Up New River to Federation

[Selig97]

Just a sec while I strap myself in, put on my helmet and flak jacket.

I have read with interest this thread and comments made and personally find it disappointing that so many fall back on the old 'I told you so'.

“There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, and learning from failure.” - Colin Powell.

I could go on and find a lot of other quotes that also aren't mine, but I'm sure most of you would be as familiar with them as I am.

Whether you believe the planning and or experience of Dave and his mates was sufficient for taking on this expedition is beside the point. Dave and his mates believed that they had completed their research, (discussed their plans with some users from this forum), planned for what they would require and may run into, and were physically and mentally fit. Why shouldn't they have a go? Isn't this how we gain experience, by doing not just succeeding?

You might say "because the risk to other lives who might have to rescue them". Yet I read that some of the users to this forum carry an EPIRB. Doesn't that put you in the same position, that someone could die having to rescue you one day? After reading some users feedback, I might think that with all your experience and planning that you wouldn't need an EPIRB.

Anyway, maybe as a result of your own experiences, or chatting with other people you wouldn't attempt this walk, but is that justification for Dave and his mates not to try?

Years ago before Google Earth became available allowing us to sit in the comfort of our home on the computer reviewing the country, we would get a map of the area, prepare gear based on what we might expect, seek out people who have been there before for feedback and plan our trip. Isn't that what Dave has done?

Because someone says that they wouldn't do it, does that mean we shouldn't try? Why wouldn't these other people do it? Have they already tried and failed or just thought it looked to difficult to even attempt, or just heard someone say it's too hard or dangerous?

To say that Dave and his mates are lucky to be alive, well I don't understand this comment. Dave planned escape routes, and again these may be different to routes you may have planned, but planned all the same. And, the fact that they had an EPIRB (whichever version, I have no experience) tells me that there was never a reason for them to have a fatality unless pride became an issue in using it. So escape routes they had. Lucky I think not.

People all around the world are still planning, researching various expeditions, some of these cost them their lives while others make it. I agree with Brett on this, that our view depends on whether they make it (top effort, well planned etc) or they don't (Should have listened to advice, planned better, had my level of experience).

Look at Steve Fosset, who with all his planning and resources, didn't suceed in his solo around the globe baloon flight until his 6th attempt. Should he not have tried because of the potential dangers? Or because he might need rescuing?

I am not trying to say Dave and his mates were right or wrong in their attempt / planning or anything else because I wasn't a part of their team.

I think that Dave and his mates are now in the premium position to offer up their experiences to others who may be interested in walking this area. Why, because they have been there. But people will always make up their own mind regardless to what advice you, I or anyone else offers up.

And before you all fire back at who am I and what do I know, I haven't done any bushwalking for a lot of years but at some stage in the near future will be getting out to do some. I wouldn't say I have a lot of experience, so I read these forums to see what feedback other users have on different aspects of bushwalking. What gear is good, info on tracks etc, to bring myself up to speed. To learn from the experiences you people have had to ensure I prepare the best I can for what I might expect on what ever endeavour I set out on.

In the end though, I will make plans based on findings from research that I have done, feedback from people who have actual experiences in the areas I am looking at, my physical condition, mindset etc.

Should I attempt it if others disagree? (Who knows the motivation or fears of others but they themselves? )

Last edited by Selig97 on Fri 11 Dec, 2009 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[alliecat]

Alliecat - that last "grow up" comment is out of line for these forums, whether the other's post was appropriate or not. Please refrain from that kind of personal dig in future.

No problem Nik - I agree that it was out of line.

But it's much closer to the line than what I was really thinking

I guess Dave will have killfile'd me anyway and probably wont even see it. I just wanted to get across (in public) the point that the trip was a failure due to lack of skill and preparation. A failure that could easily have ended in tragedy. Youth and confidence are not substitutes for skills, experience and preparedness.

Everybody makes mistakes. If you survive them and learn from them, you gain wisdom. I hope that Dave does learn from his mistakes in this experience.

