Up New River to Federation

[Nuts]

Peachy, good to hear these sides of the story
I guess, to keep things in perspective though, to me, its not so much 'whether' to activate a beacon when in danger, but whether the beacon itself has added to the danger (in the planning stage) by playing a role in planning particular routes. One per week sounds like a lot, have numbers gone up? Is it too early to answer this question?

When I go walking I carry one, your are arrogant and ignorant if you do not. Simply carrying a beacon cuts out much of planning and searching phase of any rescue.

Does it cut some of the planning from the walk itself?

(BTW Arrogant, ignorant I dont think are helpful terms at all! (Though I do see how you could feel that way from your perspective ie. someone focussed on, being paid and frustrated in these incidents) It does seem a little narrow (mindwise) Was there one incident per week in the years prior to plb's being widely available?)

[Son of a Beach]

Thanks very much for your insights, Peachy. It's great to hear from people so directly connected to these types of rescues, and especially so for the incident actually being discussed. I understand that it's not easy to give an opinion from any official position, so we're grateful for what you have been able to share here.

[Peachy350]

Hi Nuts,

I can see how the arrogant and ignorant comment may have been taken out of context. Hence my original comment about trying to remain impartial. I slipped!

What I meant was for this particuar journey where there is a high liklihood of a problem you would be very unwise (is that more fair?) to not take a beacon when they are inexpensive and so readilly available. Yes that is only an opinion although an opinion that may become legislation in the years to come. The arrogant comment was for people who may have attempted such a journey then expected help without bothering or considering a beacon. Yes the number of EPIRB jobs is on the rise I think that it's just the furture. Our remote wilderness is no longer so remote and that's just a fact of life as technology evolves.

I won't post actual EPIRB activation figures they are most likely available on the AUSSAR/AMSA website anyway if you are interested. My comments are only from personal experience and I won't be entering in a debate over that.

SPOT beacons have advantages and disadvantages over an EPIRB. They are both good items and both proven to save your life. I sort of get the impression you are not so keen on them? Many people are against them and they do have valid reasons. For arguments sake Breminator may not have embarked on his journey in the first place or if they did he may very well have pushed on and made it out. I find it really interesting speculating about all this as I find it helps me when planning a search or rescue.

[tasadam]

Peachy350 thank you very much for your input to this discussion. It would be really cool to hear more about what PLB activated S&R events are occurring, and why. It's obviously a topic many find very interesting.

I carry a PLB. If I needed to be rescued, I would use it. Evidence from this discussion suggests there would be many here on the forum that would flame me for doing so, which I do not think is helpful to anyone. Yes the point is the party in question were advised otherwise but gave it a go anyway, but the criticism has IMO been unbalanced. I still look forward to the photos because I cannot imagine how bad it was.
In this topic, a solo walker unfortunately brakes a leg, without a PLB. He self rescues, but aggrovates his injury in the process. It's a strong argument as to why you should carry a PLB. You don't have to use it, however in his situation I believe I would have. Mecically trained people have told me that a broken leg can be life threatening in some situations.

Regarding SPOT vs PLB, my undersetanding is that PLB also sends out a tracking frequency that can be pinpointed from the helicopter (whether GPS-equipeed PLB or not), whereas SPOT does not, and only transmits GPS coordinates. Is that right, and how do you think that affects potentiol rescues? For example, if SPOT is used for a rescue, then the party need to move location for some reason ie bushfire or something, would you be radioed the new location coordinates en-route? If so, what's your radio range? Speculating here on a number of reasons why SPOT might not be as good as dedicated PLB so people kmow the facts and limitations, and can make an informed choice. Probably better suited to another topic though.

[Nuts]

Yer, thanks peachy, i do irk a bit at the thought of any mention of taking plbs to the point where they are compulsory. Guess i'm one of the 'old school' when it comes to 'big mother' watching over us

I would much rather see some sort of control over their availability (yes i know it sounds like an opposing view, though (to me) i believe that the idea would not so clearly be that different in terms of the final outcome).

