Up New River to Federation

[ILUVSWTAS]

THEN it might be time to tackle something like the New River.

Is that the order you're planning them in ILSWT?

still debating on doing the Propstings in Jan actually Oll... Just going to depend on the dates

[ILUVSWTAS]

Not sure where the Moniloths are, come to think of it, not sure where there are Monoliths in Tassie either!

Time to get the maps out and have a bit of a look then??

[Son of a Beach]

Done their "apprenticeship" all in one go?

I don't know about "all", but certainly fast-tracked a substantial part of it, I reckon.

jmac - thanks very much for your informed opinions on this, and for presenting your views so well. There are very few of us who have walked this particular area, and so very few of us are truly qualified to comment on the specifics of it (although some aspects of it are very similar to other areas).

[Son of a Beach]

Please note that the previous 2 posts from 2 different people were deleted (and a PM sent to explain). They didn't really contribute to the content of the topic, and were more on personal and communication issues.

I've recently received some heavy criticism for the way in which we've attempted to manage this topic (for a variety of opposing reasons ). This topic has been unusually difficult to manage because of the strong opinions often resulting in offensive posts, and I am sure to have not got it quite right in every case.

If you feel that anything in this topic (or elsewhere) should be managed differently, please feel free to send us a private message, but note that we would really appreciate specific information about specific posts (including the URL for the post, which is available from the heading of each post - or use the report button for that post).

[Son of a Beach]

I wasn't fishing for a pat on the back with that previous post (a bit embarrassing, really), but I do appreciate the positive feedback. In order to avoid taking this further off topic, I've split off those replies to a new topic in the Forum & Site forum.

[JamesMc]

At the risk of repeating myself and also offending some people, I think that part of the problem is that mainlanders sometimes have no idea of what Tassie's wilderness is like.

This is true. Here in Victoria we have a recognised walking route (northern circuit at Wilsons Prom) that is so hard that when you apply for a permit to do it, you need to sign a form saying what great bushwalking experience you have. It's actually about as hard as the eastern approaches to the Walls of Jerusalem. What's someone who's easily conquered Wilsons Prom or Mt Jagungal or the Blue Mountains going to think when Jmac (who they've never walked with) says something is really really hard? (Having walked with Jmac, if he was to tell me something is really really hard, I'll probably decide it's not how I want to enjoy my holidays.)

Also, taking a day to walk a kilometre actually doesn't sound that bad if you're sitting at home at your computer. It's a bit different if you've been doing it day after day with no end in sight, and it hasn't stopped raining in all that time. Or if it's 35 degrees with no water, no wind, and nothing for shade except teatree and baura.

Also, someone who has been lucky enough to have done a few SW walks in fine weather probably doesn't understand how tough it can get.

Perhaps the best way to advise someone like the party in question is to first get an understading of what they have already done in Tasmania, and if that sounds like insufficient experience, possibly suggest an alternative. Perhaps if someone said to Dave "You're getting in over your head - why not go for a stroll along the Eldons and leave the New River for next time" things might have turned out differently. I didn't see this sort of advice on this thread before the incident.

JamesMc
Melbourne

[tasadam]

<snip> mainlanders sometimes have no idea of what Tassie's wilderness is like.

nothing for shade except teatree and baura.

You see, this is a good example, teatree and bauera offer excellent shade... (poor humour attempt)

Perhaps if someone said to Dave "Your getting in over your head - why not go for a stroll along the Eldons and leave the New River for next time" things might have turned out differently.

Not so sure, having read this post by jmac again.

I didn't see this sort of advice on this thread before the incident.

Not on this thread, but in the Disclaimer section of the rules, which everyone should familarise themselves with, particularly rule 1.

Bushwalk Tasmania is a public forum and therefore the information you read here must be regarded only as the opinions of the people who made those comments, not as reliable facts, nor as the opinions of Bushwalk Tasmania.

Nobody at Bushwalk Tasmania - not the people who post information, nor any of the site administrators or moderators - can be or will be held responsible for actions anyone may take as a result of reading this information.

Each person must accept full responsibility for their own actions when using information from these forums, and it is the responsibility of each person to do their own research to validate any information they may consider using from the Bushwalk Tasmania forums.

