems caused by low sodium intake when sweating a lot...

These are the national dietary guidelines, not the national athletics dietary guidelines. There is way too much salt in just about every processed food. It's there because it's cheaper to add salt than high quality proteins. A member of the general public would have to be extraordinarily obsessive about salt to get themselves into trouble. (I'm sure it happens though)

[photohiker]

Never mind Sweden, look at Finland:



This was a result of a national intervention:

- Reduce saturated fats intake
- Reduce salt intake
- Reduce smoking
- Encourage exercise.

Finland had one of the highest cardiac death rates in the world prior to the intervention.

Info from WHO Chronic Disease Report

Reducing death rates from heart disease in Finland

In the 1970s, Finland had the world’s highest death rate from cardiovascular disease. This was largely a result of widespread and heavy tobacco use, high-fat diet and low vegetable intake. In response to local concerns, a large-scale community-based intervention was organized, involving consumers, schools, and social and health services. It included legislation banning tobacco advertising, the introduction of low-fat dairy and vegetable oil products, changes in farmers’ payment schemes (linking payment for milk to protein rather than fat content), and incentives for communities achieving the greatest cholesterol reduction. Death rates from heart disease in men have been reduced by at least 65%, and lung cancer death rates in men have also fallen. Greatly reduced cardiovascular and cancer mortality has led to greater life expectancy – approximately seven years for men and six years for women.

[photohiker]

Finnish Dietary guidelines: (Link)

Finnish Nutrition Recommendations 2005

New recommendations 2005 add physical activity with good nutrition

The Finnish nutrition recommendations have been renewed in 2005. They are based on the new Nordic Nutrition Recommendations which were approved in 2004 by the Nordic Council of Ministers. The goal of the recommendations is to improve the diet of the Finnish people and public health. As the most important diet-related health problems are cardiovascular disease, osteoporosis, diabetes, obesity and dental caries, it is important that Finns:

Have balance between energy intake and energy expenditure.
Have a balanced nutrient intake.
Increase the intake of carbohydrates with high fiber content.
Decrease the intake of refined sugars.
Decrease the intake of hard fat and increase the proportion of soft fats.
Decrease the intake of salt (natrium).
Have moderate alcohol consumption

Recommendations on physical activity are also included. The adult population should undertake a minimum of 30 minutes of daily physical activity of moderate intensity. For prevention of weight gain more physical activity, about 60 minutes, may be needed. For children and adolescents there should be a minimum of 60 minutes of physical activity every day.

[GPSGuided]

Never mind Sweden, look at Finland:

Never mind Finland. Did you get a chance to look at the 'century of Australian mortality rates' PDF link Phil posted earlier? It similarly showed a cardiovascular mortality trend as that of Finland here in Australia. A major peak in the late 60s to 70s, then trending downward, to a level (per 100,000) in 2000 that's lower than back in 1907. Apart from all the factors listed, one should also recognise the major advancements in the treatment of CV diseases, especially since the 60s. That was the golden period in the treatment of CV diseases, from pharmaceutics to surgical (think bypasses, transplant etc).

[wayno]

finland is an extreme case, traditionally especially amongst foresters they would eat foods like bread dripped in lard on a regular basis, they had a very high fat intake well above normal, i dont know about their salt intake but high salt diet damages the artery walls and sets the stage for fat and cholesterol clogging the arteries, also low vitamin d levels means their blood is thicker than normal and more prone to clotting on a bad diet.. people in the arctic areas notice the warming effect of eating fat and they have historically had a tendency to go for high fat diets.
they have the highest consumption of milk in the world and high meat consumption

http://chartsbin.com/view/1491

also in 1987 they were still eating 170 grams of fat a day on average after they'd already dropped their consumption...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 759290038L

[wayno]

also the trending down comes at a time when pharmaceuticals are being used to reduce clogging of the arteries... as well as the message of saturated fats to be reduced in the diets, fat cops all the blame but its not as simple as that

[photohiker]

Never mind Sweden, look at Finland:

Never mind Finland. Did you get a chance to look at the 'century of Australian mortality rates' PDF link Phil posted earlier? It similarly showed a cardiovascular mortality trend as that of Finland here in Australia. A major peak in the late 60s to 70s, then trending downward, to a level (per 100,000) in 2000 that's lower than back in 1907. Apart from all the factors listed, one should also recognise the major advancements in the treatment of CV diseases, especially since the 60s. That was the golden period in the treatment of CV diseases, from pharmaceutics to surgical (think bypasses, transplant etc).

Found it: Mortality over the twentieth century in Australia

The equivalent graphic is on P24:



So wayno, I guess Australia is an extreme case too? Does NZ have similar stats, what do they look like?

[Onestepmore]

There is a difference between incidence of cardiovascular disease, and deaths due to cardiovascular disease. Doctors are better at keeping us alive now, and people are more likely to live longer and die of other things rather than directly of a heart attack (myocardial infarct). Better to look at trends of cardiovascular disease over the last sixty or so years.
Also a good study to look at is the Framington Heart study, the longest nutritional and health study in the world, that tracks long term trends etc in a US city. From just after WW2 I think. (I may have the name wrong. I can edit when I get home). Neither a high fat diet, amount of saturated fat consumed, nor cholesterol intake, were positively correlated with high risk cardiovascular events. Smoking definitely was.