Alliecat

[alliecat]

To say that Dave and his mates are lucky to be alive, well I don't understand this comment. Dave planned escape routes, and again these may be different to routes you may have planned, but planned all the same. And, the fact that they had an EPIRB (whichever version, I have no experience) tells me that there was never a reason for them to have a fatality unless pride became an issue in using it. So escape routes they had. Lucky I think not.

An EPIRB is not an escape route. It is for emergencies. If they hadn't called in the chopper they could well have died - by there own admission they had no way out and lacked the strength and supplies to wait until they could figure out some escape plan. They were literally carried out of the bush by search and rescue services. Since nobody was injured and there were no extraordinary external circumstances (extremes of weather and so on) the fact that they were carried out means that the trip was a failure. And it failed because of an over-estimation of ability. They were lucky because it is possible that the SPOT signal might not have got through (it's not actually an EPIRB - closer to a satellite phone). They were lucky that the chopper could get to them.

Seeking adventure is one thing. Going off unprepared and unskilled is another.

In the end though, I will make plans based on findings from resarch that I have done, feedback from people who have actual experiences in the areas I am looking at, my physical condition, mindset etc.

How about skills and experience? Physical condition, mindset, etc. are all very well, but if you have practically zero skills in the area then undertaking an activity like this is foolish.

Look, suppose I wanted to sail solo around the world. Suppose I was young, fit, determined, and confident that I could overcome the mental and physical challenges. I should go give a whirl, right? Only one problem: I've only ever sailed a small dinghy on the Derwent. I lack the skills and experience to even begin to undertake the task. And that was the case here.

Whether you like it or not - experience matters.

Alliecat

[ILUVSWTAS]

Yup, as someone said to me it's like trying to fly an airbus before learning to fly in a small plane first!

[Taurë-rana]

alliecat, I disagree with you when you say it was a failure due to lack of preparation - it appears that they did a great deal of preparation, and nobody did get killed and it wasn't a disaster because they were sensible enough to take a SPOT with them. Now, not taking a SPOT or PLB in this day and age on such a trip would seem to me to be a lack of preparation, or bravado or something. I think they did as much preparation as they believed they needed to do, but perhaps underestimated/couldn't believe how difficult the trip might be. It sounds like other than the lack of experience in off track walking in the SW, they were very prepared.
In other words I agree with selig97.

How many of us know just what we are capable of? How do we find out unless we push ourselves? I'm sure there are many people who do the Overland Track who are less prepared and more foolhardy than these fellows, but they get away with it most of the time. Were they more foolish than me, with two kids who need me, choosing to ride a motorbike, knowing the risk of injury and death? I prepare as much as I can, but I know it's more dangerous than driving my car.

I'm just curious, why are you so angry with them - what have they done that is so bad?

[flyfisher]

Alliecat, where were you when Dave was seeking advice, no posts from you,eh.
This type of attack on a bloke makes me sick.
Anything really constructive to add? Perhaps better to say nothing as I am finding your comments tedious in the EXTREME.

ff

[Azza]

People have been going on exploratory trips into the south west for last 100+ years.

EPIRBS and PLB's are a relatively new invention, the question I have on my mind would having access to an EPIRB/PLB influence whether they would have attempted the trip in the first place? Just like any piece of equipment is could fail or the signal not be picked up.
Is having the safety blanket of a get out of trouble free card increasing peoples willingness to take extras risks they normally wouldn't?
Obviously its an important piece of equipment and you wouldn't embark on this type of trip without it.
But at the same time I'd want to know that my own skills were 100% up to the task.

[PeterJ]

Only just been alerted to this forum topic. I have been bushwalking in Tasmania for many years and have a pretty good appreciation of the conditions in the various parts of the state. Once, perhaps in the pre PLB days, I would have expected only experienced parties to be out in the country where they were rescued. That a group of novices was there is quite surprising and I expect there could be quite a bit of amusement in the ranks of the old brigade over this saga.

