Bushwalk Australia

The SPOT 2 enables you send a predetermined message by SMS and/or email to nominated recipients while in remote places. This is a great way to keep friends and family informed that you're going ok and I have been using this feature of late. However, the feature has a bit of a double edge. A SPOT also has a PLB feature for alerting S&R.

Last week I did a week long hike in NZ and was using the SPOT to give my wife an "I'm OK" message every morning and night. On day 5, while bashing my way through some thick scrub (how I got there is a whole other topic!) I lost the SPOT. When I discovered this I realised I now had to change plans and get to a phone asap, the reason being that our agreed protocol was that if my wife didn't hear from me for 24 hours, she would alert S&R. I wasn't able to get to speak to my wife until the morning of day 7. In the interim I had busted my guts trying to get out faster and she (and other family and friends) had had very stressful time. She had alerted S&R, who had been about to commence the search in earnest when I got out.

This experience has given me reason to reconsider the SPOT protocols we use. I want my family to feel that I am safe, but I want to avoid a hectic, stressful time like this. I can be more careful to ensure the SPOT is not lost or damaged (it was attached to my shoulder strap at the time it went missing). Event so, there would still be some risk of being unable to activate it for non-life threatening reasons eg. batteries go flat, pack (with SPOT) is lost.

I am also reconsidering the frequency of the messages and the agreed time to elapse before contacting S&R. it's a tricky one, as if I did get into a life-threatening situation I would expect that I would be able to activate the emergency beacon feature; but there is a possible scenario where I am in need of rescue, but am unable to activate the beacon eg. due to unconsciousness.

Keen to hear from other SPOT users about your protocols.

Andrew

It's good to have backup I guess, but I'm not a fan of the protocol you set. The Spot has PLB facilities, why put the onus and stress on your wife.

I have always used the tracking feature. It costs $50 a year and friends and family can watch progress. If your OK message fails to get out, they can still see where you are and if you are moving, so the odd lost message doesn't raise stress. In your situation with the lost device, the tracking would either have stopped completely or stayed in the same spot. It might not have eased concerns, but it does at least give a point to start searching.

I carry mine on the pack strap but I also have a safety rope made from dyneema that tethers the device to another point on the harness. Haven't lost one yet.

That's an interesting scenario and one I will put some thought into. I hadn't really orgainsed anything with my wife if she hadn't heard from me. She know's some days I might not send out a message at all.
I always leave an itinerary stating what time I will be out of the bush etc and just treat the spot message feature as a bonus for letting people know I'm fine and the link to a location. If they don't hear from me assume I'm fine.
If I'm late by more than 24 hours and you haven't heard from the spot in a few days, Yeh then call S&R.
After all it is an electronic device that has every chance of failing. Good idea not to lean on the message feature too much. Just hope the SOS functions operates when required as that's the biggie.

I remember when Telstra dropped the SDMA network. One of my hunting properties had a few spots SDMA would let me call out. First trip on the new network and I had no phone function at all. My wife was just used to me calling and ended up contacting the property owner to see if they had seen me. Luckily they had seen me and I just copped a ear bashing when I finally got back into a receiption area I could call.

I'll watch this with interest as I would be in a simlar boat a lot of the time if no message was recieved. What if it died on day 1 of 10 etc ?? mmm.

Someone posted a link to free spot tracking on here..
Tracking really is the stand out for spot. OK messages are better than nothing (so long as you are ok) but i'd also baulk at making them a determining part of your contact advice.

This is something that Parks have struggled with over many years especially with out duty of care to staff. We now use multiple devices to give us options on contacting staff whilst in the field. Staff will generally carry at least two devices from the following range.

• Spot
• Spot with Tracking
• PLB
• VHF Parks radio
• Satphone
• Mobile Phone

In the past they may have only carried a single device.

It also depends on the area in which they are working (remote or on a established track, radio/mobile communications available or not) and if they are walking with others. In general solo remote walking does not occur for greater than a couple of days and will depend very much on the ability of the individual staff member.

