Another death on Overland Track

[matagi]

I guess it would seem strange to some of the mainland viewrs, Not at all to those of us who live and walk down here though.
We get snow every summer down here in Tassie, it's always a risk, and you should always factor in cold conditions on multiday walks.

Thanks. It's good information for us on the mainland who like to visit Tassie for the great outdoors.

We get snow on the Big Island as well during summer. Rapidly changing weather is a risk one must be aware of, and prepare for, in the alpine areas of NSW and VIC also.

[GPSGuided]

We get snow on the Big Island as well during summer. Rapidly changing weather is a risk one must be aware of, and prepare for, in the alpine areas of NSW and VIC also.

True, but that's the alpine area. Here we have Cradle Mtn, an area visited by countless tourists, often without preparation but for the summer heat.

[wayno]

the parks info seems to bury the information about extreme weather well into their info on the track on their main page,

all they have in the "what you'll need" for gear section is camping gear and gaiters....

http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/indeX.aspX?base=7827#3

it isnt that clear but there is a link to a gear checklist
http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/file.aspx?id=27929

[Strider]

the parks info seems to bury the information about extreme weather well into their info on the track on their main page,

all they have in the "what you'll need" for gear section is camping gear and gaiters....

http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/indeX.aspX?base=7827#3

it isnt that clear but there is a link to a gear checklist
http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/file.aspx?id=27929

First paragraph from that page:

The Overland Track is a significant undertaking. Travelling a distance of 65 kilometres through the heart of the Tasmanian Wilderness World Heritage Area, a large part of the track is above 1000 metres in elevation, on exposed plateaus, in a remote area. You need to be well-prepared.

[wayno]

yeah but do the words "exposed" register with people with cold weather, in aus exposed normally means exposed to the hot sun....

just another sunny summners day in tas...

[Strider]

Read on:

When to walk


Overland Track weather is notoriously unpredictable – and changes rapidly. Most walkers experience a bit of everything during their journey, regardless of the time of year:  sunshine, rain, wind and snow. Whilst more stable and warmer weather patterns occur from November to April, snow and sleet can – and do – occur in the height of summer.

[wayno]

yup. assuming everyone bothers to drill into the appropriate tab and read far enough, the default page has none of that information

[nickthetasmaniac]

Still, a bit of a surprise to hear a 21yo can die of hypothermia in that area in mid-summer.

I don't know your experience level, so I won't comment on that, but as I mentioned, I was on-track with a group that day and on reaching the hut my fingers were barely operable enough to undo my shoelaces, and we had the relative shelter of Du Cane Gap.

On the very exposed Cirque, with an uninjured member unable to move and, from reports, without adequate shelter, I find it no surprise at all.

In this day and age I think avoiding these sorts of tragedy is largely a function of the head one is allocated.

I think that's a massive over-simplification. The Overland Track is heavily promoted and known to a great deal of people, both keen walkers and people who've never walked in their life.

It's easy for people on a forum like this, where we are well aware of the risks and changeability of weather, to say "the information is there, people should be prepared", but for someone from, say, an urban background, why would they even look? It's summer, a week earlier it was 30+, why on earth would they be worried about hypothermia?

This issue is compounded in the days of open source info on the web. For instance, a party walk the Overland, have perfect weather and swim every day, then go on the Couchsurfing forums and offer advice along the lines of "PWS are just being paranoid, you don't need winter gear".

I've had guests turn up on trips without thermals because their friends had done the walk with sunny days and reckoned that our gear-list was silly.

You can't just say it's a "function of the head".

[wayno]

yesterday in lowland canterbury they had hailstones half an inch across, its the roaring forties, anything can happen any time of year but that information just isnt that abundant unless you know where to look for it.
what happens in nz is a lot of back packers often just plan on a whim, making up their mind at short notice, book a trip or just go out on one, don't do back ground research past looking at scenic photos and the bare minimum info required on how to get to the trip or book it and away they go.... we'd have a lot more problems on the tongariro crossing if all the shuttle operators werent voluntarily refusing to run when they decide the weather is too rough and on the days they do run, they can reject people they dont think are equipped for the conditions, although plenty of ill equipped people still take to the crossing which climbs to 1900 metres and is mainly devoid of bush cover
as nick says its summer, its hot most places, if you're not a local and you dont do your homework, an antarctic front is the last thing you'd be equiping yourself for...

