Garmin 62S, hardware from Heaven software from Hell

[Ent]

Hi All

Those that are vaguely familiar wit me know that I have low tolerance for software written by someone with the communication skills of a, well someone that just can not communicate.

Now here is an exercise. Mark a waypoint using the map cusor. Now no cheating and looking for the answer from the internet.

Ok for those that have given up and decided jumping off a cliff is less stressful, the unit has a mark button, but this will only mark a waypoint at the current location (ok you can manually enter a very long grid reference), so give up on that thought. What you do is move the pointer by using the cursor pad and the press the enter button followed by the menu button and then the enter button. Now why could you simply not position the cursor and press the mark button? Oh yes, it is a Garmin 62s interface designed by Satan.

Cheers

[dancier]

I've got a firm belief that Garmin has designed there GPS interfaces so that you can't grab one off the shelve and start using it straight away because some people would get lost, refer to the article.

Death by GPS
http://www.technolog.msnbc.msn.com/tech ... -you-12532

[Ent]

Novel belief. Would it not be better to design an intuitive interface to reduce the mistakes made by cold and tired people?

I tend to think the old saying "never put down to malice what stupidity can explain" applies here.

A GPS is a tool in the navigational equipment chest. And some tools can be hard to use because the job they do and others because of poor designs.

This example had a person familiar with other Garmins confused. The forum we got the answer from was a GPS forum and it had a few scratching their head.

I think the link you posted has been discussed to death in another thread. For me I generally have backups to the backups and in the last two walks with twenty meter visability a GPS is a handy thing. Personally I have map, old style compass, Sunto watch, GPS and iPone with GPS software. With all that more than happy to trundle behind someone that has walked the area before.

I wonder, are you related to the guy that designed the BF 109? O'well looks like the latest cars well be equipped with non synchro gear boxes. That should increase the skill level of drivers.

Cheers

[ILUVSWTAS]

If you hate Garmin so much Brett, why do you have one?????

[sthughes]

Not all Garmins have a totally unintuitive interface. My Etrex Venture HC is fine, nothing brilliant but quite okay. I absolutely hate the 62s, I feel like smashing it against a rock every time I have a play with it. It just seems they added a bunch of extra buttons but added no real functionality. I mean why have a dedicated "Mark" button that has such a narrow function of mark your current location? Why when you want to mark a position shown with the cursor do you not also use the "Mark" button, instead you use the "enter" button, then have to use the "Menu" button to bring up a hidden menu (with a single option). The "in" and "out" buttons only zoom in and out and nothing else, the "Quit" button doesn't quit, it is more of a back button, the "Page" button's function can also be replicated with the "Quit" button, the Menu button is usually (but not always) sensible and the "Enter" button sometimes acts like a menu button. I'm sure to the people who wrote the software and those that are very familiar with it this all works just dandy. But to someone just picking it up and wanting to use it it is just a giant PIA. Mapping for other than Garmin is an issue. Seems most of the less bad free mapping solutions are only available on Garmin, though be interested to see what Magellans new Tassie maps are like.

[tastrax]

I have actually found it quite easy however I have had Garmins for years so maybe my brain is now "Garmin centric". I think one of the blessings is that you can actually customise the interface quite a bit by removing the screens that you don't use very often. You can also make them into profiles so I have one for when I am flying around fire spotting and another for when I am walking. I think the trick is learning the most common things that you want to do.

What do you actually want to do with the waypoint that you mark with the cursor?

[Ent]

If you hate Garmin so much Brett, why do you have one?????

I brought on faith. Looks like I could not plot a coarse for Damascus.

Actually I love it's precision and battery life and as Stughes says if you want free maps Garmin is the best.

Cheers

[Ent]

Hi Taztrax

Handy when in fog, mist or scrub to have a waypoint to aim at. Infact a rough track helps especially where there is a limited number of access points. On Olympus we got clouded in. On Blizzard Plains it would have been handy to have a track plotted. Luckily weather was ok.

Now here is a good question. Explain trackback or is it Traceback. I did get it to work but surely it can not be as hard as I did it.

And surely it is not that hard for Garmin to design a consistent use for the mark button. As for the other buttons Sthughes' summary is spot on.

Cheers

[tastrax]

Hi Taztrax

Handy when in fog, mist or scrub to have a waypoint to aim at.

