Lake Rhona toilet issue

[PeterJ]

I have seen evidence of some appalling behavior over recent years and to my mind these people don't give a stuff about the environment. The only solution they are likely to take any he'd of is a toilet, otherwise they will continue to desecrate this and whole lot of other places.

I will post some issues as a separate topic shortly.

[lyndoor]

Hi Matty
Definitely go, it's a beautiful & amazing spot.
Yes there is an issue with toileting & just be prepared to go for a little walk to avoid the "creative" attempts at finding appropriate spots. We boiled our water from the Lake, just to make sure, but drank from the creek running from it as we returned home. No problems.
I'm reading with interest the ideas & views put forward on this topic but I'm afraid I don't have a lot of faith in implementing a carry out poolicy! We are talking about the big mix of walkers who venture into these more accessable places...& let's be honest, they are possibly the main offenders when it comes to not walking far enough away or digging deep enough. You think they will carry out their poo because the sign asks them to?
Change the zoning & put in a composting loo or choose another spot for the sputnick (perhaps just before you decend into the Lake? I'd hang on & make the trek to sit on a civilised loo!)

[PeterJ]

How strange. - my post does not appear here, but it shows in my profile. A glitch somewhere in the system. Anyway here is a copy.


I have seen evidence of some appalling behavior over recent years and to my mind these people don't give a stuff about the environment. The only solution they are likely to take any he'd of is a toilet, otherwise they will continue to desecrate this and whole lot of other places. I will post some issues under a separate topic shortly.

[johnw]

How strange. - my post does not appear here, but it shows in my profile. A glitch somewhere in the system...

Could be in Manage Drafts Peter, ie saved but not submitted?

[BarryJ]

As far as could/can I tell, it was definitely submitted. Last night, Peter was showing as the last poster in the thread but there was no post showing. It should have been the first post on page 2.

[myrtlegirl]

As well as a request that poo tubes be used near the lake, could a campsite be established a small distance away from the lake?

When we were out there in April 2010, we camped about 20 min walk from the lake, not very far from a creek. We did this as we'd heard about the toilet situation around the lake and wanted to avoid experiencing, or adding to, the problem (I believe the phrase is 'avoid excavation of a previous faecal burial event'). There will be people who are not prepared to use a poo tube, but they may be prepared to use another campsite. While this is moving the problem from one site to another, at least the lake may be spared the poo problem.

Poo tubes are a radical concept and they won't be taken up quickly, so a short-term fix could be to move the campsite.

[PeterJ]

......could a campsite be established a small distance away from the lake?

An excellent suggestion.

[vagrom]

Remember that if only some people do it, then you're already on a winner.
Slow take-up is anticipated and everyone's basically sympathetic towards a cleaner environment. And there's always peer (or pooer?) pressure in the end, so to speak.
Is there no way these "parcels" couldn't be dumped to compost (fly protected), in some sort of clever set-up, back down on the plain shortly after leaving the lake? It might offer a better incentive than having to lug the stuff all the way home.
There'll always be the "caught-short" situation where you're forced to go close by, but these exceptions may eventually grow to prove the rule: This is the way it's been done for years at Lake Rhona.

[Taurë-rana]

I agree with vagrom about the carry out some of the way - I've wondered about the feasability of this before before, specifically at places like Shelf Camp at Mt Anne - perhaps a biodegradable wrapping before putting into a tube to facilitate the easy removal from the tube? I would much prefer to carry a short way and then dispose of properly than carry the whole lot out.

[greyim]

Composting loo definately needs another look then... even if combined with a sputnik setup, would need emptying ALOT less often, maybe rarely... maybe it could be a "trial site" for paper work purposes!

[myrtlegirl]

In Hobart the council provide black plastic bags to pick up dog poo, and they are touted as being biodegradable. They are a bit stronger than a freezer bag, strong enough to withstand fingers scraping them a short distance across bitumen or similar rough surface. If they are suitably biodegradable, ie stay intact for the walk out to a dump point but degrade in a decent timeframe after that, they wouldn't be too bad to use.

