TASMAP Electronic Downloads - some progress

[tastrax]

I would almost guarantee that TASMAP use vector data for the creation of the Raster images

I will see if I can get someone from DPIPWE mapping to join the forum to answer a few questions

[Ent]

Hi Tastrax

That would be great if possible. I can only dream that Tasmap make available the vector information in Garmin format. Then we will have proper maps for the Garmin not near useless commercial ones. But even if that is not possible at least quality raster imagines not the shonky scans

Cheers

[sthughes]

This is a tad off topic, but here is an example of Memory Maps out of date maps and the lousy raster images currently available. Take Tyndall: Revised by Tasmap in 2007, Memory map say they have a 3 year revision cycle so surely it's been updated from the mid 80's era one?

Memory map in 2012

A paper map I bought and scanned roughly myself and stitched the bits together.

It's a matter of timing surely. Yeah it's a shame some of tasmap's scanning wasn't too good, but they are all readable.

Barely, i.e.:

Anyone from Lileah will be able to tell you this area is not flat - but where are the contours?

Capture1.JPG (95.45 KiB) Viewed 26650 times

Perfectly fine for almost $300? (Hint: It should be green, not brown)

Capture2.JPG (153.25 KiB) Viewed 26650 times

[photohiker]

The most recent TASMAP purchases I have were from the NW area and were less than a year ago. Regardless of map update recency, they were all scans of paper maps.

Be nice if they go to a fully digital product at a higher resolution, but I agree with Miyata.

Tasmap appears to be moving ahead, Lets see how far before we decide to continue the beatings.

[Miyata610]

This is a tad off topic.....

Nah, I reckon it fits within this thread pretty well.

It looks like, from the copyright, that memory map use the raster images from tasmap. i.e. they're not the ones creating the poor scanning quality, tasmap are.

We don't know when Memory Map purchased those images from Tasmap. Sure we can speculate. We also don't know exactly what images Tasmap supplied to Memory Map on that day.

These maps are an absolute bargain. For less than $100 I got ALL the tasmap 25k AND the 100K for the entire state and that's for TWO devices, so less than $50 a copy for all that!!!!

Awesome!

If you want to see some funny omissions... check the missing major highway from cradle to the west coast on the 25k maps. LOL.

As with most problems, you can instantly switch to the 100k map and check out an alternative view. Gets around every problem I've found, including your examples. Nice.

[Miyata610]

A paper map I bought and scanned roughly myself and stitched the bits together

I'm guessing that comes under "educational purposes" under the copyright act 1968. LOL.

Wish I could do that, but since I operate commercially I'm not allowed. I have to pay for images and some of that money presumably goes back to Tasmap to pay for the excellent work they do.

[sthughes]

This is a tad off topic.....

It looks like, from the copyright, that memory map use the raster images from tasmap. i.e. they're not the ones creating the poor scanning quality, tasmap are.
I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, I probably weren't clear enough but I intended my examples to show two separate issues: 1. The outdatedness of Memory Map data and 2. The poor quality of the raster data available

We don't know when Memory Map purchased those images from Tasmap. Sure we can speculate.
They were purchased from Tasmap in 2007, according to Tasmap. I purchased Memory Map believing they worked on a 3 year revision cycle and hence that as Tasmap produced new maps I would only have to wait 3 years max. for them to filter down. I think a lot of people would assume the same thing from the Memory Map marketing.

These maps are an absolute bargain. For less than $100 I got ALL the tasmap 25k AND the 100K for the entire state and that's for TWO devices, so less than $50 a copy for all that!!!!
I agree they are reasonably priced, but in some ways you don't own them, you are quite limited by the format and software.

If you want to see some funny omissions... check the missing major highway from cradle to the west coast on the 25k maps. LOL.
I guess I like my maps to be accurate, rather than to make me laugh. In the case of that road Tasmap just haven't revised that area in a while, I'm sure it will make the new Pencil Pine map in December, and perhaps by 2020 Memory map might show that new edition?

As with most problems, you can instantly switch to the 100k map and check out an alternative view. Gets around every problem I've found, including your examples. Nice.
The 1:25k has so poor detail you are forced to switch to an even less detailed map, hardly ideal in my opinion. Depends what you are doing I guess, the 1:100k is not always suitable for me as I use it for more than bushwalking.

