Should there be a group size limit in the Western Arthurs?

[doogs]

I have recently returned from a trip to the Western Arthurs where I had an unfortunate incident with a guide which has led me to ask the question should such groups be allowed into this area?
I will give a quick outline of the incident. My walking companion and I were walking the range basically from K moraine to A moraine. We arrived at Haven Lake after 5pm one evening to find 3 spare tent platforms and with myself having a roomy 2 man tent and my friend a 1 man I decided it would be a bit of a squeeze to fit both tents on one platform so we took one each (the platforms are too big for one tent and too small for 2, bad planning by parks?). The weather was pretty poor so we doubted anyone would be coming through the Beggary Bumps after this time of evening. I had a feed, crawled in my bag to get warm and fell asleep. I was awoken around 7pm by a guided telling me I had to move my tent as there were more folk in his group to arrive, no "sorry did I wake you" or "please". Reluctantly I got up in the rain and moved my tent over as best as I could which admittedly wasnt to the edge of the platform but about 1 foot across the platform. When the rest of the group arrived I had stayed up to ask the guide who was sharing the platform if he had enough room and he said he would be able to squeeze his tent on (very amiable bloke).
The next morning my companion and myself went on a side trip up Mt Aldebaran. On our return I noticed that my jacket had blown about 5m from the bush I had hung it on into a pool of water. With the wind being reasonably light at Haven Lake I assumed there was a freak gust. Whilst packing up my gear to move on to High Moor the rude guide walking past and verbally abused me for not moving my tent, it was then I realised how my jacket had ended up in the water.
Two days later I walked past the same group at Junction Creek and I hoped to get an apology from the guide but none was forthcoming.
I was chatting with a few bushwalking friends last night and one of them told me of an experience his friend had at Lake Oberon a couple of years ago that was very similar about a bullying guide. It was then I decided that this probably should be brought up on the forum to see if anyone else had any similar experiences.
I would love to hear anyone from Parks about their point of view about guided trips through this area as the camping areas really are not suitable for large groups and basically it is an accident waiting to happen taken inexperienced folk through this range.

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

Please name and shame the guided group. Is this particular guide the owner? If not, have you contacted the owner of the business about his behaviour?

If in fact he did throw your jacket into a puddle, he'd better watch out. Next time he does that, he might find himself walking out with a broken nose.

As for the original question, yes, they should be allowed... provided the guide is not a ****er, and provided the groups are kept really small (ie 3 + guide).

[Son of a Beach]

If you know (or can find out) who the guiding company was, it may be worth sending a detailed report of the incident to the manager of the company. Not to get the guide fired, but at least to get him to shape up. People should be held accountable for bringing their employer into disrepute (as well as simply not being offensive to fellow walkers in the first place).

[ULWalkingPhil]

How rude, This guide with that attitude should not be leading a group. Bad attitude to have. Luckily I've never encountered such people on my hikes, Guides I've come upon have all been very friendly.

[Miyata610]

Doogs, could you please post the dates for both encounters?

[Ent]

Hi

Having just done the Western Arthurs the issue of group size and available camping spots is an issue. Parks wants people to camp on platforms but they are in limited supply.

Large groups are a natural user of limited spots. The worst example I struck was a walking club that almost maxed out High Moor. At least there you can find plenty of space but with a walk to the water. Haven Lake we had to camp up on the ridge line.

On the OLT and the Walls the guiding companies have their own spots so not an issue. But on the WA space is limited. Commonsense is needed by all and a willingness to make the best of the space. At Haven Lake a group from Melbourne Uni gave up their spot and joined us so a group that had a bad time could have it a little easier.

My Nallo is huge so did find hard to pitch it on a platform but we managed three tents on one and two on another. Actually used this experience to justify the purchase of a MSR Nook so not to be such a platform hog.

Most guides I have struck have been great. Best let the company know. At times guides get hell from clients so might have been a bad hair day.

