Are Some Experinced Tasi Walkers Mad Or Just Masochists!

[Taurë-rana]

... on day 6 I pull out the smarties and toblerone and drinking chocolate and sit back reading my book with a glass of scotch........

Hmm... how would you like to come on my next walk?

[ILUVSWTAS]

Haha To the Pleiades?? Dont tease me......

[Tony]

Thats the point isnt it, experience will tell all. I did an 8-10 day trip recently and carried 26kg. But I had a book on standby and lots of luxury items. At the end of the day it comes down to knowing what you NEED to carry and what extra you WANT or maybe more importantly are capable of carrying!

Im jealous of guys who can carry 15kg for a 10 day trip. but im sure they are jealous of me when on day 6 I pull out the smarties and toblerone and drinking chocolate and sit back reading my book with a glass of scotch........

I think it depends on what you want from bushwalking, if you want a three course meal with wine, mood lighting and the comforts of home why spend an uncomfortable day or days carrying a heavy pack, why not stay at home or go car camping. I go bushwalking to do that bushwalking and for me as my pack has been getting lighter and the more minimalist I am going the more enjoyment I am getting out of my bushwalking. (And BTW I still have my chocolate bars, drinking chocolate and a sip of port.)

Tony

[ILUVSWTAS]

I just figure while im young fit and strong I'll carry a few extra comforts. Im sure like others here when I get old I'll start to lighten my gear right up!
Until then I have no problem carrying 20-24kg.

[Tony]

I just figure while im young fit and strong I'll carry a few extra comforts. Im sure like others here when I get old I'll start to lighten my gear right up!
Until then I have no problem carrying 20-24kg.

Are you calling me old.

On a serious note I am impressed by the numbers of younger walkers on bushwalk.com who practice lightweight bushwalking.

Tony

[ILUVSWTAS]

Hehehe maybe.....

Yeh I walk with a few guys around my own age that carry around 14kg for multinight walks.

[ollster]

Hehehe maybe.....

Yeh I walk with a few guys around my own age that carry around 14kg for multinight walks.

I reckon I'll be carrying abotu 30kgs into PV this weekend. I'll need a stiff drink or 3 after (however far I get up) Geryon Sth.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Hehehe yeh I hear ya.... sadly my plans have changed and it's looking like im gonna have to drive up at 9pm and walk the track by torch. probably wont make it to PV until 3am. I may have to reconsider how much im going to carry......

[ollster]

Hehehe yeh I hear ya.... sadly my plans have changed and it's looking like im gonna have to drive up at 9pm and walk the track by torch. probably wont make it to PV until 3am. I may have to reconsider how much im going to carry......

Better off walking to Narcissus and making an early start on the Sat. We can put off leaving until 10am or something.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Yeh Stu said the same thing, see how the legs and mind are going at the time I guess.......

[Ent]

Personal experience with a newbie walker to Tassie was the constant question should they take a tent for the OLT given the availability of huts and their willingness to use them.

Now for me the answer is simple take the lightest four season shelter I have for the number of people. So if solo the Hilleberg Akto at 1.6kilograms or maybe just the fly and ground sheet but what is a few extra hundred grams in the deal, or there was two to three people willing to share a shelter in emergency then the MD Kaon at 2.5 kilograms. The plan is to use the huts so the shelter is more a fall back rather than a thing for comfort.

Now that person had a 2/3 person tent at around three kilograms. It was an inner then outer pitch so no chance of taking the fly alone. My recommendation was to take the tent fully expecting it never to be used and sure enough it was not. That is the issue that us Tasmanians face when meeting people determined to walk the high tracks of Tassie that have not done much walking in colder climates at altitude.

For the overly sensitive UL walker out there I am not saying what a shelter should be, all I am saying is should it not be reasonable advice that a walker carries a shelter that they are comfortable with that can handle four season weather conditions, whatever that might be. Remember you are not buying their gear as the tourists have already turned up with it. A point sadly missed by the creator of this thread and rather hackneyed type of approach so favoured by the ACA of the world. In my personal experience people have turned up with over five kilogram monsters planning to lug them. Same thing with someone carrying a over two kilogram sleeping bag planning to ditch it for sleeping in a silk sleeping bag liner because on the coast it is a balmy 20 degree plus day.