Don't get me wrong I think Memory Map has been the best thing available, I use it a lot. But in my opinion it has some pretty big flaws for various reasons, and I have had to resort to other means in some areas due to the quality/age of the data as well as the software limitations and the fact there is no simple way of getting better raster data from Tasmap. I hope the soon to be available electronic maps from Tasmap will be a far superior solution to what we have now, I can't wait to get buying!

[sthughes]

In case anybody else is wondering (like me) where these new downloadable maps are now the 30th of September has sailed past without a peep from Tasmap. On the Tasmap user forum Son of a Beach asked where the downloadable maps are at . Here is the Tasmap response

Hi
Unfortunately we have not been able to get the necessary modifications to the TASMAP site finished as yet to enable the electronic download of maps due to other competing priorities with the upgrades to the LIST service. I’m hesitant to put a firm date on final release but we hope to this completed by the end of this year.

Fingers are crossed, but not holding my breath.

[Ent]

Hi Sthughes

Was rather hoping to be proved wrong but Tasmap is Tasmap with Tasmap level of service O'well back to lake tracing with OSM

Cheers

[sthughes]

Hi Sthughes

Was rather hoping to be proved wrong but Tasmap is Tasmap with Tasmap level of service O'well back to lake tracing with OSM

Cheers

Hey well at least the new "Pencil Pine" 1:25,000 map is out 2 months early!

[Son of a Beach]

It seems this has been put on hold indefinitely. Tasmaps' announcement in their forum here: http://tasmap.proboards.com/index.cgi?b ... &thread=41

Does make you wonder what they really meant by "the final stages" in their original post in that topic.

I'm restraining myself from expressing my opinion on this.

nnnnnnngnnngggnggngngngnggggggg

It sure is difficult.

[sthughes]

Makes two of us. I'm no computer genius, but they have the images, they have an online shop, how hard can it be to add a "buy digital edition" button to each 1:25k map page? Grrr

[Son of a Beach]

Yeah, I would think that it would take one decent web programmer about two days to get this done even if they were starting from scratch. I mean I'm a much-less-than-decent web programmer, and I reckon it would take me about two weeks. It's not as though they'd have to write all the software themselves. You can download free software packages that can do it all and then just configure them for your needs. And as you say, they've already got an online store!

Perhaps there's some political issue that we're not aware of.

PS. Actually I did write a web application that does this (integrated with PayPal's "instant payment notifications" system). I think the client is still using it years later. It was quite straightforward.

[photohiker]

C'mon now.

This is a government department we're talking about. They would spend several months thinking about a spec, at least 6 months writing it and approving it, then it goes to the programming department, who will point out that the infrastructure is due for a refresh in 2014 so these is no point in starting anything yet. When the coding is finally done, testing will show that a crucial element of the system was never specified and the project will blow out by at least 100% and the delays will be interminable.

Government department use free software? Are you for real? Have you any idea what sort of response that would get them from their locked-in vendors? They will trot out the commercial advantages of their bloatware whilst glossing over the underlying spaghetti code and creaky glue holding their pretty but disastrously buggy e-commerce 'solution' together. Then, they will start to harp on about the lack of support for the free solution which will prey on the public servants who always want something to cover their backsides with even when the vendor support is already so poor no-one ever bothers to contact them except in a genuine emergency. When all else is exhausted, the vendors will point out the fine print in the contract - they have at least an option to quote, and in some cases mandatory rights to the work depending on the actual contract.

It's easy to write a one-off contract to sell the rights to memory map. Selling it to joe public over the internet, not so easy for TasMap...

[wander]

The glitch is probably implementation of "user pays and is not able to freely distribute the digital map therefore destroying future sales" concept. Digital Rights Management. If the multi-billion music and movie industry is not able to implement this how is Tas Map going to solve the problem?

They really just need to bit the bullet and follow the NZ model, those folks have got it sussed.

[sthughes]

The glitch is probably implementation of "user pays and is not able to freely distribute the digital map therefore destroying future sales" concept. Digital Rights Management. If the multi-billion music and movie industry is not able to implement this how is Tas Map going to solve the problem?

They really just need to bit the bullet and follow the NZ model, those folks have got it sussed.

Just do what the music industry has done and give up. Most people are more likely to buy if they actually own what they pay for and can use it how they please, I know I never used iTunes until it went DRM free.