Thats what I thought - I think that is best achieved by (getting a fix) moving your cursor to the place you want to goto, press enter and then GO. Then going to the compass page for the directions.

I have never used the trackback (?) feature but I will look it up. I think it just allows you to "rewind" a track that you have been creating (as you walk through the scrub)

[photohiker]

I don't set a waypoint for that kind of activity, it's a waste of effort.

There's a setting (somewhere ) that you can set so that the bearing to the pointer is displayed. On the Vista HCx, a drop-down window displays showing the cursor position in the currently set datum as well as the distance and bearing to the pointer position from the current position.

Once I have that, out comes the actual compass, and we're off. You must be able to do this on the 62s In thick fog, I'd probably do the waypoint thing though.

Tracback - http://gpstracklog.com/2010/07/navigati ... helds.html

[Ent]

Hi Photohiker

It is not a case of whether you yourself chose to use a feature but how easy it is for people that use the feature. Some people think a GPS dangerous thing so do not use them or condider them a waste of time.

Yeap, Traceback as challenging as ever to figure out the first couple of times. It would be nice if a simple "take me back" option existed.

Why such thing? On the last few walks the weather has been bad with limited visability and also with the shorter days running out of daylight an issue. Also with high efficiency headlamps doing more night walking. Here a GPS is brilliant. Added to this is more off track walking means weak points in cliff lines needs precise navigation on the return trip.

In the past the tactic was simple, allow at least an hour of daylight spare. Modern time pressures means more and more people are cutting timing finer. Also not as young as one was means less ability to do more retracing steps.

I just wonder if Garmin is too focused on features rather than implementing them. The 62s had many more buttons than older Garmins and it appears that the software designers have not thought of a logical use of them.

Having done a reasonable test and few comparisons can not fault the actual performance of the 62s. Just wish more thought was put into the interface.

Cheers

[photohiker]

Hi Photohiker

It is not a case of whether you yourself chose to use a feature but how easy it is for people that use the feature.

Sure it is. It's called an alternate point of view.

I've used GPS for hundreds if not thousands of walking kilometers and also for several different models Garmin and otherwise, and over that time I have developed my use of them in this way without adding waypoints. Some of these devices have been dead easy to add a WP to. My experience tells me that it is mostly unnecessary, especially with the arrival of mapping on the GPS. By all means continue to add waypoints, my post was intended to be helpful and informative, not to tell you that there is a right way and a wrong way.

Sure, the Garmin interface could be better. No argument with that.

[ollster]

I really like my Garmin 62S, took a little getting used to, but no issues here at all. The Garmin desktop computer software on the other hand, is pretty rubbish.

[dancier]

The Garmin desktop computer software on the other hand, is pretty rubbish.

I assume you're talking about Basecamp, if so I'm probably one of the few that like the software. I suppose the biggest plus for me is the ability to set draw order of maps. On my Etrex 20 I can turn the basemap off or the custom map off but not individual custom maps. Often I'll have custom maps of different resolution in the GPS and the draw order lets them appear when they should, it's the same as map switching on the IPhone. I tend to use this feature when travelling, the long stretches between towns will have a low resolution map (less tiles) but the towns will have a high resolution maps (more tiles) with all the features showing. With the 100 tile limit it’s a good way of putting more maps in the unit.

[dancier]

I wonder, are you related to the guy that designed the BF 109? O'well looks like the latest cars well be equipped with non synchro gear boxes. That should increase the skill level of drivers.

Cheers

I was'nt going to bite but thought I'd say just get over yourself, it's a learing experience here and personal insults are not needed. If you don't like the toy don't play with it, but if you accept it's limitations then you'll find a way.

All the things mentioned so far I use but why join in when you, the OP is setting a negative tone.

[ILUVSWTAS]

I wonder, are you related to the guy that designed the BF 109? O'well looks like the latest cars well be equipped with non synchro gear boxes. That should increase the skill level of drivers.

Cheers

I was'nt going to bite but thought I'd say just get over yourself, it's a learing experience here and personal insults are not needed. If you don't like the toy don't play with it, but if you accept it's limitations then you'll find a way.

Ha. Good luck trying to get THAT through.....