I feel this episode is symptomatic of what has happened to the bushwalking fraternity. We have some who now go into a panic if they so much as lose sight of a track and another lot who reckon they can take off on hard walks without gaining experience or knowing what the country is really like. It also seems there are a lot of people who think that you just press the PLB button or phone for help if things get tough, and there are numerous examples of this.

[ollster]

I'm a bit confused as no moderation had occurred in this topic before you posted this. Merely a couple of very tame warnings. Is this really a problem for anyone?

In my opinion "take it easy on Dave and his mates" is moderating, although fairly passive. i just meant that harsh criticism is warranted in this case (but I agree, no personal attacks).

With the comments on PLBs above, I would say that in planning trips such as this, plan them as if you *did not* have a PLB or GPS. And then think to yourself if you really could do them.

[Jellybean]

Alliecat,

I have to agree with the comments that have been made by others above. While I appreciate you have strong views about this, you have a really unfortunate way of expressing yourself. You don't have to launch insulting, personal attacks to get your point across. As a consequence, some of your comments have said a whole lot more about you than they have about Dave and his mates.

As I think Nik mentioned earlier in this thread (although in relation to swearing), by taking a bit more time and thought in your responses you can make your point just as (more) clearly than through obscene language or personal insults.

Cheers,

JB

[wander]

It's all got rather academic.

They had a *&%$#! good go and got out without injury (almost, tick bits can last for years) and gave the SAR folks a bit of exercise and a good reason to go to work.

They coulda done lot's things different for better and worse. But's thats for the next wander.

So now it would be good to see the pics and map mark up and comentary, in due course. I know how long it can take to put a trip report together.

[alliecat]

Just a quick note to explain why I took the tone I did. It's because I think it is necessary to get across in public the point that this was an extremely foolish trip undertaken by unprepared, inexperienced people, who apparently (judging by Dave's subsequent posts) have learnt nothing at all from the experience. At no point has Dave admitted that they were under-skilled and under-prepared, or even that the trip was a failure. He blames "unexpected events" that were only unexpected because they were lacking in skills and preparation. The fact that he "bins" any criticism shows that he has no desire to learn from this, or even accept that he stuffed up and put his and his mates' lives in danger.

I want anybody who reads this thread to realise that this was not a bunch of brave young lads out on a big adventure, it was a foolish excursion by inexperienced walkers that could easily have ended in tragedy. This is how people die in the Tasmania wilderness. I find it really strange that people think the trip wasn't a disaster when they were literally carried out of the bush by search and rescue. Is it only a disaster if somebody dies or gets seriously injured?

I didn't comment before the trip because others, much more experienced than I, already had. And the advice was ignored. And before the trip we had no idea just how naive and inexperienced Dave was. As for "prepared", as I've said, nothing went wrong, yet they still had to be rescued, so how exactly were they "prepared" for the trip?

Read the thread. Dave was insulting to me a soon as I criticised his skills and preparation. Apparently that is okay though...

[stu]

When Dave called me as part of his research and preparation for the trip, I did try to dissuade him from this route. I queried the group's experience, and Dave listed some good tracked walks he had completed. It was clear that he was very determined to attempt it, so we talked on the phone about the area and options. Although his mind was made up, he was eager for info. Dave had also read the Wild article, in fact he's reproduced a page of it in the first page of this thread. If you look again at that page you can see that there is some pretty clear advice on the expected terrain, including the difficulty of steep gorges and chasms. I felt that the most probable outcome would be an honourable retreat via the SCT after realising that the trip was too hard for their current level of ability and experience. I enjoyed our conversation and Dave seemed like a basically decent bloke. He mentioned that he had sought advice on this forum, which prompted me to check in and post the further advice about escape routes being more likely than the actual attempted route. With hindsight, I probably should have been more blunt about the likelihood of failure and the difficulty of some of the identified escape routes.