[wayno]

a guy I know had to have a heart valve replaced, dr's have him on statins, blood thinners low fat low cholesterol diet, hes getting sicker by the year. needs more and more sick leave despite the fact they sorted out his initial heart problem, he falls asleep at work, low energy, despite meds his blood pressure is out of control... the dr's have sorted one problem but created several more

[GPSGuided]

There is a difference between incidence of cardiovascular disease, and deaths due to cardiovascular disease. Doctors are better at keeping us alive now, and people are more likely to live longer and die of other things rather than directly of a heart attack (myocardial infarct). Better to look at trends of cardiovascular disease over the last sixty or so years.

At the same time, can't be ignored.

Also a good study to look at is the Framington Heart study, the longest nutritional and health study in the world, that tracks long term trends etc in a US city. From just after WW2 I think. (I may have the name wrong. I can edit when I get home). Neither a high fat diet, amount of saturated fat consumed, nor cholesterol intake, were positively correlated with high risk cardiovascular events. Smoking definitely was.

That's the Framingham study, in MA, USA. Whilst it was a foundation study, it was one study. Science is never based on one single study, but a balance of studies and evidences out there.

[wayno]

nz mortality stats are here, a few pages down it shows heart disease stats from the 80's

http://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/ ... sional.pdf

[GPSGuided]

a guy I know had to have a heart valve replaced, dr's have him on statins, blood thinners low fat low cholesterol diet, hes getting sicker by the year. needs more and more sick leave despite the fact they sorted out his initial heart problem, he falls asleep at work, low energy, despite meds his blood pressure is out of control... the dr's have sorted one problem but created several more

So? A single case anecdotal example. Without knowing the specifics of his heart valve problem, what conclusion can one make? There are quite a number of different heart valve "problems" out there and some of them are associated with sudden death. If he is still hanging around and can still attend work, then there's every possibility that he is a treatment success, a conjecture that's as possible as what you've put forward.

[wayno]

my friend is a naturopath and its a pattern he sees over and over again, he gets results increasing peoples saturated fat intakes if they are on a low sat fat and cholesterol diet, and also gets results by reducing veg fat...

[GPSGuided]

nz mortality stats are here, a few pages down it shows heart disease stats from the 80's
http://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/ ... sional.pdf

So also trending downwards since 1980, a period that's post the key inflection point of the late 60s and early 70s in the other national statistics.

[photohiker]

nz mortality stats are here, a few pages down it shows heart disease stats from the 80's
http://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/ ... sional.pdf

So also trending downwards since 1980, a period that's post the key inflection point of the late 60s and early 70s in the other national statistics.

Yep. So it looks like Finland, Australia and NZ are extreme cases.

[wayno]

well we weren't too far off the Finnish. we were all right up there in the fat consumption stats, being meat and dairy producers made us bigger consumers of fat NZ especially.
just announced on tv rates of strokes have rockets in nz,, deaths have gone down though,
strokes in the young are going up. , up 66% overall in polynesians, they love their junk food, big is beautiful to polynesians, they have less cultural issues around letting themselves become obese

[Son of a Beach]

More directly related to sugar is diabetes of course. And there are many complications that can occur from that. Apparently it's the fastest growing chronic illness in Australia (and probably other western countries) according to http://www.diabetesaustralia.com.au/Und ... Australia/

[GPSGuided]

More directly related to sugar is diabetes of course. And there are many complications that can occur...

We know that's a state of metabolic disorder, so the point here is?

[corvus]

Well who would have "thunk" that a simple snack bar would incur so much input , I eat Red Meat, Salami ,Pork Crackling ,Butter and real Cheese occasionally, also eat my fair share of veggies every day so why this big scare about a simple ( I have never eaten one) Sanitarium One Square Meal Bar
How many are you really going to eat one in your life as opposed to lets say a sausage in bread at the supermarket,a Maccas,home BBQ with nice fat lamb chump chops et all
corvus

[wayno]

BBC doco Why-Are-Thin-People-Not-Fat

http://www.theage.com.au/tv/Health/Why- ... 81501.html

[Son of a Beach]

More directly related to sugar is diabetes of course. And there are many complications that can occur...

We know that's a state of metabolic disorder, so the point here is?

Sorry, I thought it was obvious. Type II diabetes in the majority of cases can be controlled simply by good diet, and simply wouldn't even occur in the first place (in many cases) if a good diet was adhered to. The increase of sugar in our western diets parallels the increase in diabetes very closely. Before synthetic insulin, diet was the only way to control it and in many cases they did quite well that way. Modern medicine makes it too easy to control it by medication and not worry too strictly about diet.

In particular the increase in type II diabetes in very young people is quite dramatic. Many people think this is due largely to the increase if sugar in the diet.

Type II diabetes is a metabolic disorder. But in many cases it is actually caused by poor diet, and not necessarily something that would have happened anyhow. Of course some people are genetically predisposed to it more than others.

My wife has a very strong genetic probability of becoming diabetic. However, the evidence shows that if she maintains a healthy lifestyle (ie, diet), the chances are vastly reduced.

NB: I'm not suggesting that this applies to all diabetics or that those who are insulin dependent haven't tried hard enough. I'm sure it is harder (or even impossible) for some.

[Son of a Beach]

Has anyone actually read the guidelines geoskid linked?

Yeah, I was a bit out of line and have subsequently edited my post. Me and my soap box. And it's not even my box.