Maybe our Tasmanian experience walkers are mad simply because they are the people that form the search and rescue parties when things go wrong or feed up with paying for extractions of walkers with hypothermia from "extremely dangerous" places as the top of Marions lookout I live in the two main starting points for people landing in Tassie looking to do the OLT and constantly overhear conversations in the various shops as the "experienced" shop assistances struggle to get some tourists to understand what is required. As for the 3 season advice that abounds for the OLT, I, as a local, question that unless someone can point to a month that it not has snowed in the last ten years as my experience is every month can and has been four seasons up in the highlands. Sure post away with critical comments and lobby the moderators but the above is an all to uncommon occurrence that dominates news. Also note I make no assumption on what is four seasons gear merely that it should be four season capable in the hands of the intended user.

Cheers Brett

[ollster]

the above is an all to uncommon occurrence that dominates news.

Yup, agree. Personally if I don't expect poor/freezing weather, I carry gear to cope with it. If I do expect those conditions I carry gear so that I'll be more than comfortable in those conditions.

Can't stand the idea of not being able to cope with "any conditions", estimating carried gear based on anything less is just silly.

[Tony]

Hi Brett,

I am struggling to understand what you are trying to get to. I will ask my question again.

Is it safer for a 60kg female new to bushwalking to carry around 30kg than around 15kg.

A yes or no answer would do.

Tony

[sef]

I mean no offense, but your simplification of the issue is ridiculous. All other things are not equal. If you absolutely must have an answer, for reasons covered exhaustively in this thread and I don't doubt dozens of others, it's no. In the absence of any other information, a new starter would be better off having something than not, and something over rather than under spec'd.

[Ent]

Hi Tony

Struggling err? Well in the absence of what was carried an why that makes two of us. Basically someone turns up with a five kilogram tent and two kilogram sleeping bag and stainless steel knock off of a Trangi with a four and half kilogram travelling pack, woollen jumper for warmth, etc, etc, you get the drift and then says I am heading out tomorrow for my first multi-walk in some of the more exposed areas of Tassie what do you do given that more than likely they will be flying out straight after the walk and you do not run a equipment supply business. What is the recommendation, carry all the weight or not go. Simple answer do not go but I tell you from experience that does not fly. Ok what to leave out? Not my madness they brought the stuff but in my personal opinion leaving any of the items mentioned behind is stark raving bonkers advice. That is the scenario that apparently confronted the mentally disturbed experienced Tassie bushwalkers slammed in the opening post in the absence of a detailed list what was carried. Remember Tony the deranged Tassie bushwalkers were not in the shop buying the stuff instead merely left with the problem of someone turning up with it. Oh and yes I have witness the above and much worst. Anyone for suitcases and the OLT or using a Kathmandu shopping bag as a day pack for a wander from Vera to Frenchmans Cap and back?

As for people claiming Tassie has only three seasons in the alpine areas for some months I say again, and again, and again, show me a month that it has never snowed in the last ten years. It is not unseasonable or unexpected for it to snow in any month in Tassie at altitude along with bushwalkers alerts so if heading out for even an overnight walk not prepared for surviving such an event is courting a search and rescue operation and on a eight night walk putting extraordinary faith in the Weather Bureau. Yes people have been dragged off the top of Marions Lookout after a day walk that went wrong with exposure so lets not underplay the importance variable weather has in Tassie. I have been frozen by driving rain and snow and then on the next day walked in high twenties to low thirties heat with the advice from the Weather Bureau being stable and calm conditions with low possibility of light showers in the elevated areas.

And to answer your question, the choice faced by the sadistic experienced Tassie walkers was likely the lesser of two evils, over loaded or under-prepared and while 29.5 kilograms as a percentage of the person's body-mass is extreme there are plenty of people that can and do that regularly. I would not but then again I do not smoke nor base jump but many other people do.

Oh yes do publish who they were so they can give their reasons as I am sure they would like to explain the facts they encountered.

Cheers Brett

[Nuts]

I'd suggest that there is even room for those who like to think they are prepared for anything to be moreso. It's possible for some to be cold in a (certified) minus -9 sleeping bag in a summer cold snap. Which would they carry? -1 might cover 7/10days, -9, 8/10 or they could carry a -12 (or -18) or they could hedge their bets on what the weather is 'likely' to do.. (like i expect everyone here would)... afterall, they might have a cold night here and there but they aint going to perish. There is a great variation in comfort levels, from what iv'e seen in general 'newbies' Do carry too much. They quickly learn by experience, if they dont give up going bush after the first attempt.... or havent suffered a lasting injury... I dont think that i have seen any of the lightweight gear examples here on the forum which would leave anyone in danger? uncomfortable perhaps...

