Under prepared back packers in Cradle - will lead to deaths

[Mafeking09]

A while ago now we visited Scott Kilvert with some friends and their daughters. As usual we were well prepared for anything - food, emergency gear, clothing etc. Biggest shock was seeing people show up (OS back packers) who were vastly underprepared - no food, no tent, jeans, no sleeping bags, no adequate waterproof gear, no idea about where they were headed. They had been directed there by Parks because they had no idea about booking for the track or what was involved. It was not that cold but was sleeting. They were borderline and would have been candidates for hypothermia.

There will be a backpacker death/s in Cradle eventually. They see it as a back packing extension rather than a wild walk. Added to that, Parks do not do enough to stop people. They should have to sign a declaration that they understand that people have died in the area and they have all the correct gear.

[Bluegum Mic]

Agreed.

Mind you they seem to bumble along. Last time I was there, there was two lovely girls (French and French Canadian). Whilst both were experienced hikers, neither of them were aware of the sorts of climate to expect and were vastly under supplied (a simple Google search would have helped They thought tassy would be no different to the rest of Oz they had been traveling round (the warmer parts). They only had one to two season sleeping bags at best (you could hear their teeth chattering all night long). But at each hut they were given another piece by either the rangers or walkers. First night they were given fresh fruit n veg that someone had abandoned at waterfall valley. Next night the ranger gave them both thermals from the lost n found. On the last day we gave them all our left over fuel and food as they were headed on up pine valley and beyond. Perhaps they aren't so dumb. They got away with sub 10kg packs the whole trip whilst we were all up around the 20+kgs. They had a grand old time and sped past you very early in the day with their light packs on

[JamesMc]

Parks probably don't get to talk to quite a few of them. If I was a German or Israeli backpacker turning up to walk the Overland Track and I didn't have a permit due to either cost or lack of organisation, I wouldn't be parading myself in front of the rangers.

Not only that but another park I've been to ( in NSW) seemed to have a policy of " tell them nothing so that way they can't sue us". Don't know of Tas parks have that policy, but I have known them to be pretty evasive when asked for advice.

JamesMc

[corvus]

Parks probably don't get to talk to quite a few of them. If I was a German or Israeli backpacker turning up to walk the Overland Track and I didn't have a permit due to either cost or lack of organisation, I wouldn't be parading myself in front of the rangers.

Not only that but another park I've been to ( in NSW) seemed to have a policy of " tell them nothing so that way they can't sue us". Don't know of Tas parks have that policy, but I have known them to be pretty evasive when asked for advice.

JamesMc

James ,
Starting on the Overland Track in season it is very difficult to side step "rangers" as you cannot access the park without a Pass (unless you walk past the boom gates and chance your luck on the road or do the Boardwalk from the information center to Ronny Creek car park) next stop is Waterfall Valley which during the season is "manned" full time by volunteer wardens who normally will turn back anyone without a pass or who are under prepared and there are employed rangers between there and Narcissus who will check your pass so it is not as easy to sneak in.
corvus

[Ent]

Hi

It is frightening what you see. OS backpackers tend to be the worst. Because one makes it through the rest think that they can when chatting on their websites.

Weather is a huge wildcard. In Tassie most locals are conditioned to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. It is rather unusual to get minus five in summer but it can happen. On one walk at Dixon Kingdom the day started with shorts and t-shirt followed by driving rain which abated then the temperature plummeted with the pools of water on the tent turning into ice by 7.00pm. Next day you go looking for a place to swim.

Frustrating thing is you get the message out what is been prepared and a group will get fantastic weather conditions and think that you are lying about the place.