Nothing against SPOT at all? Iv'e been testing one (for use with commercial groups) and i'm leaning towards thinking that they are a better (overall) device than a plb (at the stage they are at though I imagine even better is not far off) and i dont fully understand how the system is operating (have asked though they seem to have their hands full atm)

I find this interesting also (not the part about laying blame and (mostly) not the part that involves drawing conclusions, though it is difficult some times)

[Flyboy]

Hi Michael.

In response to your response...

a number of people on here tried to warn Breminator about what he was facing. It is not just a case of knowing after the event.

I know. I never said that some people weren't cautious. I simply said to Breminator that he should remember that the people who jump up and down with comments like "hopefully now they will listen" and berate him on a public forum would also most likely be the ones saying how great an idea it was had he been successful.

Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but that is different from taking on something that is way over your head, which is what Breminator did.

I assume you are an experienced SW walker. Everytime you walk, you run the risk of breaking your leg and requiring an expensive, taxpayer funded airlift. I see no difference between that and Breminator's escape route being cut-off by rising water.

Carrying out a rescue never places lives at potential risk? Perhaps you should read the following account of the work done by one helicopter crew in the 1998 Sydney to Hobart and then write to them and tell them there was no substantial risk to their safety

Yes, sounds like a hard night at the office. Hovering up and down during extraction is trained. The aircraft has multiple advanced systems to assist with this. It is multi-engined for redundancy. It carries the required fuel plus significant fixed and variable reserves. Yes they did a wonderful job in difficult conditions, but doesn't mean they were within inches of losing their own lives. In fact, as a medivac pilot, had I taken risks which endangered my own life and that of my crew, I would have promptly been grounded for a few weeks before receiving extensive retraining. Doing a job which is hard and which members of the public thinks was very brave, doesn't automatically mean the crew's lives were immediately at stake.

Also, there are many people in here with incredible experience and skill that the Breminator will take years to acquire. To dismiss their views as being those of 'armchair experts' is insulting.

Yes, I think I acknowledged the amazing experience of many on this forum. I also openly admitted how little experience I have. The armchair experts comment referred to people discussing SAR who have no understanding of how it works, and more importantly, have no understanding of how damaging comments about how much it costs taxpayers could potentially be.

The most terrible outcome would be if a dead body is now retrieved from the SW and it is discovered that a beacon was not carried or activated because of comments which had been read on this forum.

Take a beacon. If you need to use it, use it. End of story.

[Michael_Kingston]

I don't disagree with taking a beacon Flyboy - in fact I take one with me. What I do disagree with is people who take on a challenge WAY over their head and manifestly have inadequate experience and skill. To attempt the trip that Breminator did, with no real off track walking experience in SW Tasmania (which he has admitted), is irresponsible. You cannot compare his actions with someone who is adequately prepared and appropriately experienced who breaks a leg.

As for the Sydney - Hobart rescue, I didn't say they were inches away from death. I pointed out that there WAS real risk involved in what they did.

You are not seriously arguing there was NO real risk involved in flying an operation like that in over 100 knot winds and waves upto 8 metres? Still, if you think that the Careflight crew weren't at risk, what about the Victorian Police chopper crew in the same race? They nearly died trying to get their chopper back after rescuing a yachtie (despite all the multiple back ups and fuel reserves you talk about).

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/da ... 1118408328

Or have a read of these:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/05/30/o ... .accident/
http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Nationa ... 92401.html
http://coastguardnews.com/coast-guard-r ... 008/10/29/

[Flyboy]

Hi Michael.

I'm not going to sit here and argue with you the risks associated with aviation search and rescue operations. Might I suggest that you don't try and argue your point with knowledge based only on trumped up, sensationalised newspaper articles.

In fact, if you had the first idea about it, you'd realise that this particular pilot would have had 115 knot tailwinds on the way there before returning in them. He should have realised that stronger than forecast winds on the way there means stronger than forecast headwinds on the way home - and immediately recalculated fuel for the return based on these known winds, electing a much earlier depart by time. In fact, I'm quite confident he was probably retrained on fuel management.

Things are not always as simple as they seem.

All jobs involve risk. A secretary could get electrocuted to death switching on a computer. Aviation SAR is no more dangerous than the thousands of police officers who strap a gun to their hip and protect our country every day.