[Nuts]

I think that was very much a precise statement Nik. The information is there, those people on that 'couch surfing forum' have chosen to take friends advice over that handed out by the park service. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility, at some point I think these things (if anything) are over-complicated.

It may sound callous (with the mention of these particular instances in the same discussion) but for everything that is gained to make way for an increasing need to nanny people something is taken away. Very often it seems, much of the remaining measure of personal responsibility. In many cases info and mindset is missed to make things easier, quicker, more comfortable. In others the info is missed to just keep them alive.. For all we know (in this case) it may have nothing to do with inadequate guidance.

I haven't guided (many) OL trips for several years but can say that camping with groups (week in and out) gives perhaps a unique perspective on how people learn and the level of personal responsibility present in everyday lives. Perhaps the next step Is some sort of regulation; anything more than a few dot points seems to be easily ignored (even by otherwise intelligent people). The info (like that arriving with OLT passes) is readily available. I think that is a good thing but it doesn't change the fact that Tas Parks can't go into peoples living rooms around the world and give them the mindset needed to look after themselves.

[whynotwalk]

the parks info seems to bury the information about extreme weather well into their info on the track on their main page,

all they have in the "what you'll need" for gear section is camping gear and gaiters....

http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/indeX.aspX?base=7827#3

it isnt that clear but there is a link to a gear checklist
http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/file.aspx?id=27929

I would have thought that graphic gives people a clear idea of what they should take - and being in cartoon style is easy to understand even if English isn't your first language.

And why we should take that sort of gear is clearly explained in the info. package that we all get if we book the Overland Track. It includes information on:

- frequent cold/wet/changeable weather
- essential clothing and equipment
- hypothermia

The information is there - on the website, in the booking package, at the visitor centre, in publications, in the words of Parks staff. We just don't always connect the words of advice/warning with the reality when it actually hits us.

cheers

Peter

[wayno]

thats not my point,, its a matter of getting to the link and using it in the first place, you have to actually click on the planning your trip tab first and borthering to read a long way down before you ever come to another link you have to click before you will even see the list, i wonder how many people get that far through the website versus those that don't
my tramping club had issues with ill equipped people so they put the link to the gear list on the front page of the club website so more people would read it..

[whynotwalk]

Looks like we crossed over there wayno. I was editing my post just as you were commenting on it. And my edit was to make the point that the info is widely available in many formats (web, print, video, podcasts, face-to-face), and not just on the website.

[wayno]

well on the tongariro crossing the bus drivers have even taken some responsibility for trying to ensure walkers are adequately equiped, theres plenty of information available about what to wear on that walk as well and they still turn up dressed for the beach. media info just never registers with a big enough portion of the public

[Taurë-rana]

I was walking in the cradle mountain area on Thursday, when these people died. I'm pretty shocked / sad. It was very windy and rained solidly, with poor visibility. It was cold, but not that cold - around 4 to 7 degrees. No snow, sleet or ice of any kind; not cold enough. So conditions were not that bad, and that tells us that something really has gone wrong. What gear did the group of students have? Were they trying to go up Barns Bluff? (crazy in that weather). We walked from Scott kilvert hut to dove lake, so we were in the same area. Very sad, and a real alarm bell on the risks

Everybody is different Tastrudger - at 4-7 degrees with the wrong clothes on with wind and rain, I suspect I would get hypothermia very quickly, even if I was moving. But some people have a better internal heater and would be fine.
I am with gregm, unless the good weather is guaranteed, which is rare, my day walk pack includes thermals, puffer jacket, goretex jacket and trousers, beanie, gloves, bivvy bag, jumper, fleece trousers, as well as a good first aid kit and PLB. I know just how quickly I cool down and I've often been very glad to have plenty of clothes with me, even just for sitting eating lunch. If I had an injury, even in 12 degrees I would be very miserable waiting for help without plenty of warm clothes, especially if it was wet and windy as well.

[slparker]

I was walking in the cradle mountain area on Thursday, when these people died. I'm pretty shocked / sad. It was very windy and rained solidly, with poor visibility. It was cold, but not that cold - around 4 to 7 degrees. No snow, sleet or ice of any kind; not cold enough. So conditions were not that bad, and that tells us that something really has gone wrong. What gear did the group of students have? Were they trying to go up Barns Bluff? (crazy in that weather). We walked from Scott kilvert hut to dove lake, so we were in the same area. Very sad, and a real alarm bell on the risks

Being injured adds a whole dimension to capacity to withstand hypothermia. Even if well prepared in relatively mild conditions it is possible to die quickly from injuries + cold weather. i imagine that if they were unprepared and unskilled about survival added to a severe injury to one of there party it is a real recipe for disaster...

in saying that I must admit that I rarely take a shelter with me on daywalks - fair enough I take warm and waterproof gear+ spare food but rarely a shelter - I guess it could have happened to me on some of my solo daywalks.