Parks are a disaster waiting to happen. They are very backward in risk management. Still in the "put up a sign" and everything will be cool 1990's OH&S mindset. I have seen no examination of "events" so no learning can be had from rescues or recoveries. Outside the hermetically seal environment of Parks businesses have had to examine "events" and near misses to work on means of improvement. Parks just stick their collective heads in a peat bog and then put up a cryptic sign such as be aware of trees attacking you. Near impossible to find sensible advice from them. As a local ringing Parks before a trip this is nearly always a waste of time. They either have no idea of the conditions or assume that you are a tourist so recommend a walk around Dove Lake or Russell Falls. It would be great to point people to actual cases of what is required and why with the "authority" of Parks behind this. No doubt there will be a big event and Parks will have the Corner's office read them the riot act and even Parks' personnel charged with negligence or worse. Frankly if in private enterprise you can face criminal charges for not taking the proper duty of care I can see no reason why Parks' personnel and management can hold themselves as protected species. Non-feasance largely died as a defense in the 1990's.

Sure walking is potentially dangerous and the terminally stupid will do as they please and I accept that Parks can do very little about those people. But what is needed is sensible advice on the conditions to be expected. Most people have not a clue what snow can do to trip times and where to expect it. Not advocating that you must have this and that as plenty on this site are safe enough with gear choices that they have tested and refined. But would like to see case studies of events and why a tent/shelter is a good idea. Why it is important to have a layer capable of fending off the wind and rain. Simple things like huts have no toilet paper nor mattresses through to the more serious stuff like what you need to avoid hypothermia and when it can happen. Luckily at Cradle most only have a cold and wet experience as once they make it to the hut generally someone helps them out.

We rock up with dry gear and warm clothing and having an enjoyable time often to find the refuges huddled around a heater covered in wet items. I now take spares of things like toilet paper as part of my social conciseness to help others out. Sensible preparation is not hauling huge loads or spending a fortune. Polar fleeces are light and cheap nowadays. While it is nice to have a decent rain coat and pants you can get something that will keep you alive cheaply. A decent pack liner is not expensive and can mean the difference between a warm dry sleeping bag and sodden freezer. Carrying stuff on the outside of the pack "protected" with garbage bags is not a good idea, etc, etc.

So endith the rant.

Regards

[ILUVSWTAS]

Hey Corvus, just a thought....If they are turning back the under prepared, why then do we see SO MANY under prepared people out there??

[Beeper]

Most of the Parks staff at the visitor centre are only selling coffees and souvenirs, the rangers who would advise walkers are thin on the ground, you would be lucky to find one. There are track rangers (one or two on the track at any one time) and hut wardens (volunteers) which can and do advise.

There is a duty of care for visitors to read all the signage and the notes on the OT website when making a booking. The OT will always have marginal walkers, 20 years ago I remember seeing a couple of elderly ladies wearing ugg boots and another group that only had garbage bags as raincoats. Most people that do the walk anyway are reasonably equipped.

[corvus]

Hey Corvus, just a thought....If they are turning back the under prepared, why then do we see SO MANY under prepared people out there??

Just a further thought from me to you how often have you been on the OT ILUVSWTAS in recent times ? and perhaps I should have said really under equipped for the OT as many doing this one are under prepared mentally despite being over equipped with all sorts of gear
corvus.

[Drifting]

You can get some really shocking info from the "Info Centre." I called the rangers one night from the Scout Hut, because there were three guys trying to get down from Marions about 2-3 hours after dark. By the time they got help, all had hypothermia, and were in a bad way. They had no waterproof clothing, and the visitor centre had said that was okay, because there was no rain forecast...

[ILUVSWTAS]

Just a further thought from me to you how often have you been on the OT ILUVSWTAS in recent times ? and perhaps I should have said really under equipped for the OT as many doing this one are under prepared mentally despite being over equipped with all sorts of gear
corvus.

This year, probably about 10 different occasions....

I can understand non bushwalkers needing to prepare mentally, but anyone who has done some bushwalking knows the OT is a pretty straight forward easy walk.... Is mental preparation REALLY needed??