[wander]

Having been a poo tuber for many years of snow camping I can comment from experience.

The simplest and cheapest poo tube is a 2 litre or 4 litre nalgene container. We have never had one leak yet but we also carry it inside a dry bag and pack it standing up in the pack.

A 4 litre seems to do the 2 of us for 3 nights just. We’ll sometimes take the 2 and 4 with the 2 as a back up. It is light and does not take much space.

We have experimented with dosing the tube with kitty litter and the like and come to the conclusion that the only thing required is a thick film of toilet cleaner. So after use and cleaning of the tube a couple of tablespoons of the cleaner is put in and left until the tube is next used.

With practice it is possible to poo into the tube in the tent vestibule. Very useful if there is a snow storm raging out side. Also useful if it will not let up raining.

Once the trip is over at home simply tip the contents in the toilet and flush. It may take a couple of pan and flush loads to empty a tube after a longer trip. This is the worst part of the exercise. I always set up so I am into the shower straight after. We have a large metal spoon set aside for assisting the material out of the tube if it is recalcitrant.

Once basically empty, ½ fill the tube with hot water, put the lid on and shake. A couple of these operations normally gets the last out and the tube ready for a does of cleaner and it is ready to go for next trip.

It is all very simple once done, you’ll wonder what the fuss is all about after trying it.

[tas-man]

[

Remember that if only some people do it, then you're already on a winner.
Slow take-up is anticipated and everyone's basically sympathetic towards a cleaner environment. And there's always peer (or pooer?) pressure in the end, so to speak.
<snip>

I agree that its a beginning of an attitude change that will take decades. I think back to the 1960's and 70's when "burn, bash, and bury" was the accepted practice for disposing of litter in the wilderness. Now, a generation later, we are horrified to watch scenes like these in the LWC's old movies that show airdrop rubbish being buried in alpine terrain on the Eastern Arthurs on a trip to Federation Peak!

Airdrop rubbish-1.jpg (119.06 KiB) Viewed 16403 times

Airdrop rubbish-2.jpg (130.49 KiB) Viewed 16403 times

Airdrop rubbish-3.jpg (141.37 KiB) Viewed 16403 times

[Binder]

G'day all

Thanks again for the debate, good to see a range of thoughts coming in, the main reason for me starting the topic was to see if there was any other ideas that I can look into.

We are working on a couple of the suggestions such as upgrading the walking track out of the catchment, possibility of a campsite out of the catchment, providing free tubes etc.

As Tas-man and others have indicated it will take time. We have to start thinking long term attitude change, and it has to start somewhere. As I indicated at the start, the easy fix is a Sputnik, but then the same problem will appear somewhere else ie Shelf Camp on Anne, Lonely Tarns, KCol at Mt Field, and that's just my patch. I have to look ten years down the track at what is the best long term solution for the area, and like the eventual moving away from the 'burn bash and bury' idea and the 'must have campfire at every campsite' I think the carry out idea, however gross it may seem to some, will eventually become the norm for our alpine areas, as it is in other parts of the world.

Anyway, thanks again for the input, and I will keep you up to speed with what line we go down. Nothing like poo to get a good debate going...

Stay safe

Binder

[Son of a Beach]

Having the camp site outside of the catchment seems like a very sensible approach. It doesn't eliminate the problem, but at least it moves the problem to somewhere that is less likely to result in water contamination, and if camping within the catchment area were to be banned altogether (or banned for people without toilet tubes), then having another easy-to-access campsite outside of the catchment would ensure compliance.

[tastrax]

I agree binder - who would have thought, even 5 years ago, that most responsible dog owners would be collecting their "dog droppings" for responsible disposal. If we can do it for our dogs we should be able to do it for ourselves.