For example:

If you read some track notes on Bushwalk Tasmania then decide to use that information on a bushwalk, and become lost because the the post included incorrect or insufficient details, do not blame anybody at Bushwalk Tasmania. You must take responsibility for what happens during your bushwalk, including getting lost. Before you go walking you need to know how to navigate, what equipment to bring, how to use your equipment and to know your own limits.

The members of this forum are happy to make public the information provided here, but all the information on this site is merely a collection of opinions and none of it is necessarily validated by Bushwalk Tasmania or anyone else. Whether it is accurate or whether it suits your needs or whether you decide to follow or accept that information is entirely up to you.

[Taurë-rana]

You see, this is a good example, teatree and bauera offer excellent shade... (poor humour attempt)

Much better than the button grass which I have been desperate enough to try to find shade under before now, it doesn't work.

[Dave Bremers]

Perhaps if someone said to Dave "Your getting in over your head - why not go for a stroll along the Eldons and leave the New River for next time" things might have turned out differently.

Not so sure, having read this post by jmac again.

I hadn't read the forum rules beforehand but it seems common sense to me (and I was right) that no one on this forum is responsible for anything that I do. Or for advice they give in a friendly manner. If people told me that I shouldn't go, as some hinted along these lines, I did exactly this: went through, reassessed everything, including new information, and came to the conclusion that it was doable. When people give advice it's not an order: just because some people say not to go, doesn't mean I won't. This goes for everyone who says they should have been harsher too: its not your fault. I don't view anyone on this forum (or anyone at all) as a know-it-all god. I weighed up the facts, from a huge number or places, not just the forum.

[filterthis]

Hi everyone.

I am a long time reader of this forum but have never posted until now. This thread has raised a number of what I consider to be very important issues. Before I address them, I would like to point out that I have worked in the emergency services (both volunteer and professional) for over ten years so I am not an 'armchair critic'.

The party in question seems to have seriously annoyed a number people on this forum and several serious criticisms have been leveled against them. There are a few criticisms that I believe are based on faulty reasoning and I would like to provide a counter argument.

The first point is the suggestion that the party was irresponsible in putting the lives of rescuers at risk by activating the beacon and thus should not have attempted the expedition or should have tried harder to find an alternative means of getting out.

I feel very strongly about the idea that people are putting rescuers at risk by trying these sort of routes. For a start it is not that dangerous for rescuers. Never forget that emergency service work is still regarded as a workplace. If it was really that dangerous, we would not be allowed to do it. Simple as that. Secondly, it is not as though rescue workers are conscripts that are dragged away from their crying children to perform these rescues. They are highly trained professional men and women who know exactly what they are doing and choose to do it in full awareness of the risks. I might also add that most of us actually enjoy what we do and get a great deal of satisfaction from doing it.

The simple fact is that almost everything is dangerous. Should we stop driving because we might crash and cause an emergency services worker to be put at risk during a rescue? This is a far more likely scenario and I bear the scars to prove it.

From a rescuers point of view I think these guys did the right thing. They moved to a safe location before setting off the beacon. They quit at the right time. By this I mean that they stopped BEFORE they were forced to by injury/illness. There was no risky extractions from the bottom of a ravine in stormy weather in the middle of the night. It was simply a rational decision taken at the right time and acted on to the best of their abilities.

I have another one but it is getting late and I will do it later.

Cheers.

[geoskid]

Thanks for your point of view Filterthis - makes sense

[Son of a Beach]

filterthis...

Thanks very much for your input into this discussion. It is fantastic to have this 'inside' opinion from a search and rescue member, and it really does help to balance out the discussion and provide a much more well-rounded set of opinions.

Thanks for being willing to participate.

[Nuts]

Hi everyone.


From a rescuers point of view I think these guys did the right thing. They moved to a safe location before setting off the beacon. They quit at the right time. By this I mean that they stopped BEFORE they were forced to by injury/illness. There was no risky extractions from the bottom of a ravine in stormy weather in the middle of the night. It was simply a rational decision taken at the right time and acted on to the best of their abilities.

Cheers.

Were you involved in this particular case? Personally I haven't asked for the full report as i'm not particularly interested in either attempting that trip or offering strong judgements on the rescue.... Without the full report, what does seem blindingly obvious (and I suspect the 'main' theme that some were trying to get across) was that the guys were not prepared/experienced to attempt this route...that they shouldn't have been in a situation that required rescue? When they were rescued they had no critical need and had provisions to try alternatives (for which, some think, they should have been better prepared)?. I agree that If anyone is in a situation that could get much worse then sure, call for help, but by that reasoning (in this case) perhaps Dave's group should have set off the beacon on day one?