[frenchy_84]

Personally, I expect my gps to determine a route through the scrub where I don't come in to contact with any vegetation while still being the shortest possible route, the fact that it doesn't do that can only mean that Garmin is *&%$#!.
I also expect it to brew me a latte everytine I store a waypoint and yet Garmin hasn't done this. When will these Mickey mouse companies start actually listening to customers and give them what they want!

[sthughes]

I don't think anyone is whining about the 62s not having all the features one could want for. It's just a shame such a brilliant unit is not complimented by equally brilliant software that allows you to make use of all the features easily and intuitively without a significant learning curve. Some of us bush walk regularly and use the devices regularly, but some only head out once or twice a year and it must be a pain having waste time working out such things every single time because software people couldn't be bothered making it intuitive.

Personally I think more people are likely to get lost rather than less if you make the device difficult to use. I mean every second person has a smartphone these days with a GPS and maps built in that is dead easy to use. However we don't see millions of people getting lost because of it. I would think the few who do get lost thinking an iPhone is all they need to navigate with would probably be offset by those with nothing but a map and compass using their smartphone to get out of trouble when conditions turn to crap (or when they work out they actually have no idea how to use a compass and map). Perhaps all the writing on a map should be in anagrams so as to make sure idiots don't try and use them?

[Ent]

Hi Dancier

Sorry if my jest fell flat.

Bit of history with the BF-109 to explain my comment. Way back in the thirties the BF-109 was evaluated for production. It had some very nasty landing characteristics along with handling issues. The designer realizing that he would lose the contract spoke to the test pilots and appealed to their vanity by "selling" the tricky handling as a means of establishing the superiority of the test pilots. Basically only substandard pilots could not handle the aircraft. So the designer won the contract.

Roll forward to 1940 and in that battle hastily train pilots on both sides were thrown into battle. A top German ace as a pilot used the BF-109 with great effect but as a commander was horrified at the accident rate with his new pilots. Hawker, renown for building easy to handle aircraft despite not having the impressive performance of its stable mate and its rival won out.

Put in bushwalking context, many walkers are occasional weekend warriors so unlike to have the time to learn and relearn a poor interface. If the design approach is to deliberately complicate the interface then Garmin have condemned themselves to history. I would find this a strange marketing approach but maybe Garmin is appealing to the vanity of "experienced" users.

I am sure that regular users of the 62s like it. As mentioned, it is a great piece of hardware. Pity more thought was not given to its user interface.

It is likely iPhone and their ilk will kill off the dedicated GPS for the average user. Especially if interfaces are not improved.

Cheers

[ollster]

There is an argument that just because an interface isn't intuitive, it doesn't make it slower to use. There are serious advantages for programmer for example, in using text editors that have heaps of complicated keyboard shortcuts to make typing things easier. intuitive for the average user, no. But for the person equipped with the skills to use the software, they are much more productive.

In short, intuitive is good, but not always.

Personally I agree that Garmin need to take some design cues from other software designers. But there are some aspects that should remain in their overall design of the unit. Try using a touchscreen with thick gloves on or in moist or especially cold conditions (capacitive screens ain't real good under those conditions, IME).

[sthughes]

Haha yeah, I've been know to resort to "tonguing" my phone on the odd occasion. Thats a whole other skill to be developed! As much as resistive touch screens suck, they have their place.
The old Nokias (5110, 3210 etc) were great intuitive UIs with minimal buttons that didn't even need a touch screen

[Ent]

Hi

As a veteran of vi and grep I agree Ollster that powerful tools that require effort are not a bad thing. In fact I prefer a command line interface. Hell of a lot easy to give instructions than graphical interfaces.

In the "testing" done the basic design of the 62s is good and the prominent antenna works well. Screen can be read in most light and gloves can be used. More thought on the role on buttons would be good along with thought of menu options.

Probably due to playing with maps I am more prone to think that the menu in the map display could bring up the option to change maps. In a way when Garmin allowed multiple IMG files this is a logical step.

It is just annoying as mentioned that the mark button has such a limited role. Ironically if it did not exist it would remove confusion.

Much the same is the logic behind "Traceback". Yes saving a track, then reversing it, to then engage it has a logic but a simple option to "take me home" would be nice.

In my experience a GPS tends to be referred to when other options are not working out. You are starting in a challenging position so makes sense to me to avoid complexity. In fact I did read on things I have learnt thread that multiple GPSs equals arguments.