Should a bank with insufficient security preparation not call the police during a robbery because it might put the officers at risk?

[Michael_Kingston]

You are right Flyboy, things are not always as simple as they seem .. and this appears to have been Breminators problem. He did not have the skill or personal experience to realise what he was taking on and he put himself at unacceptable risk because of it. He also did not wait for the river level to drop and see if he could retreat despite having a large number of days of food - anyone with experience in SW Tasmania knows that waiting for river levels is part of walking down there. They rise and fall incredibly quickly.

As for the Victorian police rescue chopper, read their own account of the situation and tell me there was no real danger or risk. Perhaps you could write them an email telling them they weren't at risk and that they are sensationalising and trumping up what they have done:

http://airwing.uplink.com.au/index.cgi?page=6

And for your last point, I have never said that Breminator should not have used the PLB. I have said that he should never have gotten himself into the position where he needed to use it. He had no business doing what he was doing given his skills and experience.

And if a bank had insufficient security preparation I would expect a prosecution of the bank under workplace health and safety laws for failing to maintain a safe work environment for the staff (this has happened where businesses have been robbed and been found not to have appropriate security measures in place to protect staff). The police should still attend the robbery, but the bank would almost certainly suffer a consequence for its lack of preparation (unlike Breminator).

[photohiker]

With all due respect to Michael and Flyboy, the pilot's account is considerably more balanced than the newspaper sensation. What happened to the 40 seconds of fuel story?

The Sydney to Hobart operation was an extraordinary event. It is clear that considerable risk was taken by the helicopter crew to save people's lives. This was hardly a routine S&R operation, and one in which the crew performed in some of the most difficult circumstances possible. Would this be considered 'above and beyond'?

Flyboy, thanks for taking the time to bring us your S&R knowledge and experience. I for one value your input highly.

[Michael_Kingston]

Photohiker .. you are right that the pilot story is more balanced. I looked for it and posted it because Flyboy was dismissive of the newspaper article.

But the whole point is that they did put themself at risk, just as I (and you) have said. Can't understand why Flyboy won't acknowledge this....

[photohiker]

I think he did: "All jobs involve risk" I'm sure Flyboy sees both sides of the story presented to the public by the media on a regular basis. You can't really blame him for being dismissive of them.

I would imagine that at some point it is the pilot's decision whether the risks are becoming unmanageable.

[Michael_Kingston]

I am not sure he did really acknowledge the real risk involved in what they did .. he makes the really trite argument that a secretary could be electrocuted. From a risk perspective there has got to be a difference between knowingly flying into the conditions that the chopper crew did and working in an office where the electrical equipment has been checked and tagged.

[tasadam]

People still persist in arguing on this topic and running the real risk of seeing it locked. Nik and I have discussed this topic many times but feel there is more good to the forum by keeping it open.

Sticking to the point and stopping so much flawed disagreeing about things that are little to do with the topic will go a long way to achieving that.
You may argue that a chopper flight in a 1998 race in a storm is relevant to a chopper flight in fine weather to a small clearing on a ridge. And we may delete that argument.

Michael K, you say

Can't understand why Flyboy won't acknowledge this.

To quote Flyboy -

I'm not going to sit here and argue with you the risks associated with aviation search and rescue operations

Thank you, who needs arguing? Not here, anyhow.
Flyboy did sum it up rather nicely though, with

Take a beacon. If you need to use it, use it. End of story.

The thing I don't get... Some people here keep drumming the points about would they have gone that far if they didn't have a beacon, or that they were told they were too inexperienced and went anyway.
Both these are facts, are you waiting for someone to say Yes, you are right, I agree with what you are saying?
So why drum this discussion so strongly and repetetetetively?

If they had almost made it, say a day to walk with 3 days food left, and broke a leg and needed rescuing, would there be criticism for needing rescuing under those circumstances?
In my view there is no difference because the facts remain, they went for a walk, they (for some reason, any reason) needed extraction.
It's not like they didn't have the correct equipment with them or got lost or some other trivial reason for needing to fire the beacon.