Emergency response is perhaps a subject on its own. Perhaps, in Tassie, keeping the service busy every day of the year (and providing the funding to do so) is worth not discouraging anyone from attempting anything that a beacon can bring them back from? If not then where is the line drawn?

Last edited by Nuts on Thu 17 Dec, 2009 1:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.

[johnw]

Hi filterthis, great to have professional input and welcome

I might also add that most of us actually enjoy what we do and get a great deal of satisfaction from doing it.

My youngest son has been a volunteer with local the SES unit for several years and loves it. Coincidentally, he arrived home from work last night and immediately received a callout to assist the police in a search for a lost bushwalker. He almost knocked me over in his haste to get out the front door...

p.s. they attended the scene but the guy walked out on his own

[Dave Bremers]

*sigh* ... everyone (Nuts in particular) the trip report is out so can we not have any more judgements made by people whose entire knowledge of the incident extends to one line of text repeated by Chinese whispers from the start of the topic? "We had provisions..." great. good to see you've summed everything up there.

Of course, those people who have been quick to judge and set the gallows will have to come over to the mainland and pry it from my hands.

[Nuts]

Dave, if you look at the (very little) iv'e had to say, i think you could possibly see that the discussion of your rescue has (at least for me) never really been about 'You'... Good that your home safe... its now about the next rescue

(There has been a price to pay (perhaps rightly? <- (this is the question)) and its paid. Now its part of your experience and you can move on... all good )

[Dave Bremers]

sorry misread it

[alliecat]

*sigh* ... everyone (Nuts in particular) the trip report is out so can we not have any more judgements made by people whose entire knowledge of the incident extends to one line of text repeated by Chinese whispers from the start of the topic? "We had provisions..." great. good to see you've summed everything up there.

Of course, those people who have been quick to judge and set the gallows will have to come over to the mainland and pry it from my hands.

Umm, unless I misunderstand, this means that you don't like any criticism or judgement from people who have only the publically posted information to go by, but you won't send any more detailed information to anybody who has criticised your actions?

So you're only interested in the opinions of people who wont criticise you? Not a very useful way to learn anything really.

For the record, I have never criticised your decision to use the PLB. In my view it was absolutely the right thing to do in the circumstances.

[PeterJ]

... (Nuts in particular) ........can we not have any more judgements made by people whose entire knowledge of the incident extends to one line of text ...................

This is a bit harsh, after all Nuts is just stating that the party did not have enough experience to attempt this route and after all one of your posts admitted that you and the others were very light on experience of SW Tas. It would be interesting to know if, in hindsight, you reckon you were ready for such and adventure.

[Nuts]

sorry misread it

Hey Dave, look mate, for the record you seem like an intelligent fella, you did (at least what you thought to be) a relatively fair amount of research. There are many incidents where people were far less prepared and have been rescued from far less perilous situations. It's difficult to get across a point on these topics without offence. (tbh, i'm not sure i would detail my plans for such a trip, probably just ask a few general questions... it was hard to turn away once everyone knew it was your group.. )

What seems like an important issue to me is the use of plb in planning rather than rescue. The direction this seems to be taking and what the likely outcomes will be into the future? (without here judging the role the beacon played in your planning)

Aside from questions about rescue and without the benefit of hindsight.... do you think you would have attempted the trip without carrying a beacon?

[Dave Bremers]

No. Of course not. We didn't plan to use it, but no one plans to get a broken leg (etc.) either.

Alliecat...

[Nuts]

Thanks, very interesting....

[corvus]

Dave ,
The enthusiasm of youth will never replace the experience of age, you had a go it did not work out however this will happen again many times in your life in all sorts of circumstances so hard as it is just accept the criticism and move on dont try to justify your actions as you came second and in todays world unfortunately "only winners are grinner's "
A very wise man wrote "The Best Laid Plans of Mice and Men Gang Aft Agley" and that has been my long held belief so dont let one setback curtail your future plans ( and yes I am a grumpy old fart) at the wrong end of life however I have a tremendous respect for young folk at the sharp end
corvus

[Dave Bremers]

Thanks corvus, I hope my enthusiasm will not dim with age, though I have a long way to go yet we did come second to nature, and I'm still learning not to be sucked into justifying myself to everyone. So many lessons! Where's this magical age when you know everything?

