Tarkine mining

[Hallu]

Ent I'm not sure what you're saying can be counted as valid arguments. First of all, it's more leaning on "yes yes yes" for Tarkine mining right now, unless you missed what the discussion is about. Second, no conservationist in his right mind would ignore what urban development is doing all over Australia, coal power plants being one of their most iconic representative, but destruction of habitat being the silent effective killer.

Saying "nobody cares about saving natural areas around big cities so I support Burke's decision" doesn't make sense to me. You seem to be missing on what stepbystep is saying : it's not (only) outsiders that scream against this decision, it's Tasmanians themselves, who always have been more conservationists at heart than all the other states, and this is this conservationist spirit clashing against the need for economic development and "old" primary jobs such as mining/logging/farming that makes the burning debates we see all the time.

[Nuts]

They were at home during the working day?

and I thought i was the only desk jockey up this way ; ) ent I think we need a conservation/controversy corner to cover so much?

Oh lol, Hallu, that's right, there still remains an attitude of 'we don't want you here', I guess that = conservation

[corvus]

Hi Ent

The Tarkine as named quite respectfully after the Tarkineer people, one of the four tribes of the region by Bob Brown and subsequently adopted by Forestry Tasmania for their Tourism venture 'Tarkine Forest Adventures' is indeed a vast area. Having spoken to many locals of the area from Marrawah to Corrina very few of them want 'the jobs' or 'the change' that potential mining would bring, in fact quite the opposite, they want the place "left *&%$#! well alone". It seems desk jockeys in Devonport and Burnie are pissing them off almost as much as decision makers in Hobart or Canberra.

Aside from your generalisations as to who is making decisions for whom and why, how much time have you spent in the area and what are your impressions?

Regards.

sbs from memory there are not that many locals from Marrawah to Corrina but a hell of a lot who live in the greater Circular Head area who welcome the Mine after the job losses in Smithton ,did you happen to note how many turned up to the pro mining rally recently ??
corvus

[sthughes]

I was down there over the holidays, I've read the environmental impact study (or at least scanned and read the juicy bits) and frankly I can't see the big deal.

I think each mining project should be judged on its own values. Some areas of "The Tarkine" are very worth protecting, other parts (like this bit) are pretty crap. Also the road kill argument makes a laugh of the tourism argument. Far less vehicle movements are required to make the same money if you compare mining to tourism! On top of which the mine will be reporting kills and paying big fines if they kill devils, unlike tourists.

Basically they are going to take some scrub, a few trees and a small area of button grass and turn it into a small but very deep lake, a couple of small swampy/wetland areas and an unusually steep little hill.

Mining today isn't what it used to be. I've been doing a bit of work at a mine lately and it really struck me what the priorities of the guys running things were. First was worker safety, second was the environment and compliance with their environmental regulations/conditions.

If we don't mine (or make pulp etc.) here, it's just gonna be done much worse elsewhere.

[stepbystep]

The big deal is what if one mine turns into 15 and if the proposed mine goes pear shaped look at what's downstream on the Nelson River.

I think you'll find the first priority of a mining company is not worker safety it is not environmental concerns it is profit one profit two and profit three.

As far as roadkill is concerned it seems to me that on a Friday and Saturday nights the roadkill numbers go up this has nothing to do with tourists but everything to do with redneck yokels with a belly full of beer.

Can't believe that the northern strollers seem to be obsessed with chopping things down and digging things up or tourism as the only answer for Tasmania what about the smart jobs guys?

[sthughes]

The big deal is what if one mine turns into 15 and if the proposed mine goes pear shaped look at what's downstream on the Nelson River.

I think you'll find the first priority of a mining company is not worker safety it is not environmental concerns it is profit one profit two and profit three.

As far as roadkill is concerned it seems to me that on a Friday and Saturday nights the roadkill numbers go up this has nothing to do with tourists but everything to do with redneck yokels with a belly full of beer.

Can't believe that the northern strollers seem to be obsessed with chopping things down and digging things up or tourism as the only answer for Tasmania what about the smart jobs guys?

So do you think we should ban any development anywhere just in case there is more of the same? I say IF we start to get to a point where there are too many mines then we do something about it, a moratorium or similar. But at the moment we have 1, plus this one. That's 2 in an enormous area.

I'm not saying the boffins in head office in Sydney aren't obsessed with making dollars, but on the ground it's safety and compliance, just from my limited experience. A lot has changed in the last 20-30 years. Having said that, penalties for breaches could be increased in my opinion.

So there should be a curfew to stop locals driving, say 5pm Friday to midday Sunday? Bet that will help the tourism industry.
I'm not "obsessed with chopping things down and digging things up", but in moderation, and with the proper environmental controls I can't see why we should turn our backs on easy money.