The extraction point is north on the Gibraltar Ridge. The group had therefore only just reached the difficult part of the river. They were close in a direct line to an escape over Mt. Bobs. Retreat to the SCT would have been my preferred option from Gibraltar Gorge. Just hard work either way.

J.

For those of you that continue to argue that no solid advice was given before this trip, please read the above comments from jmac once again - he tried to dissuade them from the route & queried their experience - if they didn't listen to this advice from someone he directly sought advice from (& someone who is probably more qualified than almost anyone to give said advice in this region) then they weren't going to listen to anyone else, they were going to attempt it irrespective.

As for escape routes, I don't think they truly studied them as was suggested & they weren't even into the most rugged (gorge) sections of the trip when they were extraced. With so many provisions left I don't understand why they didn't wait a few days & try to retrace their steps to the SCT; everyone with the earned experience knows that retreating through your previous scrub bashed route is quicker than a fresh bash, they could probably have retraced their steps (after said flooding had receeded) much quicker than it had taken them to get there & once back to the relative safety of the SCT escape is really only academic, once on a track provisions could have been rationed as required to get home.

Would the other 2 totally inexperienced (quote) members of this party been able to suffer further days of intensive scrub? Not likely by the sounds of it. Dave may have been able to continue on for the duration of the planeed trip on stubborness alone but I'm not convinced by what i've read of the other 2 in the group. Maybe you need to start your ' SW apprenticeship' with more hardened &/or experienced walkers Dave?

As jmac said:

I would not contemplate attempting this route with any but my toughest partners.

Stu.

[Son of a Beach]

Dave was insulting to me a soon as I criticised his skills and preparation. Apparently that is okay though...

Please don't presume to know what the moderation team thinks is OK and what is not. Dave was in fact the first person to be actively moderated on this topic. He's had two posts deleted completely. It's since been evened up on the other side, with two deletions (one of which was partial).

Note that I don't edit or delete every post that I think is out of line, but the worse it gets the more I'm likely to edit and/or delete it. In some cases I even PM people and ask them to make changes themselves rather that do it to their posts.

You guys (on both sides of this debate) all need to cool off a bit. I really don't want to have to lock this topic as it has some excellent content in it. However, if breaching the rules continues, I will have no other option. I don't necessarily disagree with any of the opinions expressed here, but you guys need to find ways of expressing them in such a way that doesn't insult or attack the person(s) you're writing about.

[Dave Bremers]

wow alliecat! go back and read my posts where I am appreciative for pretty much everyone's criticism except your assuming and insulting personal attacks.

An EPIRB is not an escape route

no one said it was.

you are the king of misintepretation and misquotation. where's this 'killfile' button?

That being said, no point kicking the corpse for too long...

I'm going to take this as a dark-humoured way of saying you'll let up eventually. Rather than an analogy for kicking people when they're on the ground. Or dead .

Brem, I was kind of feeling bad for you and your mates so was trying not too sound too harsh, but at the end of the day I do think it was slightly arrogant/ignorant of you to take this misison on. Off track walking in Tasmania is like nowhere else in Australia in my knowledge.

Im really getting over this whole debate though , whats done is done and firstly comes you and your groups safety, and I think everyone here is glad you guys walked out and were not carried out or worse never found (there are lots of missing bodies still in the SW) I think you should just acknowldge to some of us here that you were a bit ambitious and next time you'll be much more considerate about the routes chosen.

To assume arrogance from a geographical route when you have little idea about the true story and/or experience and skills is a step to far. Ambitious? Yeah I agree, definitely ambitious. More planning and preparation is the answer for me.

Stubowling: many of the answers you seek are in my previous posts, and some of your assumptions are from as little as a single line of text. I think there are so many posts here people aren't bothering to go back through them all (and who can blame them? there's over 130)

[Dave Bremers]

Thanks selig97 very much appreciated.

[ollster]

More planning and preparation is the answer for me.

AAARGH! NO! All the prep in the world won't help when you have little experience (alothough A LOT more now). DO MORE SHORTER EASIER WALKS!