[Tony]

Hi sef,

I mean no offense, but your simplification of the issue is ridiculous. All other things are not equal. If you absolutely must have an answer, for reasons covered exhaustively in this thread and I don't doubt dozens of others, it's no. In the absence of any other information, a new starter would be better off having something than not, and something over rather than under spec'd.

Thankyou for your views but with all due respect, my "riduculous simplification" is about the core issue of this thread, "is it safe for a 60kg new bushwalker to carry 29.5kg".

My point is that if a newbie bushwalker reads this thread and gets the impression that 50% of body weight is ok, it is a recipe for disaster, the scientific evidence is very clear "the increase in weight, the increase in injuries" not to mention the comfort factor.

Leaving the lightweight debate aside, you can get a lot of very good traditional Tasmanian suitable gear that can be used in the 8 day 15kg kit (includes food).

In my opinion it is very irresponsible to suggest that bushwalking with 50% of body weight is ok and I cannot believe that any experience walker traditional or LW would do so.


Tony

[Son of a Beach]

I think everyone agrees that a lighter load is better, all else being equal.

However in the context of the original post of this topic, it is unclear what the alternatives were. In the most extreme possibility of no alternative but to cancel the walk (eg due to no other gear available in the time/places accessible) then should the advice be to carry the gear or not go at all?

As it is, it appears to me that there is insufficient information to draw any real conclusions about the original post here. This appears to be causing people to debate different points, with different priorities, and raising questions that are different to the OP.

Both sides of the argument here need to tread carefully, respect each other, and remain polite and friendly.

Offending accounts or their posts may be edited deleted or suspended (this is a pre-empive warning not aimed at anyone in particular).

[Tony]

Hi Brett,

Hi Tony

As for people claiming Tassie has only three seasons in the alpine areas for some months I say again, and again, and again, show me a month that it has never snowed in the last ten years. It is not unseasonable or unexpected for it to snow in any month in Tassie at altitude along with bushwalkers alerts so if heading out for even an overnight walk not prepared for surviving such an event is courting a search and rescue operation and on a eight night walk putting extraordinary faith in the Weather Bureau. Yes people have been dragged off the top of Marions Lookout after a day walk that went wrong with exposure so lets not underplay the importance variable weather has in Tassie. I have been frozen by driving rain and snow and then on the next day walked in high twenties to low thirties heat with the advice from the Weather Bureau being stable and calm conditions with low possibility of light showers in the elevated areas.
Cheers Brett

These conditions that you talk about are not only experienced in Tasmania, by world standards Tasmania has a mild climate.

I did the OT in October and experience all conditions, yes it was very wet, very cold, very windy and it snowed and one day we saw some sun, even in my traditional walking days my pack weight for that trip was only 17kg

I understand what you are trying to say. Have you ever walked in the Australian Alps, I do most of my walking in the Alps and I have experience temperatures down to -20C, horizontal hail and snow in summer, winds so strong that standing is nearly impossible, both in winter and summer, I experience thunder storms on a regular occurrence.

I know people that take a 5lb (2.5kg) kit into Yellowstone in mid winter where the min temps in Tasmania are the max temps they experience. My Mid winter Australian Alps three day pack weights in at around 11kg icluding food for two.

Tony

[Nuts]

The OP kinda hints at the alternatives even with the couple of things mentioned....

Two litres of white spirits, carefully used that could cover cooking for a group of ten for ten days with some spare (it does)...

Now, If a newbie, yes they could waste some, they could stop every five minutes for a cuppa, they could be covered if they loose their way for a month, they could find a group that had run out and needed help, hey, they could even spill half I guess there Is a way to justify this choice over (say) 1L....

[Joel]

for extractions of walkers with hypothermia from "extremely dangerous" places as the top of Marions lookout

Sorry Brett, when exactly did this happen?

Unless I'm mistaken, you seem to be making things up.

Last edited by Joel on Sun 21 Mar, 2010 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Joel]

These conditions that you talk about are not only experienced in Tasmania, by world standards Tasmania has a mild climate.

This is very accurate. Some of you blokes make out bushwalking in Tasmania is like crossing Antarctica. There are many, many place around the world that have far harsher conditions than Tas. Including our neighbours in New Zealand. We do not have extremely cold conditions and we also do not have to contend with altitude.