That tourist that set off a PLB on the west coast a few years ago because he had a flat tyre must be keeping a pretty low profile if he's reading this. Or any of the many lesser needed extractions than this one. What about the many thousands of dollars and man hours that would have been spent looking for some guy, I think it was about 15 years ago, as I remember it he and his wife were walking when he decided to head to PB for a day walk, under prepared, went mossing for something like more than a week, and walked out... Not much heard about that one either.

[ILUVSWTAS]

The famous Ben Maloney?? what was it 38 days lost in the southwest living off mushrooms and moss?? Walked out to cockle creek a little skinny but otherwise relatively fine?? He's lying low cause he's living off the money he made selling his story to the media! If this is the one you were referring to Adam there was alot of doubts about his story....

Anyway Im all for locking this topic, it's grown stale and points already made are being re-made in negative forms

[Flyboy]

Hi Michael.

I seem to have got my point across because now I completely agree with one statement in your last post. In particular, the bit I have bolded:

He did not have the skill or personal experience to realise what HE was taking on and he put HIMSELF at unacceptable risk because of it.

Not the SAR team, HIMSELF (which is of course, entirely his right to do).

On another note Michael, I'd really like to pick your brain and that of others on this forum with a lot of SW experience. Unfortunately 1xOLT and 1x Frenchman's Cap is all I've got to my name, and am thinking of getting a bit more serious next January when I'm in Tasmania so I'll let you know. Despite our differences, would be great to learn the ropes on a more complex walk with you.

[Michael_Kingston]

Truce called.

[Drifting]

we did come second to nature

No one beats Nature, they just gain indulgence from her. Anyone who's spent a bit of time out there's bought a bit of forgiveness from Mother Nature. I certainly have. A LOT in fact.

Two men I greatly, GREATLY admire, and if I were younger would aspire to be more like, Olegas Truchanas and Peter Dombrovskis, both passed away doing something, well...questionably safe. and yet they are seen as true heros.

The fact is that one man's dumb is another man's brave is another man's reckless is another man's way of life.

I admire the guys'...well...um...bravado. I'd never do it, but then the World would be a pretty dull place if everyone did just what I did.

[Dave Bremers]

With regards to locking this topic, I think some valuable opinions are still coming out of it (from pilots/winch operators etc.) but a lot of it is back-and-forth arguing which will never be resolved. I am against the principle of locking topics - I think people will have enough of posting sooner or later - but it may be necessary. I've said my side of the story, and because of the length of the topic many arguments from both sides are being repeated over and over. I feel personally I have nothing more to say that is directly related to the trip that isn't already in here somewhere. Posts about S&R operations are very interesting but probably a discussion for another topic. To lock or not to lock?

[Drifting]

Actually, it raises many interesting points for discussion- some at your expense, others not. Such as:

-Should ANYONE go into what little Wilderness we have left? Shouldn't something be left completely untouched?

-Should there be a negilgence test for repaying SAR trips (not saying you were negligent)?

-What would we, as members of this forum, say to someone, say hypothetically, like Olegas Truchanas, if he was telling us of one of his planned trips? I know I, for one, would think he was a bit loopy. Have we lost touch with what REAL adventure is? Where would we be if Neil Armstrong or Edmond Hillary had listened to their critics? Or Columbus? (Well- that might be as discussion better skipped...)

-Exuberant youth- is it to be condemned as folly or applauded as confident and "Give it a go" mentality? Do we as a society foster a sense of recklessness in our youth, or do we teach proper caution? If so, why do outdoor ed classes keep having to be rescued....

And so on. People just have to be mature and respectful. LET THOSE WHO HAVE NOT SINNED CAST THE FIRST STONE. I have certainly had my moments, and actually screwed up on a far more impressive scale than brem....

[Dave Bremers]

Hmmm, now you mention those are good points. Lets leave it open.

[ILUVSWTAS]

I was curious to find in my copy of Southwest Tasmania A land of the wild. By David Neilson that in the Federation peak section it mentions this route was tried unsuccesfully in the 1930's by Mac Urquart and Geoff Chapman.
So Mr Bremer wasnt in the first party to attempt this route, wernt the first to fail either. Given the first attempt was in the 30's though i'd hazard at guessing the rescue out didnt involve a helicopter.....