Like you, we generally have required check in times and a period after which we will commence initiation of a "rescue", however it will generally be after attempts have been made to contact the staff member via the alternate means (phone, radio or satphone). All this is documented, along with an itinerary and signed by staff prior to the trip.

Has this system failed in the past? - YES and it has cost us helicopter time to find the staff members involved but that is a cost we bear as we know that all systems can fail. Most failures occurred using just single systems. Thankfully it doesn't happen very often and we learn from each "rescue".

Is there any reason why the Spot couldn't be put in an external pocket on your pack? It would seem that the only reason it was lost was due to careless placement (no offense).

photohiker wrote:It's good to have backup I guess, but I'm not a fan of the protocol you set. The Spot has PLB facilities, why put the onus and stress on your wife.

Actually it is my wife who has insisted on this, but your point is still valid.

photohiker wrote:I have always used the tracking feature. It costs $50 a year and friends and family can watch progress. If your OK message fails to get out, they can still see where you are and if you are moving, so the odd lost message doesn't raise stress. In your situation with the lost device, the tracking would either have stopped completely or stayed in the same spot. It might not have eased concerns, but it does at least give a point to start searching.

Makes sense

photohiker wrote:I carry mine on the pack strap but I also have a safety rope made from dyneema that tethers the device to another point on the harness. Haven't lost one yet.

The issue I had is that the SPOT device was ripped out of the carry case that comes with it. I don't recall there being any clipping points on the SPOT itself. In future, I would be inclined to store the SPOT inside my pack.

forest wrote:That's an interesting scenario and one I will put some thought into. I hadn't really orgainsed anything with my wife if she hadn't heard from me. She know's some days I might not send out a message at all.
I always leave an itinerary stating what time I will be out of the bush etc and just treat the spot message feature as a bonus for letting people know I'm fine and the link to a location. If they don't hear from me assume I'm fine.
If I'm late by more than 24 hours and you haven't heard from the spot in a few days, Yeh then call S&R.
...

Workable approach. However, I have found it necessary to vary my route a bit - as occurred on this last trip. What wouldn't change would be the intended date out and this could certainly be used as the basis of a emergency protocol. eg. Call S&R if no sign of me 24 hours after expected date.

tastrax wrote:This is something that Parks have struggled with over many years especially with out duty of care to staff. We now use multiple devices to give us options on contacting staff whilst in the field. Staff will generally carry at least two devices from the following range.

• Spot
• Spot with Tracking
• PLB
• VHF Parks radio
• Satphone
• Mobile Phone

In the past they may have only carried a single device.

It also depends on the area in which they are working (remote or on a established track, radio/mobile communications available or not) and if they are walking with others. In general solo remote walking does not occur for greater than a couple of days and will depend very much on the ability of the individual staff member.

Like you, we generally have required check in times and a period after which we will commence initiation of a "rescue", however it will generally be after attempts have been made to contact the staff member via the alternate means (phone, radio or satphone). All this is documented, along with an itinerary and signed by staff prior to the trip.

Has this system failed in the past? - YES and it has cost us helicopter time to find the staff members involved but that is a cost we bear as we know that all systems can fail. Most failures occurred using just single systems. Thankfully it doesn't happen very often and we learn from each "rescue".

Well I did take two of the above of this trip, but the mobile phone got, ahem, wetted out on day 1 after a dodgy river crossing. (Another lesson learned, this one about adequate water proofing.)

andrewbish wrote:

photohiker wrote:I carry mine on the pack strap but I also have a safety rope made from dyneema that tethers the device to another point on the harness. Haven't lost one yet.

The issue I had is that the SPOT device was ripped out of the carry case that comes with it. I don't recall there being any clipping points on the SPOT itself. In future, I would be inclined to store the SPOT inside my pack.

Mine did, one of the reasons I attached the tether was because I didn't trust the case.