[sthughes]

Very sad, and a reality check for us all.

I've recently started carrying one of these: http://www.adventuremedicalkits.com/survival/shelter/survive-outdoors-longer-emergency-bivvy.html
At just over 100g and about $20 it's a light weight and cheap insurance policy.

Love the idea of narrative style warning signs, could make them a bit of a memorial as well. I imagine 99% of walkers in the area don't know the tragic Scott-Kilvert story either. I am certainly one person who pays almost no attention to 90% of today's warning signs, I guess I'm desensitized to them as they are everywhere. Like Ent, the Forth weir warning sign has much more impact on me (even if it is out of date entireley).

[stry]

I agree with both Nuts' posts.

Nick, if your guests were told told to bring thermals, and on the basis that you described, they didn't bring thermals; that is about as good an example as can be found of the "head" reference that Nuts made.

I have been on the OLT only once, but I was struck by the prevalence of warnings around the Visitor centre/start point. I'm sure the word "death" featured, but I may be wrong. There were heaps of warnings thrown at me as I worked through the online booking process.

If people choose to ignore all that and take a punt so be it, but the outcome of that punt is their responsibility, not the responsibility of Parks.

This is the case with a whole range of undertakings that are not 100% sterilized (bushwalking, caving, motorcycling, parachuting, rockclimbing, fishing, canoeing, and so on ad nauseum) Decisions are made by the participants and the participants must accept responsibility for their decision.

Officaldom has a responsibility to ensure that info is available for something like the OLT, that is promoted as an attraction, but the decision to undertake the walk remains the responsibility of the walker(s)

To quote (I don't remember who) "There is none so blind as he who will not see".

Only so much can be done. On my trip in late Feb, I saw many who would have been rather busy if the weather had turned and caught them away from shelter. The backpackers in particular had bugger all of anything. I have seen, on another trip, a parent with two young children (say 8 y/o) in summer shorts etc at Marions lookout, with absolutely nothing except the clothes they wore. With the numbers on the track and the level of prep that I saw, the only surprise is that more people don't die.

To conclude, these thoughts should not be read as a judgement on either of the recent fatalities, as I have no exact knowledge of the circumstances of those fatalities.

[nickthetasmaniac]

I think that was very much a precise statement Nik. The information is there, those people on that 'couch surfing forum' have chosen to take friends advice over that handed out by the park service. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility, at some point I think these things (if anything) are over-complicated.

It may sound callous (with the mention of these particular instances in the same discussion) but for everything that is gained to make way for an increasing need to nanny people something is taken away. Very often it seems, much of the remaining measure of personal responsibility. In many cases info and mindset is missed to make things easier, quicker, more comfortable. In others the info is missed to just keep them alive.. For all we know (in this case) it may have nothing to do with inadequate guidance.

...The info (like that arriving with OLT passes) is readily available. I think that is a good thing but it doesn't change the fact that Tas Parks can't go into peoples living rooms around the world and give them the mindset needed to look after themselves.

This is all true, but on the other hand, if Tas Parks are going to promote the walk internationally, then I think they have to accept a degree of responsibility that some of the people will be coming from places without a strong hiking culture or personal hiking experience, and quite possibly from cultures without our respect for experienced authority telling you what to do.

By all means, say nothing about places like the Southwest and expect that people going there will take personal responsibility for their welfare. But if the Overland is going to be marketed as it is, then we need to accept that some people are going to end up on the track who have no idea what their doing.

I don't know what the solution is, but history and personal experience have shown that the warnings as they are simply aren't heeded by a small but persistent number of walkers.

[doogs]

Install televisions on the shuttle buses with videos of how atrocious the weather can be year round = Forced watching..

[wayno]

unless you have someone standing at the start of the track inspecting everyones gear and stopping the ill prepared from going, you're never going to stop ill prepared from getting on the tracks.
people have been seen with suitcases on nz tracks and shopping bags. i see so many people high in the mountains just dressed like they would be for around town, if you dont do your homework thats what happens...