Maybe a combination of biodegradable bags to collect the crap, to place in a tube will be a good starting point. The biodegradability of the bag is essential otherwise the issue with final disposal gets harder. Would also make it easier for a "quick dump out" in a container somewhere else (maybe at a road head to remove the chopper phase of the operation).

[Marwood]

I agree binder - who would have thought, even 5 years ago, that most responsible dog owners would be collecting their "dog droppings" for responsible disposal. If we can do it for our dogs we should be able to do it for ourselves.
Maybe a combination of biodegradable bags to collect the crap, to place in a tube will be a good starting point.

Arthur Schopenhauer once said: "All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

[Nuts]

As Tas-man and others have indicated it will take time. We have to start thinking long term attitude change, and it has to start somewhere. I think the carry out idea, however gross it may seem to some, will eventually become the norm for our alpine areas, as it is in other parts of the world.

Binder

I agree that the areas you mention may be best served by a carry out system where necessary.

I think though that any agreement with this should be seen as A measure in areas where it is necessary. In other parts of the world successful powered composting systems also work and the shift here to these being re-labelled 'fly out' systems where they haven't functioned properly seemed to happen in a rush. Not much accountability and a huge unexpected expense.

Along with changes in attitude come the inevitable regulation by 'frowning' that seems to occur. Taking the odd dump in little visited areas and on more remote walks without then having to carry it around with you (sometimes from day one), should be/is a perfectly natural act and would be preferred to still be 'acceptable' surely. Carrying it with you will never be 'desirable', just the next best thing to the alternative. I'd rather not have 'poo policing' as either a position description or a general 'attitude' by fellow walkers..

Ive lived in some of our bigger cities and understand the need and desire to control large numbers of people but the resulting practicalities should kept in perspective, left at the trail-heads wherever possible.

Designated areas where it Needs to occur (as Best practice), ok..

[Binder]

We would only look at targetting it in the alpine areas that get regular overnight visitation in a concentrated area, such as Rhona. If people then choose to expand the practice off their own bat, then hats off to them ! As you say Nuts, going in the scrub is about as natural as you can get and perfectly acceptable, but long term concentration in an environment where poo dosen't break down needs us (as users) to change our thinking a bit.

Cheers

[Nuts]

I understand that even if you can get it underground, the practice still isnt good enough.
Outside of these more fragile areas though; the people you mention will likely be the very ones that have done the thoughtful thing all along. Just so long as the attitude doesn't become unnecessarily... anal...

Anyhow, sounds like I generally agree (for what its worth).

[wander]

The bash burn and sort of bury is alive and well in Tas. We have come across lunch spots and camp spots where scumbags have clearly done this recently.

And I one case in early 2010 on the South Coast track the scumbags had just finished lunch and the fire was just burnign down when we walked in. I was so speachless once I had figureed out what had happened that they had packed up and left by the time I could think to say anything. The fire was right in the middle of the best site for a tent. Nice.

So I while agree with the concept that even if a few people get on the poo tube band wagon and the camp out of the lake catchment it will make a difference there is clearly still some basic education to be done.

While we on this sort topic I believe that folks should not swim in any of these types of lakes. We regularly read in these pages of a cooling and cleansing dip being taken in lake be it Rhona, Judd or Oberon. If I am correct that it is bad for people to swim in these types of lakes then information to this end could be leaked in a little larger and bolder print from Parks anlong with the other messges about no bash, burn bury and so on.

Woudl some enforcement (may be by helicopter gunship) be effective?

[Nuts]

Yer right... "Yes... We Are frowning at you...' SCUMBAG'..." Burn and burry is so last century

[vagrom]

That fireplace on the South Coast Track may in fact have been the last place in Tassie where it's still, (or was until recently(?)), permitted to light a fire in a national park. ["Scumbag" of course, has Prime Ministerial precedence; probably why it wasn't MoD'd.]
Page 13 of thread: "Game: Where is it (Aussie)" includes a pic of Rawson's Hut, where they've " tunnelled into the hillside" to solve their loo problem. A different sort of Poo Tube..? [Woops, no. It's at Rawson's Pass, near Mt Kozzi].
For anyone camping at Rhona enroute to the Spires, tubes may have to be stashed. You wouldn't want to get them nicked.