[Son of a Beach]

I would agree that experience is the most important thing with off track and/or remote walks. Moving up very gradually to the longer more remote/difficult walks.

I'd say he's got a lot more experience now that he had a few weeks ago. Although more probably wouldn't go astray? (Not knowing what his previous experience actually was).

[ILUVSWTAS]

To assume arrogance from a geographical route when you have little idea about the true story and/or experience and skills is a step to far.

Wernt you the one who said your fellow walkers had no off track experience and you had very little?? Im sorry if I got this wrong......

[Ent]

Yup, as someone said to me it's like trying to fly an airbus before learning to fly in a small plane first!

O-boy hate to break your metaphor but many military pilots (one of the main sources of commercial pilots) qualify in jets as their first aircraft. Any flying in small plans is merely done to keep the individual's interest up in flying as they slog through endless hours of academic study. Could also point out that small planes are centre stick and Airbus is side stick along with a few other things but what the heck "experts" once believed you could not fly a plane with a closed cockpit

What is experience and what is adequate? It could be argued that Mount Everest is so different from normal climbing that you are not experienced until you climb it. Also an experienced Mount Everest climber is the person that has not yet died on the mountain given the horrendous toll in life that peak has claimed. It is amazing the "experts" in the experience level of the team given they have never meet them, as well as knowing the experience that team required (for a specific trip give that they have never done the specific trip themselves). I congratulate JMAC for the proactive approach he took so respect his take on the situation but as for some As for the hanging jury, ghee wait for the wheels to fall off and then hoe the boots in, I am with Flyfisher on his view of the people doing this.

Various readings on "trial blazing" in Tasmanian and Australia indicates failure is generally most likely outcome first time out regardless of how experienced the team is. Also the fact that the route has no recorded success suggest it would be near impossible as if it was easy it would have in all likelihood been done before. Yes the more experienced the team in the area and type of terrain the higher the success rate but given the people on the Cannibal Run seriously considered pulling the pin at one stage confirms the challenges when attempting significant cross country walks. Would our hanging posse be condemning them for making that pragmatic decision to bail out?

Ok, I accept that remote off track walking in Tassie requires extensive experience gained by steady incremental steps and fully expect that people are concentrating on that aspect and no doubt Dave and his team have been mulling this over as should any future team. Any comments on the required preparedness and experience are valid but unless you personally know the walkers I simply can not see how you can apply this to the team. Am I missing the mind reading ability processed by others along with the gift of twenty-twenty hindsight? Nice to see that the shoot first ask question later judges did not even wait for a detailed report but then again they were building the gallows even before Dave's team was confirmed as the one rescued. (Do I hear the scramble for deleting posts?) The sensible thing should have been to wait for the report and then make comments or ask questions before making damning statements. Such a serious prejudicial approach sadly diminishes the otherwise worthwhile information that could have been brought into the forum.

I could accept the Southern Confederation robust view on the validity of the trip as legitimate but can never accept the lack of internal validity of their subsequent attacks on the use of the SPOT device. If Dave's team were so out of their depth, as put by the Confederation, then why put the position that Dave's team should have surrendered the high ground and attempted a trek down a gully and up a mountain to avoid using the SPOT? Surely such a decision would have compromised what turned out to be a rather routine extraction given our hanging jury believed that the team should not have been there in the first place, so were likely not to be able to achieve the goal set by the Confederation for self extraction? Please, you can not have it both ways. Do the espousers of such a view even consider that the terrain may have had features making such a task impossible within the time constraints? We have read in other threads people spending a day to get through two hundred metres of scrub. Also no consideration appears to be have been given to any geographical features that might have stopped the team. There is a huge difference between a rugged tough walker and a rugged tough walker that can rock climb. I have no idea what was Dave's team experience in this aspect nor does the proposer of such an escape route but yet we get hums? from that quarter why Dave team did not attempted his route.