[tastrax]

I have no real idea why the TASMAP project has stalled but I can tell you that as far as Parks are concerned this has been one hell of a summer and many works programs have simply stopped. Many staff multi-task in roles associated with emergency services and fire management and consequently they have not been doing their "normal" jobs since about mid November. Thankfully things have started to get back to normal in the last couple of weeks.

I know one of the DPIPWE priorities is the rewrite of the LIST online mapping system - this has probably taken precedence as it also includes some new features which will be used by emergency services.

Hopefully the digital download gets back on track soon. I suspect its not quite as easy as folks suggest especially if you want the latest map updates/edits as they occur in real time. Personally I don't see a lot of sense in implementing digital download of some of the old maps that have not had updates in years - that will just frustrate people.

[photohiker]

Personally I don't see a lot of sense in implementing digital download of some of the old maps that have not had updates in years - that will just frustrate people.

Good point. The current phone/email/download method delivers a scan of a paper map last time I did it, and at a relatively low DPI. Be nice if it was the original map data, higher resolution, and of course up to date.

[wander]

of sense in implementing digital download of some of the old maps that have not had updates in years - that will just frustrate people

That is not logical. We can buy the old paper map and be frustrated but not the digital map and be frustrated?

[tastrax]

OK - so maybe we just need to make sure that its quite prominent when the map was actually last updated to avoid any confusion

Remember, some were last updated back in 1980's

https://www.tasmap.tas.gov.au/upload/st ... oIndex.pdf

[Son of a Beach]

Alternatively, they could simply make only the recently compiled maps available digitally, and for the others add a note with an estimated date of availability.

[wander]

Yep, and plenty are not even on the program to be updated. So why wait 20 years for the update then the digital version? Just get the digital project done and keep the update program running at it's slooow but steady pace in the background?

For example Triabunna is 1985 and is beyond the current horizon of the TasMap forward plan of March 2015. https://www.tasmap.tas.gov.au/upload/static/content/MappingProgramFlyer.pdf

[colinm]

In my considered opinion what you should be pushing for is access to the vector data so you can draw your own maps, and so you can combine it with crowdsourced geodata like OSM. It's very good to have an A1 map as a summary, but in my experience nothing beats drawing your own maps from the raw data, which can be done with open source tools, at greater resolution than the printed maps will ever be.

Couple that with the fact that (at least in NSW) remote area maps are quite inaccurate, and you can see that the state mapping people are facing difficulties in maintaining relevance.

[Son of a Beach]

In my considered opinion what you should be pushing for is access to the vector data so you can draw your own maps, and so you can combine it with crowdsourced geodata like OSM. It's very good to have an A1 map as a summary, but in my experience nothing beats drawing your own maps from the raw data, which can be done with open source tools, at greater resolution than the printed maps will ever be.

Couple that with the fact that (at least in NSW) remote area maps are quite inaccurate, and you can see that the state mapping people are facing difficulties in maintaining relevance.

Sure thing. But if they could make them available for electronic download in ANY format, it would be better than what they're doing now, which is nothing.

[colinm]

I have submitted, and am now watching the progress of, a GIPA (Government Information Public Access) request for all vector data for NSW. We'll see how it goes (I expect it'll go to appeal, when the relevant authorities can explain in public why it's in the public interest for people to have to pay twice for mapping data - once to collect it, then again to access it.) This is after I put a proposal to the relevant Minister that the data for NSW National Parks be shared via OSM (several weeks have passed, no response, that's why I started the GIPA process.)

I encourage you to use whatever state legislation you might have for public access to information (used to be called Freedom of Information, here) to require the state to release its death grip on this public data.

I should add that if the state were doing a decent job of providing up to date and useful information at a reasonable price, this wouldn't be necessary, but it's not that way. Even the emergency services have trouble getting the data out of these guys - they're just not switched on to the possibilities of digital distribution, and they're hung up on outmoded ideas of ownership.

[sthughes]

Remember, some were last updated back in 1980's

In my end of the State MOST were updated in the 80s!

This comment, combined with me looking at maps for a couple of walks I'm doing soon has highlighted to me just how old the maps in North-West Tassie (in particular) are.

Of the 59 maps of mainland Tassie west of Devonport and north of Savage River (inclusive): 50 (85%) are 20 years old or more! And of those, most are over 25 years old!

But if you think the Northwest is hard done by, think again! How about the most North-easterly 59 mainland Tassie maps eh?
45 (76%) are over 20 years old, but of those most are 30+ years old!