Strider wrote:Is there any reason why the Spot couldn't be put in an external pocket on your pack? It would seem that the only reason it was lost was due to careless placement (no offense).

None taken. As mentioned in my original post, in future I would do exactly this, rather than use the should strap.

andrewbish wrote:Well I did take two of the above of this trip, but the mobile phone got, ahem, wetted out on day 1 after a dodgy river crossing. (Another lesson learned, this one about adequate water proofing.)

That's also a lesson we have learned the hard way - electronics and the wild environment seldom go well together. I am sure there are few threads on here about waterproofing equipment...but it all adds weight.

The PLB is almost the only thing that can be (more or less) guaranteed to get a signal through at the bottom of gullies and in thick forest. All the other systems require a better line of sight to their satellites, although the Sat phones may be as good. This is why I would really like a PLB that can send a signal that says "Don't send the helicopter.", while also givng my location.

This is for situations when your folk back home are panicking and calling in the S&R but you expect to make it out but are running late. This signal would save quite a few unnecessary searches.

I have had two trips when I would have liked this option, one when I should have been in phone range but my phone didn't work after being dunked in the river, so my wife was very concerned that I hadn't called in.

my mrs would use any lack of update as an excuse to cash the life insurance in....

in the reviews tab, 48 out of 138 reviewers said SPOT's are unreliable.

http://www.rei.com/product/784892/spot- ... enger#tabs

wayno wrote:my mrs would use any lack of update as an excuse to cash the life insurance in....

Serves you right for naming her as a beneficiary. You're not even married!

wayno wrote:in the reviews tab, 48 out of 138 reviewers said SPOT's are unreliable.

That's been my experience too. Mine hasn't been powered up for two years. I had the expensive tracking option (which would have to be a measure of the reliability of the thing.) Looking at the track later I saw extensive periods of no contact, GPS readings which were sometimes so ridiculously off it was laughable (I'm talking in the middle of the Tasman Sea.)

My conclusion was that the electronics in Spot2 weren't properly shielded, so if I wore it on one pack strap with the GPS on the other, the mere operation of the GPS was sufficient to interfere with the Spot2's GPS.

Out of curiosity, after reading this thread, I checked the Spot2 website, and happened to notice that they've been raising and sending invoices for the several years my device has been sitting in a box sans batteries - they reckon I owe 'em $300 - I reckon they can whistle for it. Useful to know, though ... the subscription contract is like an abusive gym membership ... not even ditching the CC and decommissioning the device is enough to give 'em the hint. Been waiting for a couple of days for them to get back to me.

Another trap for players is that if you have one, and you do manage to let the sub lapse, you *must* never turn it on again, or they'll hit you with more charges. Apparently merely being visible to the Iridium system incurs charges, but being off the Iridium system isn't enough for them to flag the device as inoperative. I'm not sure what happens if someone steals your Spot2. I suspect you're still liable.

My current thinking on this is that satphone would be best (but waaaaaaay too expensive.) There's a new device from delorme I think, which gives bidirectional comms (+1), just data, you still need a pretty expensive subscription (-1), it's light (+1), but it requires a smartphone to use it properly (-1) and the battery life might be a bit lower than one would hope as a result, I think you still, like spot, have to address your messages via the manufacturer's tied service provider (-2.)

OTOH, there's a tiny little low power satphone modem module which I've been thinking about getting, needs some engineering (read: soldering and programming) and a support processor (probably a raspi in the first instance) but it could be turned into something good. It's the thing delorme use. Still requires some kind of subscription, though.

Yes, I think the message is that what you are buying is not a device. You are buying a service.