Where are these "smart jobs" you talk about? I'm not sure you realise, but these days mines aren't full of idiots in chain gangs hammering away at rocks with their bare hands, and then pumping waste into the nearest water course. It just isn't how it is. A lot of intelligent professionals work at and/or consult with mines. And a lot of effort goes into studying and minimising potential environmental impacts. I am all for smart jobs and think think more should be done to stimulate such things, the NBN is a great start to this end. But not everybody is cut out to be a computer nerd, there needs to be some balance, and banning mines doesn't help create smart jobs.

I will ask again, is it better that such mines be placed in possibly more sensitive areas in other parts of the world where environmental aspects are of no concern and tailings go straight into the nearest watercourse - just like mining in Australia was done for a century? Or should progress simply stop, and we be content to not use minerals, to not have computers, cars, cities or even mechanised agriculture to feed us?

[wayno]

can we keep consuming endlessly and trying to extract more from the land endlessly
i saw a talk by an economist that showed that every year, a greater amount of earth needs to be extracted to obtain the same amount of minerals as the previous year....
even if the world economy no longer requires a greater volume of minerals. we still need to expand the scale of mining just to stand still.... look at the rising price of various minerals
the pressures to expand mining are going to be greater in the future if there are minerals worth mining in an area...
how will people react to future pressures to mine in parks? the miners will go after more park areas....
so the tarkine can be mined.... and its unknown how extensively it will be mined. dont be surprised if the mining just keeps on expanding going after every last mineral resource they can get...

Last edited by wayno on Tue 26 Feb, 2013 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

[stepbystep]

StHughes if you followed the thread you would have an idea of my views so scornful comments about road kill wont give your thoughts a fair hearing.

As with forest products, mining isn't easy money I have several relatives far smarter than me involved in mining and just as with forestry we need to use resources a lot more efficiently. If you read my thoughts re Tarkine mining you might find you will agree with some of them.

[Hallu]

The big deal is what if one mine turns into 15 and if the proposed mine goes pear shaped look at what's downstream on the Nelson River.

I think you'll find the first priority of a mining company is not worker safety it is not environmental concerns it is profit one profit two and profit three.

As far as roadkill is concerned it seems to me that on a Friday and Saturday nights the roadkill numbers go up this has nothing to do with tourists but everything to do with redneck yokels with a belly full of beer.

Can't believe that the northern strollers seem to be obsessed with chopping things down and digging things up or tourism as the only answer for Tasmania what about the smart jobs guys?

So do you think we should ban any development anywhere just in case there is more of the same?

There IS gonna be more of the same. Burke promised 1000 jobs. One mine in development in the Tarkine is 60 jobs (I posted a link on a previous page) so you'd need at least 10 mines to have an amount of jobs close to what Burke promised...

[Nuts]

What about all the Cornish Pastie shops? ( )

[frenchy_84]

can we keep consuming endlessly and trying to extract more from the land endlessly
i saw a talk by an economist that showed that every year, a greater amount of earth needs to be extracted to obtain the same amount of minerals as the previous year....
even if the world economy no longer requires a greater volume of minerals. we still need to expand the scale of mining just to stand still.... look at the rising price of various minerals

Sand used to make the glass for iPhones etc are mined in Corrina, are you prepared to go without your iPhone for the sake of the tarkine?

how will people react to future pressures to mine in parks? the miners will go after more park areas....

No one is suggesting mining in NPs

[doogs]

What about all the Cornish Pastie shops? ( )

Wrong side of the state Nuts, Cornwall is in the Fingal Valley. And yes there is a mine there!!

[Hallu]

Of course not no one is talking about mining in NPs, since it's already done... Ever heard of the Ranger mine ? Of course they adapted the park boundaries so it's not within them, it's just a free for all uranium mining zone in the middle of the biggest NP in Australia, with more than 200 environmental infractions since its construction... And as far as the "phone" argument is concerned... this is even worse than pub talk...

[frenchy_84]

And as far as the "phone" argument is concerned... this is even worse than pub talk...

Its very valid, its a typical nimby mindset, people complain and protest about mining but are still quite happy to use the results of mining, just don't want to know where it comes from.

and you have mentioned previously that NP's are managed by state govs, so what does a mine in the NT (excised from a NP) have to do with mining in NPs in Tas which won't happen

[Hallu]

This is going no where... Oh by the way Burke is federal.

[Son of a Beach]

And as far as the "phone" argument is concerned... this is even worse than pub talk...

Its very valid, its a typical nimby mindset, people complain and protest about mining but are still quite happy to use the results of mining, just don't want to know where it comes from.