Just for perspective, of the 59 most southern maps of the state only 22 (37%) are 20+ years old and on top of that 33 (56%) are 10 years old or newer! .

I wonder where Tasmap HQ is?

[colinm]

On the age of maps ... the underlying topography doesn't change much, the land use changes a bit, and our knowledge of both can change.

When the map's drawn is (to my mind) less important than how accurate the information is. When it comes to remote areas, what've you really got on a map? Hydrography, "stuff like cliffs"/elevations, land cover and trails. The first two don't change in 20 years, the second two change more rapidly.

Land cover can be ascertained from satellite images, trails can be generated by GPS, both available to the public - there's really nothing a mapping authority can give you that you can't get yourself.

Hydrography and "stuff like cliffs"/elevations won't have changed at all in 20 years. Hydrography (specifically "where are the creeks?") is usually done by stereoscopic analysis of aerial photos (labour intensive, fault-prone.)

Elevations can be done with stereoscopy (old school, labour intensive,) lidar (capital expensive, but likely to become less so over time) and satellite side-scan radar. Satellite DEM is freely available to anyone with 1m vertical and (IIRC) 30m horizontal resolution, but there are systemic errors caused by vegetation.

Bottom line is: the only things that are hard to work out and do yourself (or collaboratively) are hydrography and cliffs.

Now here's the bad news: there are tons of errors in remote area cliff line data (at least in NSW,) and the hydrography is almost entirely guess-work ("this looks like a creek should be there.") Mapping authorities can't afford to put boots on the ground to fix the errors, some of the stereoscopy is taken, I think, from aerial images even older than your 30+ year map printing age (again, in NSW) and all the other data is subject to quite substantial errors (transcription, systemic errors, sampling errors, etc etc.)

Once you look at it carefully, it becomes pretty clear that merely getting some raster images (georeferenced or not) is a pretty poor substitute for real geodata.

[photohiker]

I have submitted, and am now watching the progress of, a GIPA (Government Information Public Access) request for all vector data for NSW. We'll see how it goes (I expect it'll go to appeal, when the relevant authorities can explain in public why it's in the public interest for people to have to pay twice for mapping data - once to collect it, then again to access it.) This is after I put a proposal to the relevant Minister that the data for NSW National Parks be shared via OSM (several weeks have passed, no response, that's why I started the GIPA process.)

I encourage you to use whatever state legislation you might have for public access to information (used to be called Freedom of Information, here) to require the state to release its death grip on this public data.

I should add that if the state were doing a decent job of providing up to date and useful information at a reasonable price, this wouldn't be necessary, but it's not that way. Even the emergency services have trouble getting the data out of these guys - they're just not switched on to the possibilities of digital distribution, and they're hung up on outmoded ideas of ownership.

Excellent work colinm.

I wonder if we could find a Tassie resident you could coach along the same lines?

[colinm]

I wonder if we could find a Tassie resident you could coach along the same lines?

Sure, happy to help. Of course, we'll see how good a coach I can be when we see if I can induce the NSW government to disgorge theirs

Anyway, I'd start by reading the Tasmanian Right to Information Act 2009 http://goo.gl/mvXiv and the associated regulations http://goo.gl/t3NEF to see if there are any specific exclusions which would put geodata outside the scope of the act. I haven't read it, but I sort of doubt there will be.

There may be a public interest test in the legislation to help resolve conflicts - which is good - it means that if they refuse, they have to tell you why it benefits the public to refuse (hint: it doesn't.)

There may be copyright exclusions, but do not be put off - the state might claim copyright, but it may not in fact *own* copyright on this data. There's some recent case law which suggests (to me) that at least some of it can't be copyrighted.

Happy to help with suggestions.

[colinm]

I should add http://goo.gl/i4wwk is the proposal document I sent to the Minister in NSW. On Feb 7th 2013.

I haven't had *any* substantive reply, although I have spoken to the people who drafted the reply the Minister is sitting on.

I know that the Minister is trying to sell off the mapping authority (that is, he is seeking input from interested commercial parties as to how private enterprise might be used to make better use of the mapping authority's facilities and data.) I suspect that he's just trying to slow down his reply until he can say "So sorry, we just entered into an arrangement to sell all that data, if only you'd sent your proposal on the 6th February. No, you can't see the terms of the agreement we entered into, they're commercial in confidence." That's why I jumped to GIPA before the Minister's reply.