There have been plenty of complaints about the Spot accuracy and messaging reliability. In my experience, many of the problems are not the fault of the unit. It is what it is. When it comes down to the wire, the user needs to understand the limitations of the device and use it accordingly. I used mine for 2 years and I never felt that the performance was poor. Yes, it missed the odd message or tracking point, but that is not a device or service total failure IMO. I wore it on my shoulder harness with a GPS on the other. Never saw any interaction between them (GPS is receive only, so no idea how the GPS could be screwing with the Spot2)

I have since upgraded to the Delorme InReach prior to the Aussie release. Glad I did that when I did to avoid the local price escalation (pure luck). It is a better engineered unit, battery life is really good and the ability to send messages to and from the smartphone is a bonus. Only downside for me is the slightly larger bulk. Ya can't have everything!

Colinm, good luck with your $300! Spot gives plenty of warnings about renewal and there is a process for termination of the contract. I don't think cancelling the CC is one of them!

I have been happy with my Spot 2. I have lost 1 OK message out of about 200 sent and that was in the bottom of a heavily vegetated steep sided valley. The GPS positions have always been accurate. I keep my Spot in the top pocket of my pack so it easy to get at. When not walking it is in my car should I be involved in, or come across, an accident on a remote road. I always carry a spare set of batteries on long trips or rely on the fresh batteries in my GPS and head torch. The Spot 2 will run on NiMH batteries in a pinch according a review on BPL.

My protocol with "Dear Leader" is one OK message a day in the evening. I also send an OK message at the start of my walk and when I get to the end of my trip. Raise the alarm ONLY if I have not been in contact (Spot message or phone) 24 hours after expected return.
If I am going to be late but am OK I send a Custom Message for each day I am likely to be delayed.
If I send a Help/Assist message it means that I need to be picked up somewhere other than my intended destination and to watch my OK messages until I hit a public road. If I am at my expected exit point (an OK message should have been sent) or on the road out then it means I need mechanical assistance with the vehicle.
If I need rescue I will hit the SOS button.

I think a lot of the reported problems are to do with people not letting the message sending process complete - it takes 20 minutes - poor choice of sending location and past issues with the satellite constellation.

Mark F wrote:I have been happy with my Spot 2. I have lost 1 OK message out of about 200 sent and that was in the bottom of a heavily vegetated steep sided valley. The GPS positions have always been accurate. I keep my Spot in the top pocket of my pack so it easy to get at. When not walking it is in my car should I be involved in, or come across, an accident on a remote road. I always carry a spare set of batteries on long trips or rely on the fresh batteries in my GPS and head torch. The Spot 2 will run on NiMH batteries in a pinch according a review on BPL.

My protocol with "Dear Leader" is one OK message a day in the evening. I also send an OK message at the start of my walk and when I get to the end of my trip. Raise the alarm ONLY if I have not been in contact (Spot message or phone) 24 hours after expected return.
If I am going to be late but am OK I send a Custom Message for each day I am likely to be delayed.
If I send a Help/Assist message it means that I need to be picked up somewhere other than my intended destination and to watch my OK messages until I hit a public road. If I am at my expected exit point (an OK message should have been sent) or on the road out then it means I need mechanical assistance with the vehicle.
If I need rescue I will hit the SOS button.

I think a lot of the reported problems are to do with people not letting the message sending process complete - it takes 20 minutes - poor choice of sending location and past issues with the satellite constellation.

Your protocol seems pretty workable. Thanks.

photohiker wrote:There have been plenty of complaints about the Spot accuracy and messaging reliability. In my experience, many of the problems are not the fault of the unit. It is what it is.

I don't understand how your belief could have any experiential basis, really.

photohiker wrote:I wore it on my shoulder harness with a GPS on the other. Never saw any interaction between them (GPS is receive only, so no idea how the GPS could be screwing with the Spot2)

Yeah, I wore mine on my shoulder harness, similarly.

Well, according to an EE mate of mine the GPS receiver can cause interference in other (improperly shielded) receivers. I presumed it had something to do with superhet mixing they do to extract the IF from the signal. So that's an idea of how it could be interfering, etc.

photohiker wrote:Colinm, good luck with your $300! Spot gives plenty of warnings about renewal and there is a process for termination of the contract. I don't think cancelling the CC is one of them!