[Jellybean]

These conditions that you talk about are not only experienced in Tasmania, by world standards Tasmania has a mild climate.

This is very accurate. Some of you blokes make out bushwalking in Tasmania is like crossing Antarctica. There are many, many place around the world that have far harsher conditions than Tas. Including our neighbours in New Zealand. We do not have extremely cold conditions and we also do not have to contend with altitude.

Touche' Joel. I have to agree.

[ollster]

Some of you blokes make out bushwalking in Tasmania is like crossing Antarctica.

There are a couple of things I would say bear consideration - that the weather is quite unpredictable at times, and that because Tas is a low altitude area, people assume that the weather will be "ok".

[Son of a Beach]

I do agree that Tasmanian weather is a lot less extreme that many other places. However, a lot of people that go walking here are very much unprepared for what we do have. I think we're getting a bit off topic though.

[Son of a Beach]

for extractions of walkers with hypothermia from "extremely dangerous" places as the top of Marions lookout

Sorry Brett, when exactly did this happen?

Unless I'm mistaken, you seem to be making things up.

I remember hearing about this - not all that long ago. I did a quick Google search and found a reference to it on Storm Planet (an Australian weather website). Seems the helicopter couldn't get them out due to bad weather, but they had set of an EPIRB near Marions, and had to be rescued...

Unbeknown to us on this day, two walkers had set off their EPIRB beacon yesterday (May 2nd, 2006) afternoon, after setting off from Cradle to complete the Overland Trek, and the signal indicated that they were near Marions Peak. Search and Rescue (Police, SES, NPAW) had a small team dispatched and by the following day, a full search and rescue operation was underway. A helicopter was called for but we were experiencing a blizzard and there was no way that they were going to fly a chopper there in such conditions.

The following day we set off for Kitchen Hut via Marions Peak, believing that now that the cold front had passed we might be able to get some walking under our belts. We still weren't aware of any search and rescue operations as we headed for Marions. The conditions were fairly miserable, the snow had abated but the rain, sleet and graupal never ceased and as we started to climb the peak, the winds became much stronger. Climbing to the lookout on Marions Peak was difficult, with a full pack it was a job to stay upright with the driving winds, I had my Kestrel with me, I measured winds at 72kmh over the space of a couple of minutes, but the gusts would have been around 50% higher again.

So, we decided not to go on and commenced our descent, meeting up with a couple of walkers attempting a day walk from Cradle. They advised us that there was a search and rescue operation underway for 2 walkers that had gone missing yesterday, and we advised them that the climb to Marions was pretty *&%$#! awful and none too safe. We returned to Cradle via Wombat Pool and spent the afternoon in the Cradle Mountain Lodge bar, of course...

During the afternoon we found out that the two missing walkers had been located, by chance, safe and well by a Victorian bushwalker. As it turned out, they were not far from Marions Peak and were found on the same track we were on, not long after we were there! We were surprised by this as we'd not seen them, but the visibility was poor and it would have been difficult to hear them under such conditions. Had we stayed on longer or set off on the walk half an hour earlier, we probably would have come across the lost walkers ourselves.

[Ent]

Thank Nik for tracking down that reference. I heard it on the radio and it was then restated to me by one of the bus drivers that does the shuttle service from the car park to Dove Lake. Search and Rescue keep a low reporting profile on rescues and unless a death occurs not much fuss is made in the media. Similar to many car accidents. Ambulance comes, ambulance goes and patients are released after observation from the hospital with nar a mention made in the newspaper. Big story to you if it happens frequently on your street corner but not so much to the person in the next town.

Joel a bit of research into the names around Cradle gives an insight into tragedies that have happened in what Parks and Wildlife consider is a day use area. Hanson Peak named after a young prospector that died of exposure. Scott-Kilvett hut after a teacher and student that died from exposure on a day walk. On a warm summer day it is hard to comprehend how important that the humble historic boat shed was to saving the lives of a fellow teacher and students. Contrary to what you wrote I did not make this up and find you inference unfortunate and hope that you will take the time to correct it.