I find very disturbing the questioning of the decision by the team to us the SPOT by using armchair methods to pick an escape route. Surely Dave's team standing in the ridge looking around would be the best judge of their experience and condition against the terrain they where actually looking at? Ok hanging heroes you might have made it but that is not the point, the point is could Dave's team made it, and the answer they came to was no. Please have the common humanity to accept their decision and dispense with escape routes dreamed up looking at a map and practising virtual knowing head nods.

In 1941 Germany lost the second world war when USA entered the conflict and their army was ground down in USSR so should have looked for a way out but a mad leader in a safe bunker ranted and raved for almost four more years. Our arm chair experts appear to be proposing that Dave's team should have pushed on simply because they had food left. I see our armchair retrospectionist much in the same light as the other "leader" as such any attempted could have placed the team in a much worst position for rescue and by the way is the weather down there so fickled that a week could go by before a chopper could have entered the area so forcing the use of ground teams? Sounds like a very foolhardy "escape route" plan to me. Oh and as for the old explorers, plenty of them died, or walked out near death door, and only did this because they had no other option. Um? maybe our posse where looking for a real life repeat of the Cannibal Run? Was that event a successful self extraction? O'well at least there was a good hanging at the end of that trip so would have kept our jury happy.

As our moderation team knows I hate with a passion controls on debate by rules and other means but carved into every screen should be the rule, "do not question people's decisions to activate rescue beacons in situations that could reasonably be expected to otherwise result in serve outcomes".

However the above rule does not mean that a lively debate around people using a beacon as a crutch to push the envelope beyond what they otherwise would have attempted should not be had. Nor should it stop the posting of escape options and discussion on the merits of them. Trouble is our Kangaroo Court have lost creditability to put such a case as they are too busy enjoying themselves "kicking the corpse". Given the frequent comments that they are weary of the debate they show remarkable resilience in the lack of resilience to do as they say

I sincerely hope that Dave does post the report as this will answer many questions and serve as a guide to others seeking to push the envelope of their abilities. Dave just considered the Southern Confederation in the same light as the rock throwers that turn up in barbaric times to an execution. In most places of the world times have changed but sadly in a few parts thing have not, but do not let the few comprise your courage to post a report in an open forum as normally such reports treated with respect by the vast majority, rock bangers aside.

Cheers Brett

[PeterJ]

[quote=..... I really don't want to have to lock this topic as it has some excellent content in it. However, if breaching the rules continues, I will have no other option. .

Nik, you may have noticed some recent comments under other topics about how this is a good site and so much credit must go to you your moderators for that. So I would hate to see this or other topics get closed, I would rather that items get altered to avoid this. Also it has brought a few people out of the woodwork (Jmac for example - noticed a look alike too John) which is good for the forum.

[eggs]

What an amazing thread.

I have been reflecting a bit on the issues this raises. There have been a number of threads along similar lines - so the forum is in the midst of a learning curve.
We had the Western Arthurs Solo walker exchange - then the "short trip to Vanishing Falls on our way through the Arthurs" jest - now there is a serious discussion about how hard an out of town party new to the Arthurs can push through them in 4 days starting this weekend - we will wait for the back end report on this one!
We also had the "discussion" when a few school kids went missing in the Central Plateau - after we had all wished them well on this forum.

Some of the things that I have been considering:
1) The difference between the days of the pioneers and our days of popular eco adventure.
The old timers had various techniques - apart from heavy gear that no one would use today - they had air drops, burn,bash & bury, fires and machettes. They also knew that there was no easy escape route or emergency rescue. So they would have pitched their pace to match these conditions. A lot of effort in securing water sources - although draining Marsh Flies seems a little on the edge - And a never say die attitude.