[johnw]

Page 13 of thread: "Game: Where is it (Aussie)" includes a pic of Rawson's Hut, where they've " tunnelled into the hillside" to solve their loo problem. A different sort of Poo Tube..? [Woops, no. It's at Rawson's Pass, near Mt Kozzi].

Photo is Lake Cootapatamba. The loo is about 2 km away just below Mt Kosi. That area gets a lot of traffic (100,000 bushwalkers hike to the summit each year). I think that solution might be overkill for a more remote location like Lake Rhona, not to mention the cost or visual impact .
Highest toilet in Australia at Rawsons Pass, Kosiuscko NP NSW

[north-north-west]

It's one of those areas where you need to start slowly and try a combination of solutions. But the 'carry it out' option is probably the best. People are always going to want to camp as close to the lake as possible.
Need to do something like this at Pandani Shelf too, although that's in a more convenient position for a sputnik.

[vagrom]

Pandani Shelf too?! It's getting hard to find somewhere for a quiet bog.

[Binder]

It's one of those areas where you need to start slowly and try a combination of solutions. But the 'carry it out' option is probably the best. People are always going to want to camp as close to the lake as possible.
Need to do something like this at Pandani Shelf too, although that's in a more convenient position for a sputnik.

A combination of solutions seems to be the best fit. Making people aware of the issue, and the way they can help reduce the problem is a critical step. I (and other folks) will be working on some signage, web material etc to hilight the problem, as well as sourcing gear required for the carry out option. We will also look at upgrading the track from the campsite out of the catchment to make it easier to get out when you have to...

I've been in contact with park staff in Scotland, New Zealand and the US where there is already a big move to the 'carry out' option. The uptake in these places has been difficult to assess, but the Scottish Rangers have done a weekly check of regular poo sites in alpine/tarn areas (over the last 3 years) and have found the drop in the number of deposits to be dramatic.

I am hoping to have something sorted by Spring, will keep you posted.

Stay safe out there.

Binder

[nakedape]

Binder,

Thanks for the display of respect for the walking community by consulting directly with us on this management issue. It appears that this could be a constructive way forward on many issues facing wilderness under parks management. Good luck finding a solution to this crappy problem (pun intended)

N

[s_gledhill]

Interesting thread, and something I've been thinking about a bit recently. My take on this is that those not willing to carry out are (hopefully) more likely to be the sort who frequent easy-to-access areas, or don't walk very often: on the other hand, adopters would be the types walking regularly and in other alpine areas where decomposition is slow. I would see not only a small win for Rhona, but one for alpine areas in general.

Simon

[durks]

I've been in contact with park staff in Scotland, New Zealand and the US where there is already a big move to the 'carry out' option. The uptake in these places has been difficult to assess, but the Scottish Rangers have done a weekly check of regular poo sites in alpine/tarn areas (over the last 3 years) and have found the drop in the number of deposits to be dramatic. ... [snip]...

I'm very interested to read that: I'm out in the hills regularly in Scotland, but haven't noticed any publicity at all about carrying out human crap. What did the Scottish rangers say they were doing exactly? And can you provide me with any links to further information? Thanks.

I think there are two main problems in Scotland:

1. There are a lot of mountain 'bothies' (i.e. huts) which inevitably concentrate overnight stays in particular areas. Very few of these have any toilets, so there are obvious consequences.

2. The Land Reform Act of 2003 now permits wild camping virtually anywhere. Whilst this is fine if people are well-behaved and considerate, it's leading to a lot of pressure on easily accessible areas where, for example, people set up camp for the weekend. I am worried about places like Glen Etive, for example.