WA and user numbers is a big issue. Large groups are not on regardless of who they are.

Maybe we need commercial free areas or dedicated camping spaces for guided groups. In the WA this will be a real challenge due to the terrain. At Oberon Parks in trying to hide infrastructure have created a swamp that a few meters of board walk could solve. But no doubt some will complain that this is destroying the remoteness of the place.

Regards

[ollster]

Doogs - how large was the group, out of curiosity?

[stepbystep]

Doogs - how large was the group, out of curiosity?

+1, given there were 2 guides I assume there was a group of 5 or 6?

I don't see a problem allowing guided groups but PWS needs to provide facilities or not allow it to happen. I remember Haven's platforms were particularly small and there is no way they could handle a large group.
The guide in question needs a bit of a kick up the bum and if he did throw your jacket in a puddle, he should be sacked.

[ollster]

Doogs - how large was the group, out of curiosity?

+1, given there were 2 guides I assume there was a group of 5 or 6?

That is too large a group size for that area - full stop.

EDIT: in so much as there is just not enough space for a group that size, plus other groups.

[ILUVSWTAS]

To my knowledge at this point in time there is only one company taking groups through the WA's isnt there??

[ollster]

To my knowledge at this point in time there is only one company taking groups through the WA's isnt there??

Not one of these people??

http://www.twe.travel/tasmanian-wildern ... about.html

Or these?

http://www.tasmanianexpeditions.com.au/ ... &id=280526

[ILUVSWTAS]

To my knowledge at this point in time there is only one company taking groups through the WA's isnt there??

Not one of these people??

http://www.twe.travel/tasmanian-wildern ... about.html

No, well at least the WA's isnt in their list of available walks.??

[sthughes]

It's a difficult predicament, I can see Parks don't want to ruin the views by covering it with a hundred tent platforms, but at the same time platforms are in short supply, and at some camps so is any decent alternatives. When we did it a few weeks ago the only place where all groups fitted on the platforms was at Lake Cygnus, and it was chokas. Lake Oberon had two 10 people elsewhere, High Moore had at least a dozen that wouldn't fit and Haven had 5 of us up on the exposed ridge to the east (which is a lousy place to camp BTW).
But anyway yes I think guided groups should be allowed, I don't believe in excluding anybody from public areas. But a system of regulation like the OT and Walls where there are specific platforms for guided groups that they book, pay for and have first rights to kick people off of might be a goer.
And yes to second what Ent said, there are also a few small bits of maintenance that badly need doing, particularly at Oberon to stop the whole camp area turning into a quagmire. I don't really care what condition tracks in general are in, but it's a PITA having to go through knee deep mud to get from your tent to the toilet, and shallower mud to fetch water.

[ollster]

No, well at least the WA's isnt in their list of available walks.??

Dammit, I did a google search and they came up... I've also posted the Tas Ex people so doogs can ID the punk.

[doogs]

I brought this to the attention of the forum as it is more an issue about large groups going through an area that is not suited to them. The tent platform I was on at Haven Lake was probably less than 3m x 3m as my tent only just fit on it lengthways once attached to the nails, I think there area only 4 platforms there and the guided group had a party of 8. The younger guide who I shared a platform with told me he had a 15 hour day getting his clients ready and through the Beggary Bumps in pretty poor conditions so I can imagine that stress levels where pretty high and I also thought it may have just been that day but I gave him a chance to apologise when I saw him again at Junction Creek but he looked just as aggressive then. When people are paying around $4k to do this trip I understand the guides are under a lot of pressure to give the clients something special as they are paying for the experience. This guy was probably an excellent guide but to take his stresses out on others on the range is impossible ot justify.
Ent put it very well, there just is not the infrastructure on this range to deal with a group of about 4 or more. That is why I would like someone from P and W to put their 20 cents worth in.
South Aussie Hiker- I wasnt about to punch someone who carries a 40kg pack for a living. I didnt even think to retaliate as it would have put their groups trip in jeopardy.
I also really dont want to name and shame the company as anyone who wants to know could quite readily find the information themselves.