A rule of thumb is for every 100 metres expect the temperature to drop by around one degree centigrade. Much the same rule of thumb exists for wind chill along with if the body is wet or dry. Nothing more than a cheap light weight outer shell could save your life or make you more comfortable and that can be as humble as a 93 gram $9.99 emergency bag or even a plastic garbage bag. Makes more sense to have shell the in the form of a garment and the more breathable the garment the better for comfort but that is when the cost rises along with personal evaluation on how tough the outer shell needs to be, etc, etc but when walking in Tassie at altitude some form of outer shell is sensible, especially on multi-day walks. I fully agree they are are many better alternatives than an oil skin japhra but if that is all a person has then that will do nicely (ps I miss my wool lined one but it did weight a bit).

As for the mildness of the Tassie climate this has probably resulted in nearly all under prepared experiencing nothing more than a colder, wetter and uncomfortable trip than would have otherwise been the case. However the same time this mildness lures people into a false sense of safety. You will see people heading from the coast for a day walk to the top of Cradle dress in shorts and cotton t-shirt, I would hope that mid winter in the Australian Alps such event does not happen. It is the seeming mildness of the weather that catches many tourists out. We as locals see people from WA planning to sleep out under the stars while walking the OLT. Bit like a Tassie walker heading inland in SA during summer planning to use only a yabbie straw and mug to get water a long the way. I tend to put great store in what the locals recommended rather than ridiculing them.

Tony the debate is not a lightweight good or bad and all things been equal the lighter something can be the better but all things are not equal so it becomes a set or choices in the trade-offs which is what is otherwise called life. This thread's OP was not about those trade off. The OP slammed unnamed experience Tassie walkers and then later ones narrowed the suspects down and gave minimal facts to understand what advice they gave and the reasons for it. Such an approach is sadly typical ACA and by default can not generate a meaningful discussion. Given that the people are known to the original poster then in the interest of a fair go maybe he will give them a chance to state what they said and why. Or conversely we can go around and around in circles and batter a few more Tassie locals, not named of course.

Cheers Brett

[photohiker]

A rule of thumb is for every 100 metres expect the temperature to drop by around one degree centigrade.

The lapse rate is 0.5C per 100m in damp air, and 1.0C per 100m in dry air. I've always been told to work on 0.7C as a rule of thumb

Interestingly, looking on wikipedia, this is the Adiabatic Lapse Rate - which refers to the temperature changes in a parcel of air moving through those elevation changes. I guess that's fair enough seeing that there are rarely still air conditions on the hills.

The alternative is the Environmental Lapse Rate which is described as "the rate of decrease of temperature with altitude in the stationary atmosphere at a given time and location" and it is 6.49 K(°C)/1,000 m up to 11,000m, so 0.65C per 100m. This Standard Atmosphere contains no moisture.

Doesn't really change anything as its in the same ballpark, but interesting stuff in any case.

[corvus]

for extractions of walkers with hypothermia from "extremely dangerous" places as the top of Marions lookout

Sorry Brett, when exactly did this happen?

Unless I'm mistaken, you seem to be making things up.

Joel,
As a Mountain guide you should be abreast of all of the incidents on your patch,if my memory serves me correctly it was a mother and son who pitched their tent almost adjacent to the track yet the SES walked past them in the conditions(no strobe on the EPIRB ) as previously mentioned this was quite recent.
I agree with Brett that a sorry or at least an would be appropriate especially from an experienced guide
corvus

[Tony]

Hi Brett,

As for the mildness of the Tassie climate this has probably resulted in nearly all under prepared experiencing nothing more than a colder, wetter and uncomfortable trip than would have otherwise been the case. However the same time this mildness lures people into a false sense of safety. You will see people heading from the coast for a day walk to the top of Cradle dress in shorts and cotton t-shirt, I would hope that mid winter in the Australian Alps such event does not happen. It is the seeming mildness of the weather that catches many tourists out. We as locals see people from WA planning to sleep out under the stars while walking the OLT. Bit like a Tassie walker heading inland in SA during summer planning to use only a yabbie straw and mug to get water a long the way. I tend to put great store in what the locals recommended rather than ridiculing them.

Cheers Brett

I do not know why you think these people are exclusive to Tasmania, I can assure you that the same people visit the Australian Alps, especially on the walk to Mt Mount Kosciuszko, even though at the start there are large notice boards warning of the dangers of walking in the alps at any time of the year and suitable gear to take, I still see people in shorts and cotton tee shirts with no pack, no warm clothes, no water and no food, no hat, no sunglasses and this was in the middle of January on a day with gale force winds and a wind chill factor of -15C.

Tony