I agree with this.

and you have mentioned previously that NP's are managed by state govs, so what does a mine in the NT (excised from a NP) have to do with mining in NPs in Tas which won't happen

But not with this. Lake Pedder was in the middle of a national park. They changed the park boundaries (or did they completely revoke the park altogether?) in order to make it available for development (a dam, not a mine, but much the same principal). That doesn't mean that it would happen again, but it is a dangerous precedent.

However, as it is they have decided to avoid making it a park in the first place in order to avoid the issue completely.

(I don't have a strong opinion on this issue either way, by the way).

[frenchy_84]

Oh by the way Burke is federal.

Oh really, thanks for clearing that up. None of the proposed mines are within the savage river NP either

[frenchy_84]

But not with this. Lake Pedder was in the middle of a national park. They changed the park boundaries (or did they completely revoke the park altogether?) in order to make it available for development (a dam, not a mine, but much the same principal). That doesn't mean that it would happen again, but it is a dangerous precedent.
.

I don't believe that will happen again, particularly when you bear in mind how much of a say environmental groups have on development in Tas

[wayno]

depends how active the environmentalists stay
in nz in the seventies the govt damned lake monowai despite opposition from teh public.
then the govt went to dam lake manapouri, this really got the public riled up, it was a far more well known lake and the conservationists were more organised, the opposition was massive and they put a stop to the dam...
but over the years proposals pop up from time to time to develop the parks , so far the public opposition has been enough to put the govt off, including plans to mine in wilderness areas, but the govt keep trying and they issue "concessions" in national parks to get around park management plans to add development...
abel tasman national park is just flooded with commercial kayak and boating operations after decades of not allowing commercial expansion in the park , the conservation dept did an about face. so you get 200,000 people overnighting through the park over summer, its only 30k from end to end... with only one coastal track and one inland track, almost everyone is on the coastal track..
so there are ways and means to change the rules... but so far the really big proposed developments have been kept at bay only where the public are aware of them and have their say....
if you want an area protected try get it made into a national park and pay attention to govt plans...
i think the only reason our govt have relented recently is they see the next election is going to be a close one and they dont want to upset too many people... and or they've been taking poles on what issues will swing voters.... otherwise they probably would have just rammed through legislation anyway

[Hallu]

What's the point in using dams anyway... NZ and AUS already burn coal like crazy to produce their electricity, why not switch to nuclear ? AUS has the biggest uranium deposits in the world, and nuclear, although not ideal (nothing is in electricity production), is definitely more environment-friendly than coal and dams...

[photohiker]

Its very valid, its a typical nimby mindset, people complain and protest about mining but are still quite happy to use the results of mining, just don't want to know where it comes from.

This is a bit of a blame the victim argument though. It's not like there is a list of resources and geographic locations for all the parts of an iPhone or whatever available. I do agree that as consumers, society should apply whatever pressure we have available to minimise the damage of that consumption.

You know that chocolate you ate yesterday? Possibly the product of Child Slave labour, how did it taste?.

[frenchy_84]

why not switch to nuclear ? AUS has the biggest uranium deposits in the world, and nuclear, although not ideal (nothing is in electricity production), is definitely more environment-friendly than coal and dams...

hmmm, how many posts ago were you complaining about uranium mining?

[frenchy_84]

This is a bit of a blame the victim argument though. It's not like there is a list of resources and geographic locations for all the parts of an iPhone or whatever available. I do agree that as consumers, society should apply whatever pressure we have available to minimise the damage of that consumption.

You know that chocolate you ate yesterday? Possibly the product of Child Slave labour, how did it taste?.

We as consumers aren't victims, we have the choice to buy as we please. If you don't like what palm sugar is doing to Borneo don't buy products that use it. If you don't like how metal is mined, then your going to struggle to buy modern things however its not really a sacrifice for your beliefs if its easy. I believe that if your not prepared to make the sacrifices or find alternatives then your not really prepared to get on your (not aimed at you directly) high horse and condemn mining. Its the same with eating meat, unless your prepared to kill the animal you shouldn't eat the meat. And i find chocolate delicious.

[Ent]

Curious indeed the amazing number of locals at Corrina? It history was as a mining town with timber harvesting as well. Population then dropped to one. Yes one! It is now a tourist operation hiring out the old buildings. Frankly I doubt if it has one local resident that does not live somewhere else. I think I might be able to sell a bridge in Sydney to someone that found the extensive local population!

So we see the same old media beat up tactics being used. Cut to protestor chained to the fence now.

One mine suddenly is now a hundred mines as well. Same old same old approach so refined it is predictable.

Any development, especially extractive industry should be measured on its merits. Strangely anywhere but Tasmania it is but here it is always no.

I await the discovery of the rare spotted quoll, orange belly parrot, and Tasmanian Devil to be found at any proposed mine site. Heck we might even see celebrity naturalist outside their city environment visiting.

I just hope, rather against hope, that sensible review process will be done but having witness countless political considerations interfere in the past not banking on this.