[corvus]

Are we talking about those who are just doing day walks or setting out on the OT as they are "chalk and cheese" IMHO as I have observed a women in thongs heading up Hansons where I had just left knee deep snow plenty of people in street runners and cotton clothes on Marions with rain imminent and worst of all a mixture of that heading up Cradle we cannot be responsible for those who do not take heed of signs (or even verbal warnings ) on these day walks.
corvus

[Ent]

Hi Iuvswtas

I think the mental preparedness relates more to newbies. Most people with good old fashion absurdness sorry stubbornness can make it unless significant medical issue. But some freak out doing Marions. Easy is a lovely term. On a good day for many yes but I have had friends trapped at Waterfall Valley by snow over Kitchen Hut. Is it easy then?

In January I made two trips into WFV and struck the complete gambit of walkers including a blind man. The hut wardens were very good but as you know in winter the huts are not manned so what to expect is season dependent so views and experience can differ. So both views can be right. Overloading is an issue with some as is packs failing or been unsuitable for the volume carried.

[corvus]

Just a further thought from me to you how often have you been on the OT ILUVSWTAS in recent times ? and perhaps I should have said really under equipped for the OT as many doing this one are under prepared mentally despite being over equipped with all sorts of gear
corvus.

This year, probably about 10 different occasions.... is that ok sir???

I can understand non bushwalkers needing to prepare mentally, but anyone who has done some bushwalking knows the OT is a pretty straight forward easy walk.... Is mental preparation REALLY needed??

I think you have just answered your own question as most doing the OT are not experienced bushwalkers and I should have asked you have you done the full OT recently, and yes"my boy" that is a suitable number of times for you to have touched the OT this year
corvus

[sthughes]

Crikey 10 times! That's almost every weekend this year!

[ILUVSWTAS]

Crikey 10 times! That's almost every weekend this year!

Good maths.

[forest]

I was up at WFV last week just for the night. couldn't believe some of the walkers around. bumped a group of 4 at the top of the chain on the face track looking for there ''car'' I know it's bad but I couldn't help but laugh at such a generic question....
They were shocked when I asked which car park and had no idea where they were other than under Cradle Mt. They didn't know but I'm assuming they stumbled up the OLT from Ronney Creek CP and were heading back. best bit was one lady had a gucci handbag and 2 of them had sandles. I told them to go back the way they had come whe they asked about the track. I bet that chain and twisted tree root section would be bad in there gear. They said they just wanted to get back and stumbled off anyway towards the chain/rock face. I got to a point under cradle where I could see down and they were still at the top of the chain....., I did try to tell them but some people never listen.

I think nice weather at the car park can give people a false sense that all is well and they just trudge off into the sunshine towards that big distant peak.......

I'm not even listing some of the OLT walkers gear I spotted hanging in shopping bags from packs.......

[Azza]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-20/t ... ection=tas

Speak of the devil... more likely bad luck than under prepared.

[wayno]

see similar things in NZ. the hut wardens all have stories... people who only have an umbrella to ward off the weather, people expecting to buy food on the tracks, taking suitcases.... but be a lot of borderline cases of hypothermia out there.....
people doing the tongariro alpine crossing in flip flops,, only having summer clothes carrying everything in shipping plastic bags....
I once briefed some TV presenters about doing the crossing, i hope they were taking the *&^%$#! when they were intending to do the trip in summer gear even though they are heading for 1900m with zero shelter for the majority of the 20km trip.....

as far as rangers giving advise, DOC are banned from giving any advise on anything other than the DOC tracks after parents of an israeli that died taking a shortcut on teh routeburn pushed to have a doc ranger prosecuted for supposedly giving advise about a shortcut that isnt even supposed to exist...

[Overlandman]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-03/b ... ed/3930482

Latest on the under prepared
Regards Overlandman

[Ent]

Progress has been made. Parks is actually going to talk with the rescue services. It is a beginning but one long overdue. Hopefully facts will emerge and actions formulated. It will be a learning process and likely a slow one but good on them for starting it.