[stu]

I certainly think it is a little unfair that a guided group can monopolise camp sites or have any point of argument to the self propelled punter on this range.
I'd be pretty annoyed to arrive at any of the platformed sites along the WA's to find a large guided group there...a lot more so than just finding a large group of punters.
Perhaps they should have their own designated camp sites aside from the public platforms?
Of course, having said this, then there would be a whole can of worms regarding toilet facilities, leave no trace ethics etc. etc.
It's not an easy one....easier on the OLT where they have their own huts or hire out the group platforms, which again is a little monopolised.

I had an incident on the Mt Ossa track a few years ago where a guide was standing in the middle of the track with her group of 10 or so, just mingling about.
As they were standing around on the track we had to step off the track to get around them...
as soon as we did she let loose on us about stepping on a cushion plant (or I should say half a cushion plant as it had been worn in half by boot prints) & about recovery time for these plants etc. etc.
it was the most annoying & uncalled for diatribe I have heard in the mountains & i'm sure it was a tactic to make her look more professional / important in front of her clients.
It really changed my mood for the day & I was so angry at her arrogance.

I'm just glad I love off track walking so much; don't see anyone for days or sometimes weeks & so no confrontations.

[wander]

I do not think it is a guided group problem The same thing has and is going to crop up as groups regardless of their source be it guided commercial, church, scout, club, friend or other groups shuttle back an forth along the range.

As far as I can make out you have no evidence your jacket was thrown away as opposed to blown away. I can attest that in still air there are gusts that come and go in the WAs, as in most hills.

You could consider the situation from the point of a view of a group of people getting into the camp site late in the day for whatever reason, it does not really matter, to find that platform usage has been a bit inconsiderate to late comers.

I do not make any apologies for the rudeness you consider was dished out. I was not there. But my experience is when 2 different people tell the same story from their point of view they often think the other was the rude party. To some extent I usually find both parties could have performed better.

My point after all the waffle is it not a guided group problem but a people problem.

[stepbystep]

My point after all the waffle is it not a guided group problem but a people problem.

Think I agree with you there wander, but knowing doogs I can guarantee he would have been neither rude nor aggressive, the guide needs a damn good talking too.

[ollster]

knowing doogs I can guarantee he would have been neither rude nor aggressive.

Seconded. He's English, or something. Very polite. He's probably apologise for getting blood on the guy if he took a beating.

[Penguin]

I do not think it is a guided group problem The same thing has and is going to crop up as groups regardless of their source be it guided commercial, church, scout, club, friend or other groups shuttle back an forth along the range.

I was with sthughes and ent on the recent WA adventure. The problem is with larger groups. There is limited space at many camp sites and they dominate.

High Moore had people every where because there were two groups of six going in out direction, one from Uni of Melb, and a group of 9 (?) from a Perth walking club going in the other direction. Even if they were nice, they struggle to be together and not to hog space. We had the reverse experience. We asked asked the Uni of Melb group to free up a camp site at Haven Lake for a group that was coming in late and that had a very tough day. They did so with good grace and joined us up on the saddle for a very windy and uncomfortable night.

The WA's does not have the infrastructure for large numbers and large groups. Large groups must be aware of the effect they have on the smaller groups around them. If not, black list them somehow. No if's and no but's.

[doogs]

It has been brought to my attention by someone who knows the group that was on the Arthurs last weekend that the fellow who I mentioned above was in fact not a guide. He just appeared that way with his actions and the fact he had his own one man tent with him. I am very happy that he wasn't a guide as all the other guides that I have met are very amiable and professional people.
As other people have mentioned it is large groups rather than just guided groups that cause problems on this range so I apologise for singling then out.

[Ent]

The younger guide who I shared a platform with told me he had a 15 hour day getting his clients ready and through the Beggary Bumps in pretty poor conditions so I can imagine that stress levels where pretty high....