MemoryMap on the iPhone has a feature that the maps rotate as the screen turns. Trouble is you reference the direction by the top of the iPhone. You can wind up 180 degrees out. With good visibility you have to stop and think what is wrong but when clouded in you can be turned around.

It is interesting that in the early days of USA someone made a high quality compass that did not identify if the needle was pointing north or south. British Navy when chasing the Bismark almost lost out as they were using the wrong charts for radio direction finding. The famous children author almost died when sent 180 degrees to where he was suppose to be when flying a plane.

All I am pushing is Garmin can and should do better. Be interesting how many people on this forum have GPSs and actually use them as their primary source of navigation. Also the reason they do or do not.

A GPS is great when visibility goes south in an unfamiliar area.

Cheers

[north-north-west]

Being the odd one out here - I use a Magellan Triton - makes this debate rather interesting. The maps it came with are ordinary - and badly out of date. While the contours are adequate when zoomed in, there's nowhere near enough detail for good navigation when you zoom out a bit. Still, it's very, very easy to use in the field. To backtrack I just follow the orange line back to where it started. It took me at most ten minutes of checking the basic instructions and following them while poking at the thing to learn how to do pretty well everything I need to do with it whilst walking.

VantagePoint isn't bad, although I still can't find out how to view the vertical profile of either a completed walk or a planned route on the PC. And why do ALL the GPS and open source mapmakers refuse to make their equipment/software usable on a Mac? And why can't I use Shonky and Contours with the Magellan?

*shrug*
Nothing's perfect. Unless you build it yourself to your own specifications. Good luck with that.

[corvus]

As a bit of a Luddite when it comes to this stuff how come I managed to not get lost b4 GPS ?
Oh !! is it because someone taught me to navigate from a young age with Map and Compass ,Sun and Stars (no need to worry about battery life) gees I think I can still approximate North from Trees
No complaint with those who do do use technology to navigate I just personally prefer to do it the way I was taught 55 years ago
Thank you Scouts.
corvus

[ollster]

55 years ago
Thank you Scouts.

So you were middle aged when you joined the Scouts then?

[corvus]

55 years ago
Thank you Scouts.

So you were middle aged when you joined the Scouts then?

Not sure how you read it? but 55years ago means just that to me or does it mean something else in digital speak ?? 10 +55 still equals 65 now or am I so much of a Luddite that it has changed and no one told me ?? as that person said "please explain"
corvus

[photohiker]

And why can't I use Shonky and Contours with the Magellan?
.

Well, I have some news for you, you can!

There is a person who goes by the name of OliverK who has done a Magellan version of Shonky. He's on gpsaustralia.net and you can get them with Festy's maps and others on DVD for $15 here: http://octapc.com.au/prod186.htm

Festy's are OSM Maps for Triton: http://maps.festy.org/downloads/magellan/triton/

Don't ask me how to load maps on a Magellan!

Which open source mapping are you trying to run on your Mac? I must be trying the wrong stuff, because it all works for me

[sthughes]

As a bit of a Luddite when it comes to this stuff how come I managed to not get lost b4 GPS ?

Maybe because in basically zero visibility you either a) followed the track, or b) Called it a day and hunkered down, or c) had a pretty good idea of the area from a previous visit?

[corvus]

As a bit of a Luddite when it comes to this stuff how come I managed to not get lost b4 GPS ?

Maybe because in basically zero visibility you either a) followed the track, or b) Called it a day and hunkered down, or c) had a pretty good idea of the area from a previous visit?

Perhaps you are correct sthughes,I do however remember a occasion when 5 GPS devices used by others overruled my admittedly limited local knowledge of an area which resulted in a long *&%$#! bush bash in the snow
corvus

[Ent]

Hi Corvus

My recollection was the maps did not have a track so it was an "interpretation" of where a track was. I also remember even when finding the track on Blizzard Plains the going was not much easier. I think I heard the words "leave me here to die" muttered once or twice by the bulldozers on the front as they face planted in the powered snow Also found out that no matter how well you protect and IPAQ using it in such conditions is a one way ticket to silicon heaven for it.

Amazing how much easier track finding is without snow. Anyway we now should have GPS plots to follow. But something tells me I will always manage to find a hole to fall into

Cheers