Today we have much easier access, high tech gear, better mapping (GPS!!!), and a lot more people interested in out there activities. Many of whom have the extreme confidence of youth. There is also a lot more information about places and trips. This forum will have the inevitable consequence of encouraging people to venture to the limit or beyond their abilities - simply from the photos we put up and the glowing successes we record. I think it means that a lot more people will be putting themselves in the way of danger - many coming into the state with little experience of what makes it unique.
We all know of deaths and severe injuries in the bush. And we have probably heard the stories or seen people attempting the OT with shopping bags - or as we saw - a party heading into the Western Arthurs with chairs and an esky - thinking that their experience on the OT was good preparation! I have no idea how they got on - we were blasted off the top on our way out that day. So I sympathise with those who have jumped at the need for good planning and the even more important need for experience.
I think it is a very wise deduction to have a crack at shorter or easier walks to get up a knowledge of the lay of the land, the nature of the scrub and particularly the vagaries of the weather, before jumping into something as ambitious as this one was. This thread was an opportunity to express this for others who may read it.
However, every trip for "experience" will test us. And disaster could come on any of them. Such "experience" may not have been adequate for this trip either.
All these things scare me. My next trip will be without the safety of being able to shuffle my times to suit the weather. We will be committed - even if it is a blizzard, so we need to be ready. This may be an experience beyond anything I have had before - but that is how we learn. [Note - I have been walking in strong storms before, but I know there is a lot worse out there I have not experienced yet]
In short - experience is good and should be greatly encouraged - but it is no guarantee. These guys did a lot of planning, and we are reading between the lines to make much more of it for now. In fact - I would go so far as to say that although I would not have done this or advised them to do it, these are not the ones who really need to be warned or told off! The dumb ones will probably never even read this site - but hopefully some that do will pick up on our warnings.

We also have a very slick and expert rescue organisation. These are the people who recently commended a party of school girls who got "lost" near Blue Lake in the Main Range of NSW for pressing the button on their EPIRB. He would far rather they went and found the girls were safe, than they hesitate and suffer the consequences. Others of us are tax payers thinking about the cost and poor use of resources. While that is a legitimate concern, it sort of pales when we consider the enormous amount of waste we see of resources every day. I know that is politics, but the fact that there is an emergency rescue organisation does change the dynamic on what people will attempt and also with how soon they will pull out.
I have never carried an EPIRB before, but we will take one this time. Does that mean I am being irresponsible or pushing beyond our abilities? No - but it does acknowledge the wisdom of making use of modern facilities as an appropriate backup. Should I push on in the spirit of the pioneers when I have food and resources to go on? That should not be second guessed - I know what the Rescue guys would be saying. Better early and safe, than never and sorry.
We had friends who in the gentler parts of the WA suffered a broken wrist. They were in a party of 4 and were well equipped and had to wait for about 3 days before help could be raised (no EPIRB - 2 of them had to run back a long way) and a helicopter could actually get through the bad weather and get in to them. Their experience has emphasised why you should carry an EPIRB - though I did note that when we went through the same place we had relatively easy access to good mobile phone coverage. Next trip is Central Plateau which has no coverage.

2) The balance between preparation and risk.
Every walk is risky - how many posts have we seen with amazing escapes in them - from the camera shot of the hole in the ice were a solo walker fell through when taking a self portrait - to the recent broken leg in deep snow on another solo walk. I think solo is the most risky - I almost broke a knee cap on a tough fall on a solo walk.
It is actually quite amazing how few accidents there are - given the many close calls. And how few fatalities given the number of people who are out there these days.
Preparation reduces risk, but it does not eliminate it.
Reading this thread, I wonder what people will think if I have to activate an EPIRB? There is little doubt that even the best planning and the best experience will not remove the need to use one. Sickness, snakes, broken bones, gear destroyed or lost - the list can go on.

I think that part of the allure of walking is getting away from the cocoon of civilisation - and pitting oneself against a raw, wilder, unpredictable element. That means that walking is a form of risk taking. And we all need to have the freedom to be able to take such risks. There are some limits - as in putting others in unecessary risk. And there is sheer recklessness - which should be condemned as we do not live unto ourselves but are part of a community. Yet I think that this case was an extreme example of what could be called acceptable risk. Its about as far out there as anyone should ever think of going. In that context, I think that the suggestion that the SPOT would have encouraged this trip is probably spot on. The risk equation, given their experience would probably have crossed the line if the SPOT were not part of their kit.