Oh, I dunno ... nothing says "I am not paying you any more money" like cancelling the CC.

EDIT: fixed the typo in 'experiential'

colinm wrote:

photohiker wrote:There have been plenty of complaints about the Spot accuracy and messaging reliability. In my experience, many of the problems are not the fault of the unit. It is what it is.

I don't understand how your belief could have any exeriential basis, really.

Well, a better way of asking the question would be to say, how did you get this experience you speak of?

And the answer would be in discussing issues people have with the spot with those very same people, both personally and online. I have found that at the most extreme case they did not read the manual, thought they could just turn it on, push the ok button, wait a minute and turn it off. There are plenty of failure modes that can be introduced by the user that will make any shortcomings of the device irrelevant.

photohiker wrote:I wore it on my shoulder harness with a GPS on the other. Never saw any interaction between them (GPS is receive only, so no idea how the GPS could be screwing with the Spot2)

Yeah, I wore mine on my shoulder harness, similarly.

Well, according to an EE mate of mine the GPS receiver can cause interference in other (improperly shielded) receivers. I presumed it had something to do with superhet mixing they do to extract the IF from the signal. So that's an idea of how it could be interfering, etc.

First I have heard that, but an EE should know. As I said, not my experience. What brand and model was your GPS? I used mine with 5 GPS devices: Garmin Etrex Vista HCx, Satmap Active 10, TwoNav Sportiva, iPhone 3, iPhone4. Never saw the problems you speak of.

photohiker wrote:Colinm, good luck with your $300! Spot gives plenty of warnings about renewal and there is a process for termination of the contract. I don't think cancelling the CC is one of them!

Oh, I dunno ... nothing says "I am not paying you any more money" like cancelling the CC.

Sure, you are delivering a message to them, no problem with that. The message is: I'm going into default on the contract I agreed to. Bite me!

Hopefully, they will just let you off. Like I said, good luck with it.

photohiker wrote:In discussing issues people have with the spot with those very same people, both personally and online. I have found that at the most extreme case they did not read the manual, thought they could just turn it on, push the ok button, wait a minute and turn it off. There are plenty of failure modes that can be introduced by the user that will make any shortcomings of the device irrelevant.

As a programmer by trade, I RTFM. The device was used as specified, right up to mounting it so its face was vertical. The device's performance was poor.

photohiker wrote:What brand and model was your GPS? I used mine with 5 GPS devices

Garmin Vista Cx (note, not HCx.)

photohiker wrote:Colinm, good luck with your $300! Spot gives plenty of warnings about renewal and there is a process for termination of the contract. I don't think cancelling the CC is one of them!
Sure, you are delivering a message to them, no problem with that. The message is: I'm going into default on the contract I agreed to. Bite me!
Hopefully, they will just let you off. Like I said, good luck with it.

"Let me off." Heh.

There's no contract without a meeting of minds. I was completely unaware of the unconscionable auto-renewal clause, and didn't even read their emails because I presumed they were mere marketing. Frankly, I felt ripped off by the purchase, and wanted to just put it all behind me.

It'd be nice if they just 'let me off.' It might motivate me to 'let them off' my pursuit of them for their predatory contractual terms, and their purveying of a device which is neither of merchantable quality, nor fit for the purpose for which it's sold.

Unfortunately, I can't remember which local supplier I bought it from, so if they decide not to 'let me off', I'll start with an email detailing my concerns to every local retailer that sells them, and possibly a few toy stores as well.

my understanding is the satellites used with spots arent as numerous as the ones used for PLB's
i read somwhere they have an orbit lower on the horizon down under.

wayno wrote:my understanding is the satellites used with spots arent as numerous as the ones used for PLB's
i read somwhere they have an orbit lower on the horizon down under.