For the record, quite a number of people who have criticised my actions have gotten the report. I'm learning from this experience. Those who jumped the gun and got on the blame-bandwagon on impulse I have a lot more difficulty sending it to. Why spread information to people who twist and distort and insult? I have no respect for these people's so-called "criticism" anyway, so I'm not bothering to send it out to them.

I think you're right Nuts, next time I'll post for specific details rather than details of the whole trip.

[north-north-west]

We need young men doing risky things, and this is a lot more sensible then the usual getting drunk and riding on the roof of your mates ute that passes as a young man's initiation ceremony round here.

Young people, please.

Youthful exuberance or just plain stupidity?

I generally think that the main difference between the two is whether or not the person/people learn from the experience. They have, at least to some degree.

*sigh* It's easy enough to say 'walk before you run' and all that but, as I said in the Tim Holding thread - the trouble with ignorance is that you don't know how much you don't know. None of us knew what scrub-bashing was like until the first time we did it, no matter what we were told. None of us knew how incredibly bad it could be in the South West until we tried it down there. There are some things you simply can't appreciate until you've seen/tried them for yourself.
I think Dave pretty well says this himself, in the second Mercury article: "Has is stopped me being as adventurous? Probably not, but one thing it has taught me is that no matter how much planning you put in, you're never going to know until you get out there and give it a shot."

So, yeah, obviously I agree they needed more experience in the locale and conditions, but I'm not about to bash their heads in over it, because I know how impossible it would have been for them to realise their shortcomings beforehand. I've done things every bit as stupid* and risky in my time, just was lucky enough to be able to get myself out of it.

*ps: Dave, by 'stupid' I mean purely in a 'silly inexperienced young bugger' way, not a 'thick as ten short planks' way.

Last edited by north-north-west on Thu 17 Dec, 2009 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Son of a Beach]

Please note that some recent off-topic posts here were numerous enough to be worth splitting out of the topic. I've merged those topics with the existing (and now re-named) topic: Up New River to Federation - Moderation & Other Side Tracks

[PeterJ]

An Earlier Attempt, but in reverse - Lake Geeves down the New river.
Thanks to flyfisher who pointed me to an story in the Tasmanian Tramp No 34. I thought it would be interesting to post the following extract from this article which is on Jeanette Collin (see other posts) and written by Janet Fenton. The event took place in 1974

A trip in April down the New River from Lake Geeves proved by contrast to be a long, cold, wet ordeal. They had hoped to visit an interesting depression in the upper New River area and to cross back into the Picton River via Salisbury and Roberts Rivers. They reached the depression but progress was already proving slow and tedious and there was no time for exploration. The river was deep-sided, affording no campsites and one night they had to perch atop a steeply sloping land-slip hoping for no rain that night! They carried a japara 'Paddy Pallin' tent that could be abdulled - useful in this terrain. At one large pool they had no alternative but to jump backwards into the inner tubes. 'It was scary', said Jeanette, 'but it worked.' This was also the final gorge before the river turned south where the going became easier, although still slow. It was a flat campsite for once, but the night was an eerie one. Heavy rain had been falling and Jeanette's description sticks in my mind. 'A full moon shone intermittently on the rising river. Moonlit islands of foam sped swiftly past on the black water. Then, just as a huge clap of thunder shook the ground, a bird of prey carrying something in its talons, shot through the abdulled tent, away into the night.'
Progress had been so slow and, with the weather unfavourable, all thoughts of Roberts River had to be abandoned. Already they knew they would be overdue. The truck inner tubes proved very useful for the lower part of the New River where it was thick with bauera along the edges, and at times for the New River Lagoon.

[Flyboy]

Hi Breminator.

I hope to give you a slightly different perspective than most of the people who have seen fit to bag you on this forum.

I have not done any scrub bashing, and my bushwalking experience is probably well below that of most on here, but I have spent a few weeks in various parts of SW Tasmania.

Point No 1
Have no doubt about it, the people who have decided to pick apart your decision making and loudly criticise are, most probably, the people who would be saying how wonderful it was and claiming credit for giving you guidance if you had actually been successful.