[tas-man]

<SNIP>
-What would we, as members of this forum, say to someone, say hypothetically, like Olegas Truchanas, if he was telling us of one of his planned trips? I know I, for one, would think he was a bit loopy. Have we lost touch with what REAL adventure is? Where would we be if Neil Armstrong or Edmond Hillary had listened to their critics? Or Columbus? (Well- that might be as discussion better skipped...)

-Exuberant youth- is it to be condemned as folly or applauded as confident and "Give it a go" mentality? Do we as a society foster a sense of recklessness in our youth, or do we teach proper caution? If so, why do outdoor ed classes keep having to be rescued....

And so on. People just have to be mature and respectful. LET THOSE WHO HAVE NOT SINNED CAST THE FIRST STONE. I have certainly had my moments, and actually screwed up on a far more impressive scale than brem....

Your comments above brought back to mind the closing paragraphs of the book I have just re-read "The Year We Seized the Day" that I thanked brett for in another thread - worth quoting here where the author is standing on the tip of Cape Finisterre, the most western tip of Spain
". . . I marvel at the courage of the sailor brave enough to set out across uncharted waters in the hope of proving that there was, in fact, something out there - beyond the sea - worth finding and fighting for. Pegging his hope and belief (in himself) against a world full of sceptics, he pursued his dream regardless, and in 1492 Christopher Columbus discovered land and indeed changed the world. Who said it can't be done? In doing so he also proved that what we think we know is not always what is real. We are only bound by our own imagination. And that sometimes, what may appear to be the end is, in fact, the beginning of something better."

I am reminded of an ABC documentary in Australia's Bi-Centenary year in 1988, where 100 Australians aged 100 were interviewed and asked about their lives and experiences, and what they would do differently if they had their time over again, and the top comment was that they would TAKE MORE RISKS!

[Drifting]

I'm only 38, and I agree with the 100 100yo's! LOL

[stepbystep]

worth finding and fighting for. Pegging his hope and belief (in himself) against a world full of sceptics, he pursued his dream regardless, and in 1492 Christopher Columbus discovered land and indeed changed the world. Who said it can't be done? In doing so he also proved that what we think we know is not always what is real. We are only bound by our own imagination. And that sometimes, what may appear to be the end is, in fact, the beginning of something better."[/i]

Sorry tas-man, that thing worth fighting for, was indeed the destruction of a noble and ancient culture through abhorrent violence in the name of a European God - hardly something better Rather a perfect example of the greed and ego of men causing untold and irreparable damage, in so doing he confirmed what we should recognise about man is indeed real, what we find in the wilderness however is what I consider real nothing man can ever build/climb/conquer will ever compare, and the day will come when nature levels the playing field for all of us. Best not use barbarians as inspiration IMHO.
Mind you he did bring tomatoes back to the Italians, perhaps it was worth fighting for
sbs

[tasadam]

The famous Ben Maloney?? what was it 38 days lost in the southwest living off mushrooms and moss?? Walked out to cockle creek a little skinny but otherwise relatively fine?? He's lying low cause he's living off the money he made selling his story to the media! If this is the one you were referring to Adam there was alot of doubts about his story....

Anyway Im all for locking this topic, it's grown stale and points already made are being re-made in negative forms

I knew someone would know more about it than what I can remember from what was in the media at the time. I remember it was dodgy...

[ILUVSWTAS]

Very.....

[PeterJ]

The famous Ben Maloney?? what was it 38 days lost in the southwest living off mushrooms and moss??

And not to forget the episode at much the same time (Jan 2001) concerning David Howard, who became lost and spent 11 days off the side of the PB track. Howard just stopped in the one spot in the scrub and was waiting for his God to save him. I have forgotten the details but there was a large slice of luck involved in finding him.

[Drifting]

PB Track? What's that?

[PeterJ]

PB Track? What's that?

Sorry Precipitous Bluff track. He was out on the ridge beyond Pinders Pea on the Southern Ranges. Same track as Ben Maloney.