I thought Iridium was more numerous, but with a much smaller footprint. They have a lower orbit, so move faster, which is where the 20 minute signal acquisition time comes in (that's the orbital period of an Iridium Sat.) There were going to be many more of them, but the company went through lots of financial problems (due, in part, IIRC, to the space shuttle explosions increasing the cost of insurance for satellite launches) and so didn't deploy as many as they planned.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Iridium system. The low orbit means the satellites have a shorter life span, but a lower launch cost. The concept is great, but the Iridium business/charging model is poor, IMHO.

PLB satellites don't have to receive or retransmit much (distress signals) compared to Iridium (continuous voice streams.) The lower orbit of Iridium means you need less power to signal it, which means you can get away with lower spec transmitters.

Spot2, as a piece of electronic technology, is not very useful. Great concept, poorly executed.

wayno, that is correct. The Spot uses a different sat network to PLB's.

Colinm, are you talking about a Spot1 or a Spot2?

Spot 2 came out in late 2009, and was almost immediately subject to a recall due to battery consumption issues. Replacement units did not appear in the US until around March 2010 and Australian Stock was in limited supply from about April 2010 as they were flat out dealing with warranty replacements. I managed to import one of the re-engineered from the US in April 2010 (I had a long distance walk coming up in May so I couldn't wait for AU stock). Your $300 arrears suggests 2 years service after your first year - that last $150 wouldn't be due yet by my reckoning if it was a Spot2?

Tell us some more about this Sat module you are thinking of using, it sounds interesting. This is a Short Burst Data modem for the Iridium network, yes? raspi = Raspberry Pi?

PLB Satelites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLB#Satellites_used
Iridium network: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_Co ... stellation
Spot Network: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalstar#Satellites

i recall when iridium sat phones were first launched.
using big expeditions to advertise the devices potential,
seems the massive cost of using the sat phones killed its potential be taken up on a large scale

photohiker wrote:wayno, that is correct. The Spot uses a different sat network to PLB's.

Colinm, are you talking about a Spot1 or a Spot2?

Spot 2 came out in late 2009, and was almost immediately subject to a recall due to battery consumption issues. Replacement units did not appear in the US until around March 2010 and Australian Stock was in limited supply from about April 2010 as they were flat out dealing with warranty replacements. I managed to import one of the re-engineered from the US in April 2010 (I had a long distance walk coming up in May so I couldn't wait for AU stock). Your $300 arrears suggests 2 years service after your first year - that last $150 wouldn't be due yet by my reckoning if it was a Spot2?

Spot2 purchased around 07 August 2010. I presume I got one of the new units, don't know. I see four bills ... each predated to Jan, of 2010, 2011, 2012 ... which in itself doesn't sound right. I'll hit 'em with that too.

photohiker wrote:Tell us some more about this Sat module you are thinking of using, it sounds interesting. This is a Short Burst Data modem for the Iridium network, yes? raspi = Raspberry Pi?

Yes. http://www.iridium.com/products/Iridium9602.aspx ... its low power, needs a CPU to drive it. I was thinking a Raspberry Pi is ok consumer-grade CPU, low enough power. Essentially, was considering the feasibility of home-brewing a DeLorme inReach. The problem remains that you still need to deal with a very costly subscription service, this time with Iridium or a reseller.

PS: thanks for correcting my error in thinking SPOT used Iridium.

wayno wrote:seems the massive cost of using the sat phones killed its potential be taken up on a large scale

They're low low orbit, so the atmosphere drags on them, reduces their effective life, or maybe requiring them to carry more propellant to counteract decay (so increasing the launch cost.) I guess they gambled on reduced launch costs, but when the reinsurance industry got hit for billions after a few crashes (of satellites and of Space Shuttle) and space shuttle itself failed to be a really effective launch platform, and launch costs went up, their gamble failed.

Shame, really. OTOH, maybe now we'll use balloon-drones with miniscule mobile cells in them, or gnu radios, and just blanket the areas of interest with those ... like satellites, only much much lower altitude Actually, with software radio, you might be able to put really really long range low power spread spectrum repeaters around wilderness. Dunno. Something like it will happen, though.