3) How humans react.
We all find it hard to be humble. True humility is in fact one of the greatest of virtues. It is the essence of teachability.
It is the ability to endure the harshest of language because you really want to learn and feel no threat from what people think of you.
Our modern world is not a place which nurtures this virtue. Looking out for number one and expressing your feelings and asserting your rights are the atmosphere we breathe. From media, to entertainment to schools. Hence the livid language - anger and insult that can so easily rise to the surface.
Nik - keep up the good work in appealling for a good tone. This is a great site, but being humans there will be people saying things or doing things that really annoy us.
Often, they will do so without even realising it, but sometimes it will be intentional.
The correct response is to try and get as much benefit from it as you can - even from your critics. And never let the temptation to jibe back express itself.

We are indeed all very thankful you got back safely. There is a great thirst to know what it was like. Especially to see how the unknown can arise when we have so many tools available in satellite imagery and mapping.
And some of us just love pictures - so we can dream.

Brian

[ollster]

I skimmed over Brett's response above, sorry if I missed anything. I would like to point out that I politely queried the group's experience in off track walking prior to the adventure.

I don't see a lot of hanging going on, rather trying to hammer home a point rather than making excuses for a badly thought out expedition which went against advice. I have absolutely no problem with them using the SPOT, as they were WAY out of their depth (no experience) even before setting it off. Unfortunately it took quite some time to realise this.

I have to admit, this has certainly made the forum more interesing!

[Taurë-rana]

It's certainly very interesting with the different opinions from experienced people - some very strongly believing that it was "a badly thought out expedition which went against advice", and others of us believing that while the group may have done some things differently in hindsight, it was not badly thought out or ill-prepared. Just shows how different we all are, even though we all share a love of the bush and bushwalking.

[PeterJ]

..... to good mobile phone coverage. Next trip is Central Plateau which has no coverage. Brian

Gee you must put a bit of time into the post, Brian

By the way there is mobile coverage (next G) on many parts of the Central plateau. I was there in October and found several spots gave good coverage whilst others at same altitude had none.

[Dave Bremers]

Thanks Brian, admittedly my desire to jibe back is only perpetuating things. Love the pun: "I think that the suggestion that the SPOT would have encouraged this trip is probably spot on". Yeah it did encourage the trip - in our opinion going without one to that sort of area, no matter your experience, is irresponsible considering the technology is available. Imagine the SAR resources involved in a ground search just because someone couldn't be bothered carrying 200g of EPIRB?

[PeterJ]

One of the aspects coming from the publicity coming from bushwalker rescues, is the negative view about bushwalking that it generates amongst the public and media. This can lead to calls to curb the freedom we bushwalkers currently have. I regularly hear people say "no one should walk alone" and "PLBs should be mandatory" and plenty of other suggestions that make me annoyed. Bushwalker bashing is not unheard of out among the public and sometimes in the media.

[tasadam]

One of the aspects coming from the publicity coming from bushwalker rescues, is the negative view about bushwalking that it generates amongst the public and media. This can lead to calls to curb the freedom we bushwalkers currently have. I regularly hear people say "no one should walk alone" and "PLBs should be mandatory" and plenty of other suggestions that make me annoyed. Bushwalker bashing is not unheard of out among the public and sometimes in the media.

And when people get hurt on the roads, do we bushwalkers go driver-bashing? No because we drive as well. There is a lot of ignorance in this world.
And when politicians waste money on something that fails (not mentioning a police boat or a TAB sale), do we bash the pollies? Ok, bad example

[Dave Bremers]

mmmm those pesky bushwalkers! i'd rather be in a room with a bunch of heroine addicts ...er... not.
just in case, I didn't mean PLBs should always be compulsory, rather they should be in areas where there is no other backup (phone reception, other walkers etc.)

[Dave Bremers]

not even compulsory, just strongly recommended.