Point No 2
Don't be fooled by others into thinking that you are the only one who has made a mistake. I'm sure most on this forum have made mistakes. In fact, I'm sure even gurus like John Chapman and Dave Noble can think back on times when they were under prepared, made poor decisions or could have done something better. It may have not resulted in an airlift evacuation, but that's besides the point. There are those who have made mistakes, and those who are going to... Anyone who thinks it is not possible for them to end up in the situation you did when walking in SW Tasmania is naive.

Point No 3
Before moving to the airlines, I worked as a SAR pilot. Some of the comments on here regarding rescue are false and I want to set you straight, if for no other reason than to make sure you will not hesitate in using your emergency beacon in the future. SAR crews are extremely highly trained. They have high levels of redundancy and safety in all facets of the operation. They will not go into a situation where they are placing their own lives at risk. PERIOD. Anyone who tries to tell you that setting off a beacon is placing lives at risk has NO understanding of aviation or search and rescue operations. And they don't get their sunday afternoon roast with family interrupted by your beacon, they are paid to be on call - just like a doctor or nurse.

Point No 4
Good on you for having a go. I have no doubt, simply from reading your frank admissions and getting to know you a little on the forum, you will use the knowledge wisely for next time. Some people your age spend their time stealing to buy drugs or drinking themselves into oblivion every weekend. If a young person drink drives and kills innocent people it is a "terrible tragedy". Yet if someone has to get airlifted after trying something new and bold, they are labelled irresponsible by armchair experts. Good on you for not wasting your life away and giving something hard and worthwhile your best shot.

I'm sure John Béchervaise had some people advise him against what he wanted to achieve. I'm glad he didn't listen.

[Michael_Kingston]

Flyboy

Point number one - a number of people on here tried to warn Breminator about what he was facing. It is not just a case of knowing after the event.

Point number two - Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but that is different from taking on something that is way over your head, which is what Breminator did. Surely there is a difference between responsible risk and irresponsibility?

Point number three - Carrying out a rescue never places lives at potential risk? Perhaps you should read the following account of the work done by one helicopter crew in the 1998 Sydney to Hobart and then write to them and tell them there was no substantial risk to their safety: http://www.snowyhydrosouthcare.com.au/pages/page37.asp

Point number 4 - If a young person drinks and drives it is not a 'terrible tragedy', it is a CRIME. Also, there are many people in here with incredible experience and skill that the Breminator wil ltake years to acquire. To dismiss their views as being those of 'armchair experts' is insulting.

[Peachy350]

Hi Breminator,

I was the helicopter crewman/winch operator the day the SPOT beacon was activated. I've been reading this forum with much interest in the differing opinions raised by so many. Not being an avid forum reader other than this one due to my involvement in the incident it has finally got the better of me and I wanted to reply so that others can be more informed when voicing their opinions. I also with to point out that I am also a bushwalker not just a bloke who watches from the comfort of a helicopter all the time.

Obviously due to my position I'm going to be somewhat of a "fence sitter" and am very wary of sharing my thoughts or feeling with you having regards to the incident. However, I can give some facts which hopefully will benifit other walkers.

All helicopter rescues have a level of danger. It is simply the nature of the beast and we try to make the best judgements on any given day. Yours was involved but by no means the most difficult rescue ever undertaken. Your location at the time we first make contact was a difficult one but you had clearly put some thought into how to signal us and had found pretty much the only small clearing in the area. You were on top of the ridge line which made main and tail rotor clearances from me to the pilot the best they could be given the terrain. If you were in similar bush in a steep slope we may not have been able to retrieve you. When we located you I could clearly see you were rapidly stowing your gear so that it was not blown away by rotor wash.

EPIRBS/SPOT beacons are an interesting revolution in the world of Search and Rescue. You had one, you used it, you were justified, it's that simple. Yes you got yourselves into a jam but you are not the fisrt or last to set off an EPIRB. Generally speaking we get close to one EPIRB activation a week in Tasmania and they can vary from people who simply get tired to breaking a leg. When I go walking I carry one, your are arrogant and ignorant if you do not. Simply carrying a beacon cuts out much of planning and searching phase of any rescue.

Many people I deal with see the helicopter as part of their taxes and don't even say thank you. Correct, they do not have to, yes I am getting paid, yes I like my job regardless, but I'm still human and you guys passed on your relief and thanks.

You have clearley received you kick in the backside from the forum readers but rest assured you have legally done nothing wrong. What this has done is highlighted the importance of carrying beacons and leaving details of your intentions with a friend or relative.