Now that is the three hundred pound gorilla in this debate. Not sure what vetting process guiding companies use but there is a huge difference between a summer walk on the OLT or trip into the Walls compared to the Western Arthurs. As long as you have no underlying health issues the OLT is immensely doable with a sympathetic guide but this does not IMHO apply to the WA. The OLT with long summer days and dropping side trips means plenty of time to get through to the camping spots with more than a few places to camp if even this is not possible. The run over the Beggary Bumps is not one that I would like to be forced to do with time constraints and people of unknown ability. Some days it is better to stay put at High Moor and play cards. I will take my hat off to the guides that get people through in those conditions. Also turns out it is one of their clients that was the issue so not the guides. As people, guides seem to have incredible stamina, patience and good humor with a willingness to help out.

Parks make suggestions on group size limits but again what is reasonable for the OLT is not reasonable for the Western Arthurs. Eight is a large group given the small space available for camping in the WA. It will not be easy for Parks but the WA is being loved to death. It is seen by many as "challenging" walk so getting increasingly targeted by people for the Bear experience. Also, it does not have the fees of the OLT. Bit likes that the Walls in now been flooded by OLT refugees.

As raised by Penguin we struck a walking club of bigger size than the guided group so the issue is big groups. What is a big group depends on the walk. Taking twenty into Scott-Kilvert is quite acceptable while eight is pushing the WA campsite.

Regards

[ollster]

the fellow who I mentioned above was in fact not a guide.

So for clarity, was he part of the group, or a rogue walker?

[doogs]

I saw him with the group at both Haven Lake and Junction Creek, he was carrying an A4 sized chopping board and a 20 litre pot to be washed but I am making no assumptions. He may have had a severe tapeworm problem and being at both places could have been a coincidence.

[MJD]

The person in question was part of the group. Pretty sure it was a party of 8. It's worth reiterating that the platforms at Haven are a bit small. Another 30cm in each direction would make all the difference.

[ULWalkingPhil]

It has been brought to my attention by someone who knows the group that was on the Arthurs last weekend that the fellow who I mentioned above was in fact not a guide. He just appeared that way with his actions and the fact he had his own one man tent with him. I am very happy that he wasn't a guide as all the other guides that I have met are very amiable and professional people.
As other people have mentioned it is large groups rather than just guided groups that cause problems on this range so I apologise for singling then out.

Good to hear it was not a guide. Like I said before, guides I've seen on some of my treks are great people. Very friendly, even shared a coffee with me.

[Nuts]

I think they probably should, so long as the company watches the rules (as cumbersome and limiting as they appear..) as closely as their bank balance..(?)

Good to (kinda) meet you guys doogs.. Cyn thinks you sounded more like a pom lol..and I thought that was bear grylls with you but I guess we were all in a bit of a hurry.. We were actually expecting two others who apparently piked out haha..

What is the protocol for meeting baggers on a mission??

Anyway... Re this..Yer I thought the timing would clash when I heard your trip plans.

[doogs]

Good to kinda meet you guys too! MJD makes bear grylls look like a boy scout I tthought you were a Geordie?

[JamesMc]

If they can run guided groups up Mt Everest than they can do it on the WAs. This is an issue of everybody having to be nice, and willing to squeeze in.

A related issue in my mind is that the hardening of the WAs is ' out of balance'. The track has lots of capacity but the camp sites have little. It wouldn't hurt to have a few more camping platforms.

JamesMc

[Nuts]

Good to kinda meet you guys too! MJD makes bear grylls look like a boy scout I tthought you were a Geordie?

Ha ha, Yes I am , or was..
I guess that translates to a rough *&%$#! aussie after 30 (or so) years here
They were actually both mean't as compliments (lol).. I had to look twice at mjd (from a distance) ha ha.

Well done btw (though we have a photo of (you guys tagging the 'summit' and) a rock mound that unfortunately looks a wee bit higher than where you were )