[stry]

unless you have someone standing at the start of the track inspecting everyones gear and stopping the ill prepared from going, you're never going to stop ill prepared from getting on the tracks.
people have been seen with suitcases on nz tracks and shopping bags. i see so many people high in the mountains just dressed like they would be for around town, if you dont do your homework thats what happens...

That really is the bottom line Wayno. I agree.

[wayno]

remember cotton is a killer. its no good having insulation layers if you have a damp or soaked cotton shirt or jeans on underneath. water sucks heat out of your body twenty times faster than air.... don't wear cotton. polypropylene or merino base layers are preferable, they dry infinitely faster than cotton... once cotton is wet, nothing short of a fire or a hot sunny day will dry it out...

[Nuts]

.... but on the other hand, if Tas Parks are going to promote the walk internationally, then I think they have to accept a degree of responsibility that some of the people will be coming from places without a strong hiking culture or personal hiking experience, and quite possibly from cultures without our respect for experienced authority telling you what to do.

I know it's hard to separate and it can be seen that even having info on their website is 'promotion' but in fact Tourism Tas are supposed to be promoting tourism. In reality I suspect it's as much commercial advertisers as anyone. Tour companies advertising wherever they can and media selling the 'best ten'. For the OLT, it also really advertises itself through the many blogs and website comments, reviews, trip reports. Tas Parks and their given budget can probably only ever hope to respond. Perhaps a 'response' is the extent of what we should expect?

Always with these incidents the park services are under pressure to react. What do we really want them to do?
Local actions for education and turning people back aren't ideal, some have come from OS just for this walk. Who decides what gear is acceptable?, who takes the responsibility from walkers to tell them what gear they should have?

Don't get me wrong, if there is something missing in the current system then I'm with others in wanting to know where and how things can be improved. There are some good comments to ponder; how do they get across what TA says about everyone reacting differently to cold? It's also easy, even for experienced walkers, to forget just how miserable they can get when cold and damp (especially after that hot shower ). On top of that +5c as a forecast sounds cold but how many would take into account wind-chill, the temp (given those winds) could more realistically be reported as -5c.. this fact alone could cause poor planning.

That said, If someone or something has failed at some stage then they should be held to account or the info improved.. Personally though, I think many of the problems occur well before Tas Parks can ever hope to play a role, especially more wide scale than our most popular track.

[GPSGuided]

Feel sorry for the Tasmanian parks services for being blamed. Being Chinese tourists, there's every possibility that they accessed non-English info source in their planning. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the park services to put out a multi-lingual web site. Yet again, it may bring a heck of a lot more tourists to Tasmania, like what QLD has done for Cairns. Some local may want the business while others may want to keep the outsiders out. That's an issue Tassie locals to sort out.

[wayno]

nz metservice mountain forecasts recently changed to issue a windchill temp in preference to actual air temp, gives various locations in a park at various altitudes on the more popular tracks to give an idea of what to expect.
so you've got a few degrees at red crater at the top of the tongariro crossing. i guess its to encourage people to dress more for the conditions when they see the colder wind chill temp than the actual air temp, this winter will be interesting to see if they have to rescue the usual no of hypothermic cases. last year there was a mass rescue of 15 people in one day..

http://www.metservice.com/mountain/aora ... ional-park

[icefest]

Are you saying that my maroon pinstripe cotton tweed high-low tuxedo with corduroy Welsh Augustines on the lateral trouser hems is not appropriate attire for an evening stroll alongst the maligned Barn Bluff cirque?

In all seriousness, there is only so much that can be done. Few people are illiterate enough for a sign not to work (excepting willful ignorance).

EDIT:
Mountain-forecast report windchill on their website too.

[wayno]

summer weather just south of nz, wind gust 170km
includes video footage of the sea....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9762410 ... Wellington

[Dolerite Walker]

Sadly many folks show a limited capacity to respond to bad/changing weather. Which is why you see people tearing along highways at 110km/hr despite heavy rain. An unfortunate tragedy. Ultimately each individual is responsible for the consequences of their actions.

[GPSGuided]

Sadly many folks show a limited capacity to respond to bad/changing weather. Which is why you see people tearing along highways at 110km/hr despite heavy rain. An unfortunate tragedy. Ultimately each individual is responsible for the consequences of their actions.

Not sure that 110km/h analogy is a good one. On the Autobahn, dropping to 110km/h is already considered to be a "safe speed" for a well designed modern car in "heavy" rain. If the rain is truly heavy, perhaps driving is already an excess. Not appropriate to brand all people who drive at 110km/h in "heavy" rain as irresponsible.