Extractive industries is about balance. Without gold Melbourne might of never happened on the scale it did. Good thing or bad thing it happened?

[Strider]

What's the point in using dams anyway... NZ and AUS already burn coal like crazy to produce their electricity, why not switch to nuclear ? AUS has the biggest uranium deposits in the world, and nuclear, although not ideal (nothing is in electricity production), is definitely more environment-friendly than coal and dams...

And where exactly are these coal-fired power plants in NZ? I've only come across a multitude of hydro setups.

[wayno]

in nz theres huntly and thats it
there is an oil fired power station in auckland, but its partly for backup generation
theres a gas fired station in new plymouth
the rest is hydro or wind powered or geothermal...

nz mines a fair bit of coal, but exports the majority of it.

nuclear is turning out to be problematic overseas as reactor plants get old and harder to maintain and keep safe..., america isnt building more....

[Hallu]

You've got the Huntly complex on the North Island. Definitely not as impressive as Traralgon in Victoria though.

Hydro destroys ecosystem, wind farms are ugly as hell and need large quantities of rare earth mineral, same for solar panels, which are insanely polluting to extract (that's why we mostly let the Chinese do it). Nuclear, when done well, has no equivalent. It only rejects water, the main drawback is nuclear waste of course, but between burying waste in a small controlled zone and burning call, gas or oil, I choose nuclear... When solar thermal plants become economically viable, then it's gonna be the solution.

[Taurë-rana]

One of the reasons that people on the NW Coast are so keen for industry that destroys the wilderness is because (apart from it having a more redneck, parochial, and non-educated population than many places - generalisation), we have no jobs! I have a son who has been looking for over a year, I've applied for over 20 in the past two years and have accounting and teaching qualifications but there are just too many people looking. I'm lucky that I have an online business that gives me something of an income, but when you are trying to live off unemployment benefits I can imagine that anyone who offers the prospect of jobs would be welcomed with open arms. Who cares if it screws the environment if it gives the potential for money for food, petrol, etc?

I would point out that this is not my view at all, I'm horrified by the idea of mining in the Tarkine as I have spent quite a bit of time in various parts of it and think that although it is not an intact wilderness, what is left should be looked after properly. Just because it's already got scars, doesn't mean that what is left is not worth preserving. There may be room for small, environmentally sensitive mines in certain places, but it would need to be very tightly controlled and that certainly doesn't happen with Forestry, so I can't see it happening with mining.

Off the track a bit, a friend pointed out to me the other day that people complain about areas being "locked up" for conservation, but the biggest locker uppers of public (our) land, are Forestry and mining companies - why do they have the right to exclude us from accessing public land to go up a mountain or walk to a river?

[photohiker]

This is a bit of a blame the victim argument though. It's not like there is a list of resources and geographic locations for all the parts of an iPhone or whatever available. I do agree that as consumers, society should apply whatever pressure we have available to minimise the damage of that consumption.

You know that chocolate you ate yesterday? Possibly the product of Child Slave labour, how did it taste?.

We as consumers aren't victims, we have the choice to buy as we please. If you don't like what palm sugar is doing to Borneo don't buy products that use it. If you don't like how metal is mined, then your going to struggle to buy modern things however its not really a sacrifice for your beliefs if its easy. I believe that if your not prepared to make the sacrifices or find alternatives then your not really prepared to get on your (not aimed at you directly) high horse and condemn mining. Its the same with eating meat, unless your prepared to kill the animal you shouldn't eat the meat. And i find chocolate delicious.

I think you missed my point, perhaps I did not explain clearly. I'm not anti-mining per se, and I don't have much problem with many of the mining operations I have seen which are generally desert operations here in SA. On the other hand, there are some here in the Adelaide Hills that should never have happened and are continuing to pollute the local waterways. So if I am to vote with my consumer feet against a product built from mining in areas that I feel should not have been mined then it is currently nigh on impossible to identify that product. The upside is that if the product is actually identified there is an opportunity for the consumers to make their feelings public which may result in a move by the manufacturer to materials from less damaging operations. That is why for instance, you can now buy slave free chocolate and coffee.

The consumers become the victims because they unwittingly buy product that impacts sensitive areas. Buying 'as we please' without adequate information ropes us all in basically by ignorance and perhaps a little deceit.

[geoskid]

I was thinking about the income to the State from this Eco-mining soon to commence in The Tarkine.
I think it would be a lost opportunity if it just dissappeared into consolidated revenue. I'd like to see it fund major infrastructure projects required to set Tasmania up for a sustainable future.

There's some interesting ideas here around growing the education & science sector.

https://theconversation.edu.au/the-tasm ... lity-11443

which would also fit hand in glove with experiential tourism. Throw in some effort to attract cashed up retirees.