Cheers

[Overlandman]

I will never forget the Russian in Sandles who stayed the night at Kitchen Hut & arrived at Waterfall Valley Christmas morning with snow on the ground (in the 90's). In his broken english he said " you with boots, water stays in, me with sandals water flows out. I advised him that he should not proceed on the overland track due to the conditions & rougth terrain, he spent two days at Waterfall, he had walked a lot of miles in those sandals. I asked him to sign the hut diary at the end of my entry that I had advised him not to proceed and if he required rescuing that he would have to pay for it. When the snow melted, he headed South, walkers walking North a few days later advised me that he had done the ligaments in his ankle, heading down to Frog Flats, he was helped to Pelion where a Doctor walking with a private group rendered first aid, he then waited for two days due to poor weather to be flown out by the rescue chopper, thinking the whole time how he would pay for the rescue (which he did not have to contribute at all)
Regards Overlandman

[tasadam]

Not just bushwalkers, but photographers too it would seem.
http://www.australiantraveller.com/expe ... untain-tas

<snip>I quickly set up my tripod to capture this amazing sight.“I was thinking how fortunate I was that I had taken the wrong track... and then the guide markers disappeared under snow and I became hopelessly lost. I’d started the walk to Marions Lookout at 1pm; it was now 9pm and I was buggered. I sank to my knees and yelled, ‘Help!’ “To my amazement, a male voice replied, ‘Are you right, mate?’ He told me to walk towards his torch. “He introduced himself as Wes Moule and he was going moonlight skiing.<snip>

This was in July 2011.
No matter what, you should always know where you are, and where you're going.
Seems this guy was lucky.

[matagi]

While we are quoting from Australian Traveller -

"I love the breathtaking scenery in this magical part of the Tasmanian wilderness. I can easily spend time watching the wildlife, admiring the scenery and taking a few leisurely walks along the way"

This was apparently one Diane Byrne, from Tourism Tasmania talking about Lake Oberon.

Leisurely walks? Which part of the Western Arthurs is she referring to? The carpark at Scott's Peak? And people on the forum marvel at the unpreparedness of some overseas visitors - hardly surprising I would have thought if this is the kind of stuff TT is putting out.

[nakedape]

We took the father & sister inlaw down the OT a week or so back. Because of our experience these two novices had all the gear they needed & had done some training so that they would enjoy the track. Others that we ran into were lucky the weather did not turn foul - A group of french kids who had thin sleeping bags (supplementing with emergency blankets), no mats (bath towel instead), no water proofing to be seen, no stove nor adequate food (tinned pineapple and cornflakes), denim pants etc. A second group of Londoners with the smallest packs I've seen out there - they didn't have a tent, not enough warm clothes (one girl wore hotpants everywhere), not enough food & flimsy runners.

All walkers have a responsibility to ensure that they are prepared and understand what they are about to do - but in taking money from them, surely Parks has a duty of care to check that they have the basics!

N

[bailz66]

We recently did the overland (Feb 18 this year) and at the top of Cradle (Kitchen hut we didnt climb the actual mountain) it was freezing cold, blowing a gale and visibility was poor. We pushed on no problems as we were well prepared for anything.

About 3 hours later not far from the Barn Bluff turnoff we came across 2 girls who had just been turned back from Waterfall Vally. They were tired, a bit worried and carrying a small water bottle between the two of them. They were wearing shorts and tshirt. I imagine they got back ok in the end but it wouldn't have been a very fun journey.

3 days later we were doing the Mt Ossa hike and 3 hikers decided to attempt the climb wearing their full packs because they were out of water and "Planned to get water on Mt Ossa Somewhere" they were advised to skip it, go further on and collect water and come back but they went up anyway. They didn't come back down along the track (If they came down, we never saw them up there so assume they went cross country). They didn't arrive at the camp site that night and nor did we see them at any stage for the rest of the journey.

I have to agree that there could be a death up there in the near future

[Mafeking09]

This has been a great thread - didn't think it would spark this much conversation. I sincerely hope I'm wrong and we don't see a tragedy. I'm planning of doing the Overland Track this Christmas with my daughter, her friend and her Dad. It's a family rite of passage for us. A great gift. No doubt there will be more stories.

[nickthetasmaniac]

There will be a backpacker death/s in Cradle eventually.

I was under the impression that there'd already been several deaths